Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron

Moderators: Domejandro, infinite11285, Harry Garris, ken6199, Dirk, bisme37, KingDavid, bwgood77, zimpy27, cupcakesnake

tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,413
And1: 19,952
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#201 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:30 pm

StephNYKurry wrote:It's immaterial to you, but not me and apparently not Kobe.


He's making an argument about who he finds more difficult to guard. Given how little he does so and how much less he's played Lebron than Melo, I'm not inclined to put a lot of weight into what he has to say here... But it's also an opinion of an individual matchup for a single defensive player with good frontcourt support behind him and Lebron has typically outperformed Melo. It's possible that he thinks Melo's wider, less effective array of moves made Kobe think more on D and presented a greater challenge.

Where people are erring, however, is trying to extend that to mean that Melo is a better scorer than Lebron. That's not what Kobe said.

Efficiency at scoring the basketball says nothing of your proficiency at scoring the basketball.


That's definitively wrong. Proficiency means "an advanced degree of competence," not "can do a wide array of things at average effectiveness."

It's not a descriptor of skill breadth but rather effectiveness at scoring, which are very different.

Shaq is more efficient than Tim Duncan, does Shaq therefore have better post skills?


Terrible example. Shaq's POST skills are comparable to Duncan, his effectiveness and efficiency driven by his superior physical tools. Duncan is also a better FT shooter and had a 14-foot J that he's now extended to 20 feet... But he's never been able to score consistently to the same extent as Shaq, who was always a more imposing offensive force.

More particularly, again, no one is translating efficiency to skill breadth, only you. It is irrelevant if the lesser versatility doesn't stop a player from scoring a comparable (or in the cases of Lebron/Shaq, GREATER) volume at comparable/greater efficiency.

If you are going to teach a young basketball player how to score the basketball, who would you have teach him, Lebron or Kobe/Carmelo?


Lebron, no hesitation. Kobe has some of the worst shot selection I've ever seen. Melo isn't far behind because they abuse and overuse the 3pt shot. Lebron is a far superior playmaker to either and is a more willing passer than Kobe, who plays hero-ball too often. He is still a great player, of course, but as far as fundamentals, Lebron is actually a more fundamental player than either. Kobe and Melo have prettier games and are more willing to shoot through slumps, which aren't actually meaningful or positive traits.
Xekana
Senior
Posts: 589
And1: 12
Joined: Nov 07, 2012
     

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#202 » by Xekana » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:40 pm

BayAreaBully wrote:
JellosJigglin wrote:
nbhadja wrote:Lebron is easily a better scorer than Melo. He scores more PPG and has a better FG% and is more efficient. There is no comparison.


Has nothing to do with what Kobe said. Lebron is like the Shaq of perimeter players. You know what's coming and you still can't stop it. Carmelo may not be as dominant but he's more versatile, so as a defender you aren't so sure what he's going to throw at you.


What difference does it make if they know its coming or not? If anything that makes a stronger case for LeBron. If what you're saying is true (that all he does is bumrsh the basket) and they cant stop it than that means he always gets the shot he wants. Scoring is about putting the all in the basket. Melo might have the "prettiest" offensive game in the league but that hasn't and wont get him a ring.

What do rings have to do with this?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,413
And1: 19,952
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#203 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:44 pm

Xekana wrote:What do rings have to do with this?


In brief, he's saying that Melo's game is more fun to watch but Lebron's is better for winning games.
Xekana
Senior
Posts: 589
And1: 12
Joined: Nov 07, 2012
     

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#204 » by Xekana » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:46 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Lebron, no hesitation. Kobe has some of the worst shot selection I've ever seen. Melo isn't far behind because they abuse and overuse the 3pt shot. Lebron is a far superior playmaker to either and is a more willing passer than Kobe, who plays hero-ball too often. He is still a great player, of course, but as far as fundamentals, Lebron is actually a more fundamental player than either. Kobe and Melo have prettier games and are more willing to shoot through slumps, which aren't actually meaningful or positive traits.

In terms of scoring alone, I would take Melo. As others have said, Melo has more ways to actually teach someone to score, and the person can use the one they are most comfortable with. Overall offense though, probably LBJ.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
User avatar
StephNYKurry
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 2,198
Joined: May 11, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#205 » by StephNYKurry » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:48 pm

BayAreaBully wrote:
JellosJigglin wrote:
nbhadja wrote:Lebron is easily a better scorer than Melo. He scores more PPG and has a better FG% and is more efficient. There is no comparison.


Has nothing to do with what Kobe said. Lebron is like the Shaq of perimeter players. You know what's coming and you still can't stop it. Carmelo may not be as dominant but he's more versatile, so as a defender you aren't so sure what he's going to throw at you.


What difference does it make if they know its coming or not? If anything that makes a stronger case for LeBron. If what you're saying is true (that all he does is bumrsh the basket) and they cant stop it than that means he always gets the shot he wants. Scoring is about putting the all in the basket. Melo might have the "prettiest" offensive game in the league but that hasn't and wont get him a ring.


We'll agree to disagree, don't have the energy to respond to all of that. I don't want to jump to conclusions, because I'm probably wrong, but it doesn't seem like you played the game very much. When I say proficient, im talking about footwork and positioning. You continue to bring everything back to statistics and for this particular argument, I dont really get the reliance on statistics. If you think Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe, I don't know what to tell you. You're trying to marginalize these moves that Melo and Kobe execute and I'm not buying it. Sure, they don't make those shots all the time, but they are shots and moves that need to be apart of your game as a scorer, especially when you don't have the athleticism of a Lebron.

The mentioning of Lebron's passing and shot selection is also irrelevant to this conversation. We are talking about the development of a scoring arsenal. There's a reason that Lebron watched tape of Kobe.

If I wanted my son to be a better scorer, I'm having him learn one dribble pull-ups, usage of the pump fakes, hesitations, half-spins, shoulder fakes, and other moves from Carmelo and Kobe, not Lebron.
What do I care...it's rigged anyway
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,413
And1: 19,952
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#206 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:54 pm

Xekana wrote:In terms of scoring alone, I would take Melo. As others have said, Melo has more ways to actually teach someone to score, and the person can use the one they are most comfortable with.


Mmm. But he's a bad lesson, because he does a lot of things, is less effective in most of them and has a weaker overall result.

Realistically, you want to teach a perimeter guy off-ball movement, develop a set shot to use spotting up around screens and how to use a PnR. You want to use Kobe and Melo in some areas as a plus, and as iconic examples of what NOT to do in others. If your player has size, you want to use various guys (Melo and Kobe among them, along with Pierce and Wade) to show how to use the post as a wing.

Or, you know, Oscar Robertson.

There is no one example player you want to use, really, because it all depends on physical tools. Melo shoots too many dumb shots to be a great example. Again, doing a lot of things really well is great.

Doing a lot of things at average efficiency looks nice, but isn't a better choice than doing a few things REALLY well. Melo, like Kobe, is WAY too free about launching bad, contested jumpers or flat-footed threes from 26+ feet. In a given quarter or half where you're hot, that's not always awful but as a long-term strategy, it's going to get you bricking it up more often than not. Those two are awful examples of 3pt usage.

I'd show guys Jordan, Oscar, West. Specific moves from dozens of different players. And I'd choose (and do choose, since I still do a lot of developmental coaching) Lebron over Melo/Kobe for an example of an offensive player every time, I'd just stress shooting drills a little more. Lebron isn't Rondo, though, he does have a mid-range and perimeter J and he is neither shy about using them nor incapable of dominating with them at times.
User avatar
StephNYKurry
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 2,198
Joined: May 11, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#207 » by StephNYKurry » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:03 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Xekana wrote:In terms of scoring alone, I would take Melo. As others have said, Melo has more ways to actually teach someone to score, and the person can use the one they are most comfortable with.


Mmm. But he's a bad lesson, because he does a lot of things, is less effective in most of them and has a weaker overall result.

Realistically, you want to teach a perimeter guy off-ball movement, develop a set shot to use spotting up around screens and how to use a PnR. You want to use Kobe and Melo in some areas as a plus, and as iconic examples of what NOT to do in others. If your player has size, you want to use various guys (Melo and Kobe among them, along with Pierce and Wade) to show how to use the post as a wing.

Or, you know, Oscar Robertson.

There is no one example player you want to use, really, because it all depends on physical tools. Melo shoots too many dumb shots to be a great example. Again, doing a lot of things really well is great.

Doing a lot of things at average efficiency looks nice, but isn't a better choice than doing a few things REALLY well. Melo, like Kobe, is WAY too free about launching bad, contested jumpers or flat-footed threes from 26+ feet. In a given quarter or half where you're hot, that's not always awful but as a long-term strategy, it's going to get you bricking it up more often than not. Those two are awful examples of 3pt usage.

I'd show guys Jordan, Oscar, West. Specific moves from dozens of different players. And I'd choose (and do choose, since I still do a lot of developmental coaching) Lebron over Melo/Kobe for an example of an offensive player every time, I'd just stress shooting drills a little more. Lebron isn't Rondo, though, he does have a mid-range and perimeter J and he is neither shy about using them nor incapable of dominating with them at times.


You just wrote that entire thing based on shot selection and no one here has questioned that. Scoring skill set and IQ are not one in the same.

I'll put it this way, if Lebron had his own IQ, and Kobe's polish scoring wise, don't you think he's be an even better player?
What do I care...it's rigged anyway
MisterWestside
Starter
Posts: 2,449
And1: 596
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#208 » by MisterWestside » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:09 pm

StephNYKurry wrote:You just wrote that entire thing based on shot selection and no one here has questioned that. Scoring skill set and IQ are not one in the same.


How is shot selection not relevant in scoring ability? Being able to hoist up a reverse pivot jumper over two defenders might seem more "polished" and get you on SportsCenter, but is it actually more practical than a simple jab step and drive-by for the lay-up?
User avatar
StephNYKurry
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 2,198
Joined: May 11, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#209 » by StephNYKurry » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
StephNYKurry wrote:You just wrote that entire thing based on shot selection and no one here has questioned that. Scoring skill set and IQ are not one in the same.


How is shot selection not relvant in scoring ability? Being able to hoist up a reverse pivot jumper over two defenders might seem more "polished" and get you on SportsCenter, but is it actually more practical than a simple jab step and drive-by for the lay-up?


I'm done. Have a good one fellas
What do I care...it's rigged anyway
User avatar
StephNYKurry
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 2,198
Joined: May 11, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#210 » by StephNYKurry » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
StephNYKurry wrote:You just wrote that entire thing based on shot selection and no one here has questioned that. Scoring skill set and IQ are not one in the same.


How is shot selection not relvant in scoring ability? Being able to hoist up a reverse pivot jumper over two defenders might seem more "polished" and get you on SportsCenter, but is it actually more practical than a simple jab step and drive-by for the lay-up?


I'm done. Have a good one fellas
What do I care...it's rigged anyway
User avatar
StephNYKurry
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 2,198
Joined: May 11, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#211 » by StephNYKurry » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
StephNYKurry wrote:You just wrote that entire thing based on shot selection and no one here has questioned that. Scoring skill set and IQ are not one in the same.


How is shot selection not relvant in scoring ability? Being able to hoist up a reverse pivot jumper over two defenders might seem more "polished" and get you on SportsCenter, but is it actually more practical than a simple jab step and drive-by for the lay-up?


I'm done. Have a good one fellas
What do I care...it's rigged anyway
User avatar
_Game7_
Veteran
Posts: 2,552
And1: 1,415
Joined: Sep 05, 2011
Location: CT-OH-WA
     

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#212 » by _Game7_ » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 pm

nbhadja wrote:Lebron is easily a better scorer than Melo. He scores more PPG and has a better FG% and is more efficient. There is no comparison.

This. Melo has more moves, and might be more of a "pure scorer". That's where it ends.
Exodus wrote:I think Kyrie Irving in the best player on the team to be honest
User avatar
MaliBrah
RealGM
Posts: 19,753
And1: 4,303
Joined: Feb 03, 2011
   

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#213 » by MaliBrah » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:22 pm

are people really arguing melo is the better scorer? as its already been mentioned , lebron puts up more points , and is more efficient. He'd put up even more points if passing a lot wasnt in his game.

Basketball isnt a fashion show or beauty pageant ,basketball is putting the ball in the basket . Melo's scoring game is prettier but lebrons is more effective on close to all fronts.
User avatar
DieHardBallFan
Junior
Posts: 367
And1: 27
Joined: Aug 24, 2012

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#214 » by DieHardBallFan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:31 pm

Since the topic was eventually closed I will post my comment here

Ok. So the recent Kobe comment has blown up in the media. Many seem to agree with him.

The problem I have here is how they are putting being "guarded" into a box. Ofcourse we can all agree at this point Carmelo is playing as a better scorer than Lebron. This is fact. But there is so much more to guarding a player then stopping them from scoring.

Lebron James entire attitude and goal on offense is "Get this ball into the basket some way".

There is currently only a few if any players that can shut Lebron down on MULTIPLE possesion when posted up or driving to the basket, which is the least of this argument. The thing is though Lebron rarely is looking to score, he is almost unstoppable at taking a player, forcing that player to lock in D and then almost magnetically drawing a double and passing over the head of almost anyone on him, accurate, fast, powerful and at the perfect time to create a shot. I feel this needs to be included when you are talking about guarding a guy. This is without mentioning on when Lebron wants to get to the offensive board, create trouble down low, knock out or grab the board he can. All of which should be considered when talking about guarding an offensive player.

Carmelo, he can be forced into a bad pass. He can be forced out of the post and off of a drive into a jump shot, while the jump shot is very good, it is still holding the offensive player to a low percentage shot. Lebron rarely takes a low percentage shot at this point in his career. He has even went as far as to take only 1-2 three's a game sometimes none.
ssenbonzakura
Senior
Posts: 510
And1: 189
Joined: Apr 20, 2010

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#215 » by ssenbonzakura » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:37 pm

A defender has two main jobs:
1. Prevent whoever he's guarding from scoring or scoring efficiently
2. Prevent whoever he's guarding from making passes that lead to another person scoring, ie prevent assists.
Since they've been in the league LeBron has consistently scored more than Melo, and by some margin too. Lebron has also provided more assists than Melo, again by a very considerable margin. This suggests to me that Lebron is by far the tougher cover. That shouldn't even be an argument. Kobe saying Melo is the tougher cover is him just expressing his opinion, and his opinion doesn't have to be right. In this case it's not.
BayAreaBully
Sophomore
Posts: 134
And1: 2
Joined: May 12, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#216 » by BayAreaBully » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:44 pm

So good shot selection and efficiency arent seen as a good things anymore? Aesthetics do not win games. Melo is having a great year ive just heard "melo is the best scorer" too many times over the years and will never agree with it unless he proves it. Just my opinion and im not going to tell people who disagree that "they must not have played ball" because im not a wimp
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,413
And1: 19,952
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#217 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:48 pm

StephNYKurry wrote:You just wrote that entire thing based on shot selection and no one here has questioned that. Scoring skill set and IQ are not one in the same.

I'll put it this way, if Lebron had his own IQ, and Kobe's polish scoring wise, don't you think he's be an even better player?


Given that this quote evidences some of the most reprehensibly absent understanding of the game of basketball and that you've continued to make ludicrous statements that aren't connected with what's being said, I'm not going to respond to you any further, since you clearly have no clue about the things you're trying to discuss.
gethigh
Banned User
Posts: 3,100
And1: 70
Joined: Mar 11, 2012

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#218 » by gethigh » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:51 pm

Awesome idea Kobe. Now LeBron fans and Melo haters can both meet in the same thread.

They will continue to say that LeBron is a better player than Melo. DERKA DER, of course LeBron is a better player than Melo, LeBron is the best player in the world.
BayAreaBully
Sophomore
Posts: 134
And1: 2
Joined: May 12, 2011

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#219 » by BayAreaBully » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:51 pm

ssenbonzakura wrote:A defender has two main jobs:
1. Prevent whoever he's guarding from scoring or scoring efficiently
2. Prevent whoever he's guarding from making passes that lead to another person scoring, ie prevent assists.
Since they've been in the league LeBron has consistently scored more than Melo, and by some margin too. Lebron has also provided more assists than Melo, again by a very considerable margin. This suggests to me that Lebron is by far the tougher cover. That shouldn't even be an argument. Kobe saying Melo is the tougher cover is him just expressing his opinion, and his opinion doesn't have to be right. In this case it's not.


Ya but the offensive player's goal is to make it as difficult as possible on themselves to score right? Gotta do enough smooth pull up jumpers and spinning fade aways to get that Gamebreaker!
User avatar
JellosJigglin
RealGM
Posts: 15,407
And1: 9,400
Joined: Jul 14, 2004

Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron 

Post#220 » by JellosJigglin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:53 pm

If Lebron had Kobe or even Carmelo's offensive repertoire, we'd be watching the GOAT. It would be like if Shaq had Tim Duncan's post game. Ridiculous.
RIP BASKETBALL REASONS (DEC 8TH 2011 - OCT 11TH 2020)

Return to The General Board