Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of games?

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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#41 » by Respect My Mind » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:44 am

Bryant is not as smart as people make him out to be. Guys like Rondo, Lebron, Chris Paul and Wade have higher BBIQ. Kobe doesn't know how to position his teammates to get them good shots WHILE being a threat to score. He always in shoot first mode or pass first mode. Players with High BBIQ know how to do both at the same time.

Overrated overall player.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#42 » by tsherkin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:49 am

I'm not really sure why people are focusing on Kobe here. Yeah, he's gunning. He has always gunned when the rest of the team isn't getting it done, and he's typically shown that he scales back when the rest of the team is delivering.

For those of us watching the Knicks game, he had a couple of dim-witted shots, a couple of heat checks that went in... and he really didn't start doing that until it became clear that everyone else on the team was sucking ass in epic fashion. Did anyone else see Jamison front-rim that set 3 on the kick-out?

Does anyone else remember the Knicks shooting like 74% from the field in the first half? L.A.'s defense failed spectacularly because the Knicks were jamming threes, particularly Melo, who hit his first three attempts from downtown consecutively. L.A. scored 27 points in the first quarter, but they let up 41. The Lakers' offense was just fine for the most part, they rocked a team ORTG of 115.1 for that game. They dominated the offensive glass, they drew tons of fouls and shot over 86% at the line...

Let me remind you of some other things:

Jodie Meeks: 2-9 3P (3-11 FG)
Chris Duhon: 1-6 FG
Antawn Jamison: 1-3 FG (1-3 3P)
Robert Sacre, Jordan Hill, Earl Clark (combined 0-3)

There were some good performances. Meeks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but he was 4-4 at the line. Devin Ebanks went 5-11 FG, 0-3 3P and 5/6 FT. Metta didn't suck on offense for once, 7-15 FG, 3/6 3P and 6/7 FT, bringing it large. Dwight had 20 points on 11 shots and was 4/6 at the line. Kobe was actually hot from 3 and missing a lot of shots around the elbow as his larger problem.

Metta was 2-6 with a three and 2 FTs to go with a turnover in the first quarter. Jodie Meeks was 0-3 from downtown, though one of them was a 3/4-court heave at the end of the quarter; long story short, he sucked as a floor spacer all night. Jamison had all 3 of his shots in the first quarter.

See where I'm going with this? Kobe put up 12 points on 4/7 FG and 2/2 FT in the first quarter. He cooled down as the quarter wore on, but you'll notice that he was nearly 50% of their offense because of how much the rest of the squad was bricking it up? This isn't the marker of a guy who was gunning his team out of the game, the Lakers were struggling and he was shouldering the burden. Jodie Meeks isn't Steve Kerr and Metta didn't get going until later in the game.

Meantime, the Knicks shot over 53% from the field on the game and 48% from downtown. Melo scored 30 points in 23 minutes, then only played 5 minutes in the second half. The Knicks got 38 points combined out of JR Smith, Steve Novak and Rasheed Wallace off of the bench, on 8/13 shooting from downtown (Novak was 4/5). 38 points from 3 guys on the bench. Besides Kobe, the L.A. starters only scored 49 points, the bench 27. Think about that. The Lakers couldn't contain Chandler, who took 14 free throws. He only hit 8, but he took 14. On 5 FGA.

Why is this thread about Kobe? Why isn't it about the total incapacity for defense evidenced by the Lakers at basically every other position? The Knicks pushed the tempo, but it wasn't even transition that murdered L.A., they only gave up like 14 points in transition. They got owned because of the pretty ball movement display the Knicks put on, swinging the ball around the perimeter, penetrating around screens, kicking it back out and then burning the Lakers alive with three-point sniping.

So tell me again, why is this about Kobe? This thread should be about defense, and Kobe wasn't the lion's share of L.A.'s issues on that end of the floor.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#43 » by Respect My Mind » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 am

tsherkin wrote:I'm not really sure why people are focusing on Kobe here. Yeah, he's gunning. He has always gunned when the rest of the team isn't getting it done, and he's typically shown that he scales back when the rest of the team is delivering.

For those of us watching the Knicks game, he had a couple of dim-witted shots, a couple of heat checks that went in... and he really didn't start doing that until it became clear that everyone else on the team was sucking ass in epic fashion. Did anyone else see Jamison front-rim that set 3 on the kick-out?

Does anyone else remember the Knicks shooting like 74% from the field in the first half? L.A.'s defense failed spectacularly because the Knicks were jamming threes, particularly Melo, who hit his first three attempts from downtown consecutively. L.A. scored 27 points in the first quarter, but they let up 41. The Lakers' offense was just fine for the most part, they rocked a team ORTG of 115.1 for that game. They dominated the offensive glass, they drew tons of fouls and shot over 86% at the line...

Let me remind you of some other things:

Jodie Meeks: 2-9 3P (3-11 FG)
Chris Duhon: 1-6 FG
Antawn Jamison: 1-3 FG (1-3 3P)
Robert Sacre, Jordan Hill, Earl Clark (combined 0-3)

There were some good performances. Meeks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but he was 4-4 at the line. Devin Ebanks went 5-11 FG, 0-3 3P and 5/6 FT. Metta didn't suck on offense for once, 7-15 FG, 3/6 3P and 6/7 FT, bringing it large. Dwight had 20 points on 11 shots and was 4/6 at the line. Kobe was actually hot from 3 and missing a lot of shots around the elbow as his larger problem.

Metta was 2-6 with a three and 2 FTs to go with a turnover in the first quarter. Jodie Meeks was 0-3 from downtown, though one of them was a 3/4-court heave at the end of the quarter; long story short, he sucked as a floor spacer all night. Jamison had all 3 of his shots in the first quarter.

See where I'm going with this? Kobe put up 12 points on 4/7 FG and 2/2 FT in the first quarter. He cooled down as the quarter wore on, but you'll notice that he was nearly 50% of their offense because of how much the rest of the squad was bricking it up? This isn't the marker of a guy who was gunning his team out of the game, the Lakers were struggling and he was shouldering the burden. Jodie Meeks isn't Steve Kerr and Metta didn't get going until later in the game.

Meantime, the Knicks shot over 53% from the field on the game and 48% from downtown. Melo scored 30 points in 23 minutes, then only played 5 minutes in the second half. The Knicks got 38 points combined out of JR Smith, Steve Novak and Rasheed Wallace off of the bench, on 8/13 shooting from downtown (Novak was 4/5). 38 points from 3 guys on the bench. Besides Kobe, the L.A. starters only scored 49 points, the bench 27. Think about that. The Lakers couldn't contain Chandler, who took 14 free throws. He only hit 8, but he took 14. On 5 FGA.

Why is this thread about Kobe? Why isn't it about the total incapacity for defense evidenced by the Lakers at basically every other position? The Knicks pushed the tempo, but it wasn't even transition that murdered L.A., they only gave up like 14 points in transition. They got owned because of the pretty ball movement display the Knicks put on, swinging the ball around the perimeter, penetrating around screens, kicking it back out and then burning the Lakers alive with three-point sniping.

So tell me again, why is this about Kobe? This thread should be about defense, and Kobe wasn't the lion's share of L.A.'s issues on that end of the floor.


Kobe takes shots without even moving the ball first. The Lakers can make 5 straight trips down the floor and only 2 out of 5 people touch the ball. And you wonder why his teammates shoot so badly
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#44 » by tsherkin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:51 am

Respect My Mind wrote:Kobe takes shots without even moving the ball first. The Lakers can make 5 straight trips down the floor and only 2 out of 5 people touch the ball. And you wonder why his teammates shoot so badly


Yes, he does that now and again. It's his flaw, his shot selection. But no, it would be straight-up terribly inaccurate to say that his teammates shoot poorly because of it.

Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison were missing set 3s out of kick-outs, the exact kind of high-percentage shots that they need to be making. Lebron's teammates weren't in a very different boat in Cleveland, but Mo Williams and Boobie Gibson MADE those shots. Jamison didn't, even there and Meeks sucked in that game. Meeks is shooting almost 39% from 3 on the season. He has established a pattern of success from downtown that, while not elite, is still solid.

But in this particular game, Meeks was bricking up a storm the entire night, and he wasn't lacking for touches. 9 attempts from beyond the arc is a lot, and he really blew it. But as I said before, L.A.'s offense was still not the issue, which is what everyone here is missing. L.A. got FACE-OWNED by the Knicks in the first quarter because they couldn't defend a dead guy, let alone the hot-shooting Knicks. That had nothing to do with shot selection or teammates going cold or the volume of shots Kobe took.

I wonder if anyone has bothered to look beyond the numbers? We've seen a lot of "when Kobe does this, that happens;" has anyone looked at the first-quarter numbers of Kobe's teammates in those games where he's putting up a lot of shots? One wonders if there's a coincidental lack of success on there behalf, ja? Kobe has always fallen back on volume shooting when his teammates were struggling because, like MJ, he thinks he needs to shoulder the load and control the situation. And he's often right. His approach to doing so isn't the wisest, and inconsistency often follows, but he knows that he can get hot from 3 and that's at least part of his reasoning. Again, though, L.A. dropped 107 points on > 115 ORTG. They drew fouls, hit the offensive boards and made a strong accounting of themselves offensively.

They gave up 41 points in the first.

41 points.

41 points.

41 points.

The Knicks were 17/23 in the first quarter.

17/23, that's 73.9% FG. Melo hit 3 straight 3pt shots to open up the game. Defense was a MUCH bigger issue than anything to do with Kobe, this is pretty much irrefutable. The Knicks ran rough-shod over the Lakers so that even while they produced a strong offensive effort, they couldn't keep up. They were down by 20 in the first half and never had a chance after that. Think about that.

We're sitting here debating Kobe Bryant's issues with all of this other data in front of us? You can't ignore that and it's foolish to blame the performance of his teammates on Kobe's shot selection, especially given the types of shots that they were getting and the overall efficacy of the team's offense. The defense was ABYSMAL, which has been the story all year. L.A. is the 8th-ranked offense in the league right now at 108.1 ORTG, they're doing just fine there and this game was no different in that respect. Contrast that with their 18th-ranked defense, however, and we start to see the problem. Given the absence of Pau Gasol and the presence of Mike D'Antoni, this is hardly a surprise.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#45 » by Respect My Mind » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:05 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Respect My Mind wrote:Kobe takes shots without even moving the ball first. The Lakers can make 5 straight trips down the floor and only 2 out of 5 people touch the ball. And you wonder why his teammates shoot so badly


Yes, he does that now and again. It's his flaw, his shot selection. But no, it would be straight-up terribly inaccurate to say that his teammates shoot poorly because of it.

Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison were missing set 3s out of kick-outs, the exact kind of high-percentage shots that they need to be making. Lebron's teammates weren't in a very different boat in Cleveland, but Mo Williams and Boobie Gibson MADE those shots. Jamison didn't, even there and Meeks sucked in that game. Meeks is shooting almost 39% from 3 on the season. He has established a pattern of success from downtown that, while not elite, is still solid.

But in this particular game, Meeks was bricking up a storm the entire night, and he wasn't lacking for touches. 9 attempts from beyond the arc is a lot, and he really blew it. But as I said before, L.A.'s offense was still not the issue, which is what everyone here is missing. L.A. got FACE-OWNED by the Knicks in the first quarter because they couldn't defend a dead guy, let alone the hot-shooting Knicks. That had nothing to do with shot selection or teammates going cold or the volume of shots Kobe took.

I wonder if anyone has bothered to look beyond the numbers? We've seen a lot of "when Kobe does this, that happens;" has anyone looked at the first-quarter numbers of Kobe's teammates in those games where he's putting up a lot of shots? One wonders if there's a coincidental lack of success on there behalf, ja? Kobe has always fallen back on volume shooting when his teammates were struggling because, like MJ, he thinks he needs to shoulder the load and control the situation. And he's often right. His approach to doing so isn't the wisest, and inconsistency often follows, but he knows that he can get hot from 3 and that's at least part of his reasoning. Again, though, L.A. dropped 107 points on > 115 ORTG. They drew fouls, hit the offensive boards and made a strong accounting of themselves offensively.

They gave up 41 points in the first.

41 points.

41 points.

41 points.

The Knicks were 17/23 in the first quarter.

17/23, that's 73.9% FG. Melo hit 3 straight 3pt shots to open up the game. Defense was a MUCH bigger issue than anything to do with Kobe, this is pretty much irrefutable. The Knicks ran rough-shod over the Lakers so that even while they produced a strong offensive effort, they couldn't keep up. They were down by 20 in the first half and never had a chance after that. Think about that.

We're sitting here debating Kobe Bryant's issues with all of this other data in front of us? You can't ignore that and it's foolish to blame the performance of his teammates on Kobe's shot selection, especially given the types of shots that they were getting and the overall efficacy of the team's offense. The defense was ABYSMAL, which has been the story all year. L.A. is the 8th-ranked offense in the league right now at 108.1 ORTG, they're doing just fine there and this game was no different in that respect. Contrast that with their 18th-ranked defense, however, and we start to see the problem. Given the absence of Pau Gasol and the presence of Mike D'Antoni, this is hardly a surprise.


Defense is their biggest issue but you compound that problem with stagnant Offense. Kobe's bad one pass-one shot offense leads to semi-transition opportunities for the other team (harder to defend in transition). You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs...unless they're put next to a transcendent offensive catalyst (Wade, James, Rondo, Paul) Kobe is the one making 27 Million this year...Jodie Meeks wont even make 27 Million in his whole career.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#46 » by tsherkin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:18 pm

Respect My Mind wrote:Defense is their biggest issue but you compound that problem with stagnant Offense.


Not in this game, you didn't. L.A. scored 107 points, man, and they did it on a very strong team ORTG. Their offense was prolific and efficient in this one, especially after the first. You'll notice that Metta and Dwight got going after the first quarter and Kobe's shooting volume cooled down, yeah?

You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs


No, I'm not. He took three shots all game and shot a competent percentage from downtown for spacing. He was a non-factor after the first, and otherwise a defensive liability as always, but the other players I put down were much more of an issue. If you weren't dancing around the issue trying not to be wrong, you'd acknowledge that instead of knocking down a straw man.

...unless they're put next to a transcendent offensive catalyst (Wade, James, Rondo, Paul)


Jamison sucked next to Lebron as well.

Kobe is the one making 27 Million this year...Jodie Meeks wont even make 27 Million in his whole career.


Not relevant. Meeks took 9 3PA and bricked 7 of them, making him inefficient and useless in that game.

But again, you're still focusing on offense in a game where the L.A. offense wasn't the problem at all.

41 points on 74% in the first. That's what the defense gave up. L.A. was down 14 by the end of the first quarter and they never recovered, especially since they were -5 in the second quarter as well. So even after getting hot offensively in the second half while the Knicks cooled down and sat Melo, they still only got within 9 by going +6 and +3 in the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Defense was the problem and the game was closer than it might have been because the Knicks were sitting their hot primary scorer. More particularly, transition wasn't the reason that L.A. struggled defensively, it wasn't where they got burned. Dribble penetration and kick-outs leading to open 3s with weak close-outs were a MUCH bigger set of issues.

This is basic stuff. You've got zero standing room on this issue, Kobe was not at fault for this loss, nor is he the primary cause of the team's defensive woes. He's not a perfect player, for sure, and I'm the first one to harp on his shot selection, plus I've spent a good deal of time pointing out the inanity of some of his more recent All-Defensive selections... but he's not sabotaging the team. Their team-wide failure to communicate and rotate in a timely manner is a far bigger issue on defense than his gambling or his declining speed, etc.

Again, offense isn't the issue here, it's pretty clearly defense and Kobe was not the problem either.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#47 » by KDgoat » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:17 pm

The problem with Pau is that no one believes in him, not the fans and not the management. There's been Pau trade talks by the board and fans dumping every bad thing that happened to the Lakers in the past 2 years onto Pau Gasol.

His teammates need to support him and management needs to renew their confidence in the big man that was a crucial cog in the repeat championship machine. Play him away from that FT line. He's not Chris Bosh.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#48 » by marson » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:40 pm

To pass MJ's Scoring record of course. lol :lol:
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#49 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:48 pm

Respect My Mind wrote:You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs...


Well there you go. You could have just posted that and saved yourself a ton of time.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#50 » by TwentyOne920 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:04 pm

KDgoat wrote:The problem with Pau is that no one believes in him, not the fans and not the management. There's been Pau trade talks by the board and fans dumping every bad thing that happened to the Lakers in the past 2 years onto Pau Gasol.

His teammates need to support him and management needs to renew their confidence in the big man that was a crucial cog in the repeat championship machine. Play him away from that FT line. He's not Chris Bosh.


Agreed... the problems started when they decided Pau Gasol was to play power forward/outside big full time and hand the low-post duties solely to Bynum (and inherited by Howard). The reason the Lakers won championships was that they had Bynum as a third big even if he started since Gasol and Odom took precedence in the triangle.

Getting punked by Dirk Nowitzki in 2011 didn't help either, despite Gasol having one of his best seasons in a Lakers jersey prior to that playoff series.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#51 » by djay » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:34 pm

The Kobe shot attempt is irrelevant. The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team. This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket. Fact is Kobe hasn't done a good job of playmaking and instead going isolation, which in turn, hurt the team offensive flow and making everyone rhymes off. This also, in turn, affect their defense. There's a saying, when everyone feel involved on offense, they play better, rotate, try harder on defense. When you are a superstar making 27 millions dollar, you have to fill a void on this team. Kobe is too concentrated on scoring. If you put a healthy Wade or even a Jame Harden in replace of Kobe, this team would, at least, be .500. Fact is the Lakers needs someone to drive and kick and throw lobs to DH12, to give him easy bucket. Right now, they are not getting easy bucket and it affecting their defense.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#52 » by spearsy23 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:40 pm

djay wrote:The Kobe shot attempt is irrelevant. The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team. This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket. Fact is Kobe hasn't done a good job of playmaking and instead going isolation, which in turn, hurt the team offensive flow and making everyone rhymes off. This also, in turn, affect their defense. There's a saying, when everyone feel involved on offense, they play better, rotate, try harder on defense. When you are a superstar making 27 millions dollar, you have to fill a void on this team. Kobe is too concentrated on scoring. If you put a healthy Wade or even a Jame Harden in replace of Kobe, this team would, at least, be .500. Fact is the Lakers needs someone to drive and kick and throw lobs to DH12, to give him easy bucket. Right now, they are not getting easy bucket and it affecting their defense.

...Kobe isn't that and really never has been. Why does it suddenly fall on him to completely remake his game? That doesn't happen in the nba, guys don't just change who they are. Why not as Dwight to fill the playmaker void? Or artest? Or Meeks? It's because that's not who they are, but for some reason Kobe is suddenly supposed to be that guy?
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#53 » by tsherkin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:54 pm

djay wrote:The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team.


This is nonsense. You build around stars, you don't adapt your stars to the roster at hand, not to any large extent. Players can alter their games to some extent, but radically changing their games alters their competitive advantages and doesn't usually make sense. Kobe's a scorer, and he's been arguably the best scorer in the league to date this season, the way he's mixing it all up and hitting his J.

This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket.


Given the efficacy of the offense to date, I have to say that this is blatantly incorrect.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#54 » by Dr Pepper » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:54 pm

IQ is all about decision making and Kobe's IQ leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to getting the team involved. Even when Kobe scored his historic 81 points his teammates on the bench looked liked they didn't give a damn.

Kobe's just not that great of a playmaker when compared to the other elite players the NBA has seen but the Lakers real problems are defense, leadership, chemistry, and athleticism
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#55 » by tsherkin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:00 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
Kobe's just not that great of a playmaker when compared to the other elite players the NBA has seen but the Lakers real problems are defense, chemistry, and athleticism


Compared to whom?

PGs like Magic or players like Oscar and West, sure. There isn't a huge difference in playmaking between Kobe and someone like MJ, though. Stylistically, he isn't as capable of doing what Wade and LBJ did for years, spamming mid screens and pitching put to shooters. He also played in the triangle through his athletic prime, suppressing his raw APG.

Not sure where this argument comes from, really. He's got the same kind of shot selection issues that we see in the majority of high-volume scorers: heat checks, uber-confident jumpers in the face of the defense, etc. When his teammates are sucking, he lofts a lot more bombs. Not sure how that translates to him being much worse a playmaker than most of his non-outlier peers. He has his flaws and shot selection is certainly one, but obviously they aren't THAT bad. He wouldn't have 5 rings as a major player otherwise. MJ wasn't that much different, either, he just milked off-ball movement and superior physical tools more effectively, which is why he was noticeably better.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#56 » by Dr Pepper » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:08 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:
Kobe's just not that great of a playmaker when compared to the other elite players the NBA has seen but the Lakers real problems are defense, chemistry, and athleticism


Compared to whom?

PGs like Magic or players like Oscar and West, sure. There isn't a huge difference in playmaking between Kobe and someone like MJ, though. Stylistically, he isn't as capable of doing what Wade and LBJ did for years, spamming mid screens and pitching put to shooters. He also played in the triangle through his athletic prime, suppressing his raw APG.

Not sure where this argument comes from, really. He's got the same kind of shot selection issues that we see in the majority of high-volume scorers: heat checks, uber-confident jumpers in the face of the defense, etc. When his teammates are sucking, he lofts a lot more bombs. Not sure how that translates to him being much worse a playmaker than most of his non-outlier peers. He has his flaws and shot selection is certainly one, but obviously they aren't THAT bad. He wouldn't have 5 rings as a major player otherwise. MJ wasn't that much different, either, he just milked off-ball movement and superior physical tools more effectively, which is why he was noticeably better.


Compared to his peers like Wade, Manu and greats that were more fundamentally sound such as Magic, LeBron, etc. Kobe hoists up too many prayers while leaving open teamates, leaving them wondering why they ran down the court in the first place. Kobe is prone to bad basketball more than many other greats.

Kobe's shot selection and decision making on both ends of the court is one of his greatest weaknesses. Kobe often acts like a petulant teenager and is on the court to make a point like when he elects to basically not score at all or vice versa.

Honestly not sure where the counter argument that Kobe is a great playmaker comes from or that he's close to MJ especially after admitting its a weak part of his game. Also the point that fans make about Kobe only shooting when his team is sucking is misleading. 5 rings as a major player is great and all although his first ring he arguably wasn't, and having greats like Shaq, Phil Jackson, Tex Winters, Gasol, etc. probably were the real factors in the Lakers success. If Kobe was a more fundamentally sound player the Lakers would probably have had even more overall wins
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#57 » by tsherkin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:21 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:Compared to his peers like Wade, Manu and greats that were more fundamentally sound such as Magic, LeBron, etc.


Wade isn't better, he's more prolific, there's a difference. Manu is a better #2 or #3 player, sure, but he does it in limited minutes in a specific system and not shouldering the burden as a primary star. He is not one of the greats, not in the way that term is meant. He's a fantastic player, but not really in the same boat.


Kobe hoists up too many prayers while leaving open teamates, leaving them wondering why they ran down the court in the first place. Kobe is prone to bad basketball more than many other greats.


MJ did all of the same things until he had talent and Phil around him. Kobe is much the same way. A little worse, but not a ton so. Worse more for the fact that he's not as good as was MJ at finishing, more so than worse at recognizing and making plays for others.

Kobe is a great playmaker comes from


Didn't say he was great, only comparable to most of his peers.

having greats like Shaq, Phil Jackson, Tex Winters, Gasol, etc. probably were the real factors in the Lakers success.


Immaterial; all titles are won with talent and management influence.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#58 » by Dr Pepper » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:40 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:Compared to his peers like Wade, Manu and greats that were more fundamentally sound such as Magic, LeBron, etc.


Wade isn't better, he's more prolific, there's a difference. Manu is a better #2 or #3 player, sure, but he does it in limited minutes in a specific system and not shouldering the burden as a primary star. He is not one of the greats, not in the way that term is meant. He's a fantastic player, but not really in the same boat.


Kobe hoists up too many prayers while leaving open teamates, leaving them wondering why they ran down the court in the first place. Kobe is prone to bad basketball more than many other greats.


MJ did all of the same things until he had talent and Phil around him. Kobe is much the same way. A little worse, but not a ton so. Worse more for the fact that he's not as good as was MJ at finishing, more so than worse at recognizing and making plays for others.

Kobe is a great playmaker comes from


Didn't say he was great, only comparable to most of his peers.

having greats like Shaq, Phil Jackson, Tex Winters, Gasol, etc. probably were the real factors in the Lakers success.


Immaterial; all titles are won with talent and management influence.


Wade is a better playmaker because he makes the more fundamentally sound plays and is more willing to trust in his teammates than Kobe.

Manu minuter-per-minute has rivaled Kobe's impact although I don't want to sell Kobe's amazing durability and ability to play heavy minutes short. However Manu is able to have that impact while also being a more willing team player whether its involving the team or coming off the bench. Whereas Kobe has been described by Phil Jackson as being selfish and basically detrimental to even a stacked Lakers squad. Manu has been the primary star for the Spurs in some seasons and stretches (practically Finals co-MVP in 2005), and its not like Kobe's been the primary Laker for most of their championship success either, but I see what you're saying there and don't want to sell Kob'e stamina short.

Compared to pre-Phil MJ, old Kobe's decision making is still inferior and does not compare very well whether its on tape or looking at the boxscore averages. Even a 2001 Wizards MJ has a significantly better Assist/turnover than the current Kobe. Kobe never really developed his decision making to the levels other great playmakers have.

As for the immaterial point, I agree and disagree. Not all championship rings are equal and it depends on the specific squad but it is a franchise effort to win all the way.

In the end Kobe's leadership, IQ, decision making, playmaking, etc. whatever you want to call it isn't as elite as it should be. This is a guy that gets shat on by Phil Jackson and great players and is routinely called out for bad basketball by even current greats like Howard and Gasol. Kobe can score 81 points and his teammates and coach just flat out don't give a damn on the bench.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#59 » by NashtyNas » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:01 pm

Thats_my_chippy wrote:He's doing it because no one else on the Lakers can (in his opinion)...

That and the offense in Laker land right now is 'Give Kobe the Ball'.


In his opinion? What has anyone shown on the court to make Kobe Bryant, 5 time champion, feel that they can play?

Even if we give Dwight a pass on his free throws (we shouldn't, but that's another topic) he's been somewhat terrible in taking care of the ball, his conditioning is still not there, and where's the elite defense?

The rest of the squad isn't even worth mentioning, because they're all scrubs. Meeks has been hitting shots once in a while, same with Jamison. But they're missing far more than they're making, and NO ONE is playing any defense, INCLUDING Kobe.

No, it's not right for him to do what he's doing, but no one on that team can dare tell him that because their terrible effort and play is the root cause for this. The Lakers desperately need to get Nash back, that will keep the ball out of Kobe's hands a little more and will definitely help lift the play of the other guys, which in turn will calm Kobe the F down.
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Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of gam 

Post#60 » by JellosJigglin » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:22 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Respect My Mind wrote:You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs...


Well there you go. You could have just posted that and saved yourself a ton of time.


It appears he backed himself into a corner there, didn't he? :lol:
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