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Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of games?

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Post#46 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:18 am by tsherkin

Respect My Mind wrote:Defense is their biggest issue but you compound that problem with stagnant Offense.


Not in this game, you didn't. L.A. scored 107 points, man, and they did it on a very strong team ORTG. Their offense was prolific and efficient in this one, especially after the first. You'll notice that Metta and Dwight got going after the first quarter and Kobe's shooting volume cooled down, yeah?

You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs


No, I'm not. He took three shots all game and shot a competent percentage from downtown for spacing. He was a non-factor after the first, and otherwise a defensive liability as always, but the other players I put down were much more of an issue. If you weren't dancing around the issue trying not to be wrong, you'd acknowledge that instead of knocking down a straw man.

...unless they're put next to a transcendent offensive catalyst (Wade, James, Rondo, Paul)


Jamison sucked next to Lebron as well.

Kobe is the one making 27 Million this year...Jodie Meeks wont even make 27 Million in his whole career.


Not relevant. Meeks took 9 3PA and bricked 7 of them, making him inefficient and useless in that game.

But again, you're still focusing on offense in a game where the L.A. offense wasn't the problem at all.

41 points on 74% in the first. That's what the defense gave up. L.A. was down 14 by the end of the first quarter and they never recovered, especially since they were -5 in the second quarter as well. So even after getting hot offensively in the second half while the Knicks cooled down and sat Melo, they still only got within 9 by going +6 and +3 in the 3rd and 4th quarters.

Defense was the problem and the game was closer than it might have been because the Knicks were sitting their hot primary scorer. More particularly, transition wasn't the reason that L.A. struggled defensively, it wasn't where they got burned. Dribble penetration and kick-outs leading to open 3s with weak close-outs were a MUCH bigger set of issues.

This is basic stuff. You've got zero standing room on this issue, Kobe was not at fault for this loss, nor is he the primary cause of the team's defensive woes. He's not a perfect player, for sure, and I'm the first one to harp on his shot selection, plus I've spent a good deal of time pointing out the inanity of some of his more recent All-Defensive selections... but he's not sabotaging the team. Their team-wide failure to communicate and rotate in a timely manner is a far bigger issue on defense than his gambling or his declining speed, etc.

Again, offense isn't the issue here, it's pretty clearly defense and Kobe was not the problem either.
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Post#47 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:17 am by KDgoat

The problem with Pau is that no one believes in him, not the fans and not the management. There's been Pau trade talks by the board and fans dumping every bad thing that happened to the Lakers in the past 2 years onto Pau Gasol.

His teammates need to support him and management needs to renew their confidence in the big man that was a crucial cog in the repeat championship machine. Play him away from that FT line. He's not Chris Bosh.
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Post#48 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:40 am by jami0528

To pass MJ's Scoring record of course. lol :lol:
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Post#49 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:48 am by Sedale Threatt

Respect My Mind wrote:You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs...


Well there you go. You could have just posted that and saved yourself a ton of time.
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Post#50 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:04 am by TwentyOne920

KDgoat wrote:The problem with Pau is that no one believes in him, not the fans and not the management. There's been Pau trade talks by the board and fans dumping every bad thing that happened to the Lakers in the past 2 years onto Pau Gasol.

His teammates need to support him and management needs to renew their confidence in the big man that was a crucial cog in the repeat championship machine. Play him away from that FT line. He's not Chris Bosh.


Agreed... the problems started when they decided Pau Gasol was to play power forward/outside big full time and hand the low-post duties solely to Bynum (and inherited by Howard). The reason the Lakers won championships was that they had Bynum as a third big even if he started since Gasol and Odom took precedence in the triangle.

Getting punked by Dirk Nowitzki in 2011 didn't help either, despite Gasol having one of his best seasons in a Lakers jersey prior to that playoff series.
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Post#51 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:34 am by djay

The Kobe shot attempt is irrelevant. The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team. This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket. Fact is Kobe hasn't done a good job of playmaking and instead going isolation, which in turn, hurt the team offensive flow and making everyone rhymes off. This also, in turn, affect their defense. There's a saying, when everyone feel involved on offense, they play better, rotate, try harder on defense. When you are a superstar making 27 millions dollar, you have to fill a void on this team. Kobe is too concentrated on scoring. If you put a healthy Wade or even a Jame Harden in replace of Kobe, this team would, at least, be .500. Fact is the Lakers needs someone to drive and kick and throw lobs to DH12, to give him easy bucket. Right now, they are not getting easy bucket and it affecting their defense.
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Post#52 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:40 am by spearsy23

djay wrote:The Kobe shot attempt is irrelevant. The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team. This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket. Fact is Kobe hasn't done a good job of playmaking and instead going isolation, which in turn, hurt the team offensive flow and making everyone rhymes off. This also, in turn, affect their defense. There's a saying, when everyone feel involved on offense, they play better, rotate, try harder on defense. When you are a superstar making 27 millions dollar, you have to fill a void on this team. Kobe is too concentrated on scoring. If you put a healthy Wade or even a Jame Harden in replace of Kobe, this team would, at least, be .500. Fact is the Lakers needs someone to drive and kick and throw lobs to DH12, to give him easy bucket. Right now, they are not getting easy bucket and it affecting their defense.

...Kobe isn't that and really never has been. Why does it suddenly fall on him to completely remake his game? That doesn't happen in the nba, guys don't just change who they are. Why not as Dwight to fill the playmaker void? Or artest? Or Meeks? It's because that's not who they are, but for some reason Kobe is suddenly supposed to be that guy?
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Post#53 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:54 am by tsherkin

djay wrote:The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team.


This is nonsense. You build around stars, you don't adapt your stars to the roster at hand, not to any large extent. Players can alter their games to some extent, but radically changing their games alters their competitive advantages and doesn't usually make sense. Kobe's a scorer, and he's been arguably the best scorer in the league to date this season, the way he's mixing it all up and hitting his J.

This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket.


Given the efficacy of the offense to date, I have to say that this is blatantly incorrect.
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Post#54 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:54 am by Dr Pepper

IQ is all about decision making and Kobe's IQ leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to getting the team involved. Even when Kobe scored his historic 81 points his teammates on the bench looked liked they didn't give a damn.

Kobe's just not that great of a playmaker when compared to the other elite players the NBA has seen but the Lakers real problems are defense, leadership, chemistry, and athleticism
Kobe vs MJ "Clone Wars" NBA.com video:

Frosty wrote:Funny this is called Clone Wars because Kobe is like the second installment of the Star Wars series. It looked like Star Wars but came up short. But it did appeal to the kiddies.
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Post#55 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:00 am by tsherkin

Dr Pepper wrote:
Kobe's just not that great of a playmaker when compared to the other elite players the NBA has seen but the Lakers real problems are defense, chemistry, and athleticism


Compared to whom?

PGs like Magic or players like Oscar and West, sure. There isn't a huge difference in playmaking between Kobe and someone like MJ, though. Stylistically, he isn't as capable of doing what Wade and LBJ did for years, spamming mid screens and pitching put to shooters. He also played in the triangle through his athletic prime, suppressing his raw APG.

Not sure where this argument comes from, really. He's got the same kind of shot selection issues that we see in the majority of high-volume scorers: heat checks, uber-confident jumpers in the face of the defense, etc. When his teammates are sucking, he lofts a lot more bombs. Not sure how that translates to him being much worse a playmaker than most of his non-outlier peers. He has his flaws and shot selection is certainly one, but obviously they aren't THAT bad. He wouldn't have 5 rings as a major player otherwise. MJ wasn't that much different, either, he just milked off-ball movement and superior physical tools more effectively, which is why he was noticeably better.
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Post#56 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 am by Dr Pepper

tsherkin wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:
Kobe's just not that great of a playmaker when compared to the other elite players the NBA has seen but the Lakers real problems are defense, chemistry, and athleticism


Compared to whom?

PGs like Magic or players like Oscar and West, sure. There isn't a huge difference in playmaking between Kobe and someone like MJ, though. Stylistically, he isn't as capable of doing what Wade and LBJ did for years, spamming mid screens and pitching put to shooters. He also played in the triangle through his athletic prime, suppressing his raw APG.

Not sure where this argument comes from, really. He's got the same kind of shot selection issues that we see in the majority of high-volume scorers: heat checks, uber-confident jumpers in the face of the defense, etc. When his teammates are sucking, he lofts a lot more bombs. Not sure how that translates to him being much worse a playmaker than most of his non-outlier peers. He has his flaws and shot selection is certainly one, but obviously they aren't THAT bad. He wouldn't have 5 rings as a major player otherwise. MJ wasn't that much different, either, he just milked off-ball movement and superior physical tools more effectively, which is why he was noticeably better.


Compared to his peers like Wade, Manu and greats that were more fundamentally sound such as Magic, LeBron, etc. Kobe hoists up too many prayers while leaving open teamates, leaving them wondering why they ran down the court in the first place. Kobe is prone to bad basketball more than many other greats.

Kobe's shot selection and decision making on both ends of the court is one of his greatest weaknesses. Kobe often acts like a petulant teenager and is on the court to make a point like when he elects to basically not score at all or vice versa.

Honestly not sure where the counter argument that Kobe is a great playmaker comes from or that he's close to MJ especially after admitting its a weak part of his game. Also the point that fans make about Kobe only shooting when his team is sucking is misleading. 5 rings as a major player is great and all although his first ring he arguably wasn't, and having greats like Shaq, Phil Jackson, Tex Winters, Gasol, etc. probably were the real factors in the Lakers success. If Kobe was a more fundamentally sound player the Lakers would probably have had even more overall wins
Kobe vs MJ "Clone Wars" NBA.com video:

Frosty wrote:Funny this is called Clone Wars because Kobe is like the second installment of the Star Wars series. It looked like Star Wars but came up short. But it did appeal to the kiddies.
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Post#57 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:21 am by tsherkin

Dr Pepper wrote:Compared to his peers like Wade, Manu and greats that were more fundamentally sound such as Magic, LeBron, etc.


Wade isn't better, he's more prolific, there's a difference. Manu is a better #2 or #3 player, sure, but he does it in limited minutes in a specific system and not shouldering the burden as a primary star. He is not one of the greats, not in the way that term is meant. He's a fantastic player, but not really in the same boat.


Kobe hoists up too many prayers while leaving open teamates, leaving them wondering why they ran down the court in the first place. Kobe is prone to bad basketball more than many other greats.


MJ did all of the same things until he had talent and Phil around him. Kobe is much the same way. A little worse, but not a ton so. Worse more for the fact that he's not as good as was MJ at finishing, more so than worse at recognizing and making plays for others.

Kobe is a great playmaker comes from


Didn't say he was great, only comparable to most of his peers.

having greats like Shaq, Phil Jackson, Tex Winters, Gasol, etc. probably were the real factors in the Lakers success.


Immaterial; all titles are won with talent and management influence.
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Post#58 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:40 am by Dr Pepper

tsherkin wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:Compared to his peers like Wade, Manu and greats that were more fundamentally sound such as Magic, LeBron, etc.


Wade isn't better, he's more prolific, there's a difference. Manu is a better #2 or #3 player, sure, but he does it in limited minutes in a specific system and not shouldering the burden as a primary star. He is not one of the greats, not in the way that term is meant. He's a fantastic player, but not really in the same boat.


Kobe hoists up too many prayers while leaving open teamates, leaving them wondering why they ran down the court in the first place. Kobe is prone to bad basketball more than many other greats.


MJ did all of the same things until he had talent and Phil around him. Kobe is much the same way. A little worse, but not a ton so. Worse more for the fact that he's not as good as was MJ at finishing, more so than worse at recognizing and making plays for others.

Kobe is a great playmaker comes from


Didn't say he was great, only comparable to most of his peers.

having greats like Shaq, Phil Jackson, Tex Winters, Gasol, etc. probably were the real factors in the Lakers success.


Immaterial; all titles are won with talent and management influence.


Wade is a better playmaker because he makes the more fundamentally sound plays and is more willing to trust in his teammates than Kobe.

Manu minuter-per-minute has rivaled Kobe's impact although I don't want to sell Kobe's amazing durability and ability to play heavy minutes short. However Manu is able to have that impact while also being a more willing team player whether its involving the team or coming off the bench. Whereas Kobe has been described by Phil Jackson as being selfish and basically detrimental to even a stacked Lakers squad. Manu has been the primary star for the Spurs in some seasons and stretches (practically Finals co-MVP in 2005), and its not like Kobe's been the primary Laker for most of their championship success either, but I see what you're saying there and don't want to sell Kob'e stamina short.

Compared to pre-Phil MJ, old Kobe's decision making is still inferior and does not compare very well whether its on tape or looking at the boxscore averages. Even a 2001 Wizards MJ has a significantly better Assist/turnover than the current Kobe. Kobe never really developed his decision making to the levels other great playmakers have.

As for the immaterial point, I agree and disagree. Not all championship rings are equal and it depends on the specific squad but it is a franchise effort to win all the way.

In the end Kobe's leadership, IQ, decision making, playmaking, etc. whatever you want to call it isn't as elite as it should be. This is a guy that gets shat on by Phil Jackson and great players and is routinely called out for bad basketball by even current greats like Howard and Gasol. Kobe can score 81 points and his teammates and coach just flat out don't give a damn on the bench.
Kobe vs MJ "Clone Wars" NBA.com video:

Frosty wrote:Funny this is called Clone Wars because Kobe is like the second installment of the Star Wars series. It looked like Star Wars but came up short. But it did appeal to the kiddies.
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Post#59 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:01 pm by I_Socrates

Thats_my_chippy wrote:He's doing it because no one else on the Lakers can (in his opinion)...

That and the offense in Laker land right now is 'Give Kobe the Ball'.


In his opinion? What has anyone shown on the court to make Kobe Bryant, 5 time champion, feel that they can play?

Even if we give Dwight a pass on his free throws (we shouldn't, but that's another topic) he's been somewhat terrible in taking care of the ball, his conditioning is still not there, and where's the elite defense?

The rest of the squad isn't even worth mentioning, because they're all scrubs. Meeks has been hitting shots once in a while, same with Jamison. But they're missing far more than they're making, and NO ONE is playing any defense, INCLUDING Kobe.

No, it's not right for him to do what he's doing, but no one on that team can dare tell him that because their terrible effort and play is the root cause for this. The Lakers desperately need to get Nash back, that will keep the ball out of Kobe's hands a little more and will definitely help lift the play of the other guys, which in turn will calm Kobe the F down.
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Post#60 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:22 pm by JellosJigglin

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Respect My Mind wrote:You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs...


Well there you go. You could have just posted that and saved yourself a ton of time.


It appears he backed himself into a corner there, didn't he? :lol:
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Post#61 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:21 pm by va-mos

Dr Pepper wrote: If Kobe was a more fundamentally sound player the Lakers would probably have had even more overall wins


Exactly. There is a reason why Laker fans (and Artest) begin each season expecting 70 wins and begin each playoffs expecting to sweep every series. On paper, a superstar with a supporting cast like Gasol/Bynum (or Gasol/Dwight) should be winning everything. Instead they were taken to 7 games by the ailing Celtics, and were trailing by double-digits for most of Game 7 in LA.

The thing I want to know is, if Kobe is a very good player then why is he shooting around 40% in each NBA Finals? Sure, people say "he won the rings, so what does it matter.....?" but he won with Shaq's prime form, then Shaq left and LA missed the playoffs one year, and were booted by Phoenix in the 1st Round, twice (including a game 7 disaster). Then they got Gasol, and the rest is history.
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Post#62 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:07 pm by Respect My Mind

JellosJigglin wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:
Respect My Mind wrote:You are trying to blame things on 40 year old Jamison and a guy who got cut by the 76'ers. Scrubs will be scrubs...


Well there you go. You could have just posted that and saved yourself a ton of time.


It appears he backed himself into a corner there, didn't he? :lol:


What are you homers laughing about? I said what I said because you can make these scrubs serviceable if you MAKE PLAYS FOR THEM. If not they will just be scrubs. And because miraculously Kobe has found a way to be ball dominant without being a play maker, you are sad because the team is scrubby?
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Post#63 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:46 pm by tsherkin

Respect My Mind wrote:What are you homers laughing about? I said what I said because you can make these scrubs serviceable if you MAKE PLAYS FOR THEM.


1) You're wrong.

Jamison was no better for Lebron; he blew chunks in the playoffs and was wretched on defense. Lebron is a noted playmaker and Twan was still a brick-layer.

2) You're looking to Jamison as an issue when he was merely one example among many I gave...

While blatantly ignoring that LA is the 8th-best offense in the league and scored 107 points in that game.

Offense is NOT the problem!

And if the players are that stupid that, in a game where they were PLENTY involved offensively, they STILL didn't hustle on D, then they are totally worthless contracts independent of what Kobe is or isn't doing.

Again, in the game being discussed, there was no issue with getting the peripheral players involved. Guys got tons of shots, but Kobe, Metta, Dwight and Ebanks carried the team's offense and the defense was ABOMINABLE. Let this register.

I said it before, but 41 points on 74% FG is APPALLINGLY bad and that's the result of New York ripping them apart from the word "go," not because of Kobe's play.
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Post#64 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:00 pm by Respect My Mind

tsherkin wrote:
Respect My Mind wrote:What are you homers laughing about? I said what I said because you can make these scrubs serviceable if you MAKE PLAYS FOR THEM.


1) You're wrong.

Jamison was no better for Lebron; he blew chunks in the playoffs and was wretched on defense. Lebron is a noted playmaker and Twan was still a brick-layer.

2) You're looking to Jamison as an issue when he was merely one example among many I gave...

While blatantly ignoring that LA is the 8th-best offense in the league and scored 107 points in that game.

Offense is NOT the problem!

And if the players are that stupid that, in a game where they were PLENTY involved offensively, they STILL didn't hustle on D, then they are totally worthless contracts independent of what Kobe is or isn't doing.

Again, in the game being discussed, there was no issue with getting the peripheral players involved. Guys got tons of shots, but Kobe, Metta, Dwight and Ebanks carried the team's offense and the defense was ABOMINABLE. Let this register.

I said it before, but 41 points on 74% FG is APPALLINGLY bad and that's the result of New York ripping them apart from the word "go," not because of Kobe's play.


You can't judge an offense purely just on how many points are scored. The offense is LEADS to bad floor balance because Kobe doesn't shoot within any kind of sets, he arbitrarily decides to shoot no matter where he or his teammates are on the floor. None of his teammates know whether they should be crashing the boards, getting back on D to provide floor balance, spacing the floor on the shot or cutting to the basket. Thus you have players out of position and cross matched when there is a miss. The bad Kobe offense LEADS to transition opportunities for the other team. Kobe has come out himself and said Transition D is their Achilles heel.

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Post#65 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:05 pm by tsherkin

Respect My Mind wrote:You can't judge an offense purely just on how many points are scored. The offense is LEADS to bad floor balance because Kobe doesn't shoot within any kind of sets, he arbitrarily decides to shoot no matter where he or his teammates are on the floor.


Repeating a comment doesn't make it any more true.

In the game we're talking about, what you're saying did not happen. L.A. had breadth in offense, strong team efficiency and played well. They did not give up a ton of buckets in transition, they got torn apart in the half-court.

Kobe has come out himself and said Transition D is their Achilles heel.


And it's been a problem at times in other games. It was not against the Knicks.
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