Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron

[andyo]

Carmelo is perhaps the more clutch player but Lebron is the better scorer. When we account all 4 players on the court, Lebron is 10 fold more effective. On one spectrum, you have educated fans who will use analytics and qualitative observations to their advantadge in a argument. On the other spectrum, you have caveman theory. Sometimes, the educated ones have to concede that not all caveman belong out of the cave.

[tsherkin]

Listen man, I'm not really into the whole "advance stat geek" stuff so those arguments are going to fall on deaf ears. If you force Lebron a little off the block, he's not as proficient. If you force Lebron to pull up off his right hand, and make him drive left, he's not as effective in my opinion.

I'm not railing against advanced stats, because I use them judiciously, but I know what my eyes tell me as well. So you can just go ahead argue that somewhere else.

This is the thing:

You're inferring something that isn't being displayed. Anyone who watches can tell that Melo, like Kobe, uses a wider variety of scoring moves than does Lebron. That much is apparent after maybe 2 or 3 quarters of basketball. Lebron does have physical advantages over both. But again, diversity isn't the same as effectiveness and versatility in method doesn't mean much if the end result isn't superior. So far this season, riding the shooting streak he's on at the moment from 3, Melo is having inarguably his best scoring season to date. Were the season to end today, he'd be irrefutably one of the three best scorers in the league. He's at ~ 28 ppg on ~ 59% TS, both of which would be career-best performances. For reference, though.

Melo: 28.2 ppg, 59.2% TS
Kobe: 29.3 ppg (league-high), 60.9% TS
LBJ: 25.5 ppg, 60.2% TS (and has two other guys scoring 18+ ppg on his team, plus Ray Allen)
Durant: 27.3 ppg, 64.2% TS

So right off of the bat, the numbers support the notion that Melo is performing as well as anyone in the league. They don't support that he's the best and his performance is at odds with the previous 9 years of his career in terms of the method: 45.5% 3P is 7.7% better than his previous career-high, especially since he's posting a career-high 5.6 3PA/g (or 1.9 more than his previous career-high). It's been 20 games.

I'm not sure how people can pay attention to what's happening, what has happened and the details of the situation and come to the conclusion that Melo is the best scorer in the NBA. By no definition is he the best. He doesn't score the most, he isn't the most efficient, he doesn't have any historical weight behind what he's doing and he isn't doing something that others haven't done before or aren't doing right this very moment during the same season. He's one of the most entertaining scorers to watch, possessing an aethetically-pleasing game, but that doesn't have any material value to this discussion. So far, Kobe and Durant have both been better scorers and one could argue that despite the lower volume, Lebron has been noticeably better as well.

Also, the factual errors in your post undermine your statement. Lebron LOVES going left, so I'm not sure where that came from. Meantime, the net result of their different styles of play is that Lebron is scoring more efficiently and has historically outscored Melo (also notable is that his career-high is better than what Melo is managing even this season).

So I'm not really sure where all of this adulation is coming from. It's well and good to recognize what Melo is accomplishing right now, he's having a great start to the season. It's not only factually incorrect and logically unsound to claim that he's the best scorer in the league, though, it's also REMARKABLY hasty to do so when his performance is founded, as it is, upon shooting so at odds with his historical performance. More to the point, 20 games doesn't suddenly undo a decade of history that defies the proclamation being made.

You don't need advanced stats to see this, though. Rudimentary averages and box score efficiency numbers tell you all that needs be told.

[RebelWithACause]

Doesnt it become harder to guard someone if the person you guard has an an endless repertoire of moves?
At least thats what I know from being on the court!
Also i think its physically more taxing because Melo posts up more and fights for position more.
1 on 1 Melo (especially straight up without screens) seems tougher to guard. Kobe isnt the first to admit this (Pierce, Gay, Battier).

The more efficient scorer: LeBron
More versatile and aesthatically pleasing goes to Melo.
Tougher to guard according to many NBA players, Melo! But of course TS% is a much better indicator to tell who is tougher to guard, really?

Its also a question on how you define better scorer, because I think you can go 2 ways doing this!
NO. 1Efficiency!
NO. 2and the eye test (regardless of their mostly really inefficient numbers, is there anyone here that wouldnt call Iverson or Jamal Crawford great scorers?)

Just my take!
And calling someone a caveman when he doesnt use all the stats to make his judgement, i just find that ridiculous.

Side question: By the way if you watch someone with mad handles and youre really blown away where he can get on the floor and with the moves he performs. Then you see the boxscore and see he has a lot of turnovers! Does that diminish his handles a lot, makes him a bad ballhandler all of the sudden because he is tries to do too much sometimes or sometimes is unaware?

[tsherkin]

Doesnt it become harder to guard someone if the person you guard has an an endless repertoire of moves?
At least thats what I know from being on the court!

If they go in reliably, sure. If you've just got 8 different ways to get to a 38-40% jumper without drawing a foul, then I tend not to care as much defensively though, know what I mean? At some point, a shooter is going to burn you but if you play the averages, they're not going to do it a lot if you force them to the lower pay-off moves consistently.

Also i think its physically more taxing because Melo posts up more and fights for position more.

That was historically true, but is noticeably less so this season (and even last season).

But of course TS% is a much better indicator to tell who is tougher to guard, really?

It'd have to be a combination of things, but it's pretty clear that if one guy is scoring a higher volume and doing so more efficiently, especially without sacrificing team play in the process, he's better. Doesn't matter how many moves a guy has.

Side question: By the way if you watch someone with mad handles and youre really blown away where he can get on the floor and with the moves he performs. Then you see the boxscore and see he has a lot of turnovers! Does that diminish his handles a lot, makes him a bad ballhandler all of the sudden because he is tries to do too much sometimes or sometimes is unaware?

Yes. Definitively, if you're being over-aggressive to that extent, it becomes a problem. It does depend on how you off-set it with passing and efficiency, of course. Magic and Nash, for example, had notable turnovers but produced highly efficient scoring and high-volume assist output to balance it out.

[moocow007]

Bottom line still is...it's Kobe Bryant's opinion. If you guys want to get upset go scream at Kobe.

[omerome]

Bottom line still is...it's Kobe Bryant's opinion. If you guys want to get upset go scream at Kobe.

It's amazing that statistics are brought up on someone's opinion. If I say that chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla, I better not get advanced statistics thrown in my face.

[tsherkin]

Bottom line still is...it's Kobe Bryant's opinion. If you guys want to get upset go scream at Kobe.

100% true.

The problem isn't Kobe saying, or even believing, this; it's people taking his comment to mean anything substantive about who is better between Melo and Lebron.

[RebelWithACause]

Doesnt it become harder to guard someone if the person you guard has an an endless repertoire of moves?
At least thats what I know from being on the court!

If they go in reliably, sure. If you've just got 8 different ways to get to a 38-40% jumper without drawing a foul, then I tend not to care as much defensively though, know what I mean? At some point, a shooter is going to burn you but if you play the averages, they're not going to do it a lot if you force them to the lower pay-off moves consistently.

Side question: By the way if you watch someone with mad handles and youre really blown away where he can get on the floor and with the moves he performs. Then you see the boxscore and see he has a lot of turnovers! Does that diminish his handles a lot, makes him a bad ballhandler all of the sudden because he is tries to do too much sometimes or sometimes is unaware?

Yes. Definitively, if you're being over-aggressive to that extent, it becomes a problem. It does depend on how you off-set it with passing and efficiency, of course. Magic and Nash, for example, had notable turnovers but produced highly efficient scoring and high-volume assist output to balance it out.

Yes i totally get what you mean, but i dont think Carmelo is a guy where you get to a point where you dont have to care as much tho.
I would even say his worst option on offense is his pull up jumper, which is still a big threat if he is on!
But if you would give him that shot all night so he cant use his hesitation, stutter step or a crossover to get by you, he would drain it and really get into rhythm.
Another point, someone already mentioned for example Kobe and Melo shoot a lot of bad shots. It hurts them a lot. Just look at how many times Melo shoots the transition 3, which is a pretty dumb and low percentage shots. Same with Kobe, all those contested fadeaways, bad shots
I feel like both never played to their abilities in terms of efficiency. Could Melo and Kobe go 50% fg, I think so sure
LeBron is much more intelligent with his selection and takes better shots (his transition buckets also help his % a lot, but thats another story)
But i differ between abilities and what they make of it! Melo and Kobe are not that good at it, LeBron is excellent


So you would call that Mr X a bad ballhandler because of that, or would you still advertise him mad handles but not playing to his abilites, because he makes bad descisions.
In theory he still is an excellent ballhandler for me!

One last question: Iverson always had mediocre efficiency during his prime, his best season was 54% TS which was the league average back then (got that from you ).
Does that make it easy to guard him? Wasnt he still an elite scorer?!

[moocow007]

Bottom line still is...it's Kobe Bryant's opinion. If you guys want to get upset go scream at Kobe.

100% true.

The problem isn't Kobe saying, or even believing, this; it's people taking his comment to mean anything substantive about who is better between Melo and Lebron.

Yep agreed. And honestly, Durant is probably the hardest to guard.

[tsherkin]

Yes i totally get what you mean, but i dont think Carmelo is a guy where you get to a point where you dont have to care as much tho.

He's a high-quality scorer and this season, the way he's streaking on his 3, he's been bloody marvelous. Not the best in the league, but top 3 scorer so far.

Another point, someone already mentioned for example Kobe and Melo shoot a lot of bad shots. It hurts them a lot. Just look at how many times Melo shoots the transition 3, which is a pretty dumb and low percentage shots.

Mmm... Yes and no.

It's an open 3, so if you get set and are a good shooter, it's a good shot. The weakness is that you won't have offensive rebounders, not that the quality of the shot is low.

Same with Kobe, all those contested fadeaways, bad shots
I feel like both never played to their abilities in terms of efficiency. Could Melo and Kobe go 50% fg, I think so sure

Hmmm, doubt it. They need the 3 to get themselves going too much and they use the J too much. In Kobe's case, it's partly because of his age and in both cases, the raw volume they shoot dictates that fact. Lebron also has superior physically gifts, which changes things some.

So you would call that Mr X a bad ballhandler because of that, or would you still advertise him mad handles but not playing to his abilites, because he makes bad descisions.
In theory he still is an excellent ballhandler for me!

In a meaningless sort of way, sure. The technical ability to control the ball is held hostage by poor decision-making, undermining the value of the technical skill.

It's like Crawford; sick technical handles, streaky but effective shot... Too stupid to rely upon as a starter but he's a fantastic 6th man. A specialist, if you will.

One last question: Iverson always had mediocre efficiency during his prime, his best season was 54% TS

which was the league average back then (got that from you ).
Does that make it easy to guard him? Wasnt he still an elite scorer?!

Unless his shot was going (and he wasn't a good shooter), you could rely upon him to take a series of bad shots. When his brain was working and his J was falling, he was one of the most unguardable players in the league. But his decision-making undermined his overall value and thus helped leave him less effective than someone like Kobe. Iverson was a superstar talent, but "merely" an All-Star quality player because of his mind.
It makes a difference, especially for folks with less overall talent to rely on than someone like AI had. I've still not seen someone as quick on the change of direction as prime AI, even when he wasn't cheating with illegal dribbles.

[RebelWithACause]

Unless his shot was going (and he wasn't a good shooter), you could rely upon him to take a series of bad shots. When his brain was working and his J was falling, he was one of the most unguardable players in the league. But his decision-making undermined his overall value and thus helped leave him less effective than someone like Kobe

See and that is where I come from when I say the could have 50% FG seasons (younger Kobe and Melo)
They make bad decisions. When they are hot the really overforce it, see yesterday : The shots Melo took in the 2nd quarter, or some shots when Kobe thought he was hot after his good start to the game! Bad shots!
LeBron doesnt have the their mentality, which pretty much is, i am a the best scorer i can make any shot! LeBron passes the ball to get a better shot, which also helps his FG% and I also think it is the right thing to do !(I also remember how he got blasted for passing some game winners up for higher percentage shots and getting critiziced for that lol).
LeBron doesnt seem to force it as much as guys like Kobe, Melo, McGrady, Westbrook, Iverson and so on.
Players like Wade, Paul, (Tony Parker), Nash, maybe even Durant do have a good shot selection, their FG% is higher

Kobe and Melo for the most part have a bad shot selection, everybody knows that! they are not playing to their abilities, they could had a couple of 50% FG seasons, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion!
Because of their pure abilities, i see them as better scorers.
Bron is the better scorer due to efficieny (at least for most people).


Its kind of cherry picking I think, if you look into soccer
There you could have the same debate, who is/was the better offensive player:
Cristiano Ronaldo or Zidane/Ronaldinho.
When you look at the numbers its clearly Ronaldo.
If you watch games and listen to what players have to say Ronaldo wouldnt even be mentioned once!

[tsherkin]

!
Because of their pure abilities, i see them as better scorers.

Which is non-sensical.

You're saying that in a mythical world where their personalities totally different, that maybe they could perform at a different level, but that's strange because their personalities dictate their approach. Maybe if they were different, they wouldn't shoot as much or be as dominant, who knows?

In terms of reality, the on-court truth is that Melo (in any given year, even this one) is not the best scorer in the league.

[CoachKobe]

It's no secret that Melo is Kobe's homie, and it's not the first time that Kobe praises or defends Melo. While everyone was talking Linsanity - what was Kobe doing? He praised Melo.

But Kobe and LeBron? They don't have a good relationship, no secret either.

Obviously we can discuss who's more difficult to defend. But just refering to Kobe's opinion: it's the opinion of a good friend.

[RebelWithACause]

!
Because of their pure abilities, i see them as better scorers.

Which is non-sensical.

You're saying that in a mythical world where their personalities totally different, that maybe they could perform at a different level, but that's strange because their personalities dictate their approach. Maybe if they were different, they wouldn't shoot as much or be as dominant, who knows?

In terms of reality, the on-court truth is that Melo (in any given year, even this one) is not the best scorer in the league.

Do not agree at all!
Better system, coach, Take the ball to the whole more, not let them fall in love with their jumpers as much.
Maybe their points would be down by a couple, but efficiency would be way up.
Look at Karl he got Melo to get his efficiency up and his shot selection still wasnt good.

Anyone has a statistic where it is displayed how many points players average on transition plays and in half court set?

[tsherkin]

Do not agree at all!
Better system, coach, Take the ball to the whole more, not let them fall in love with their jumpers as much.
Maybe their points would be down by a couple, but efficiency would be way up.
Look at Karl he got Melo to get his efficiency up and his shot selection still wasnt good.

Actually, Karl still didn't do all that much for Melo, and the fact that he's so resistant to playing the right way tells much about his scorer's instincts. More pertinently, even then, his efficiency (absolute and relative to league average) didn't match Lebron, KD or Wade.

Kobe's having an outlier stretch for him; he's not KD, he won't maintain 60%+ TS, but then Melo won't maintain 59% either. Both will regress to a more sensible level eventually. 20 games sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.

[truth serum]

Look at you guys having such a pointless, meaningless argument. As a Knicks fan and a fan of Melo, I take what Kobe (one of the best scorers and best players of all time) said about Melo as a huge compliment and a testament to the type of player Melo has always been. Surely a testament to the great season he's having thus far. Could care less if some dweebs on a message board think he's not "the best scorer", so long as the Knicks continue to be the best team in the east. Seeyalatergoodbye.

[blackbishop]

One problem with TS% is that it takes into account free throws and LBJ and durant are more likely to get a foul call for the same amount of contact compared to melo. Durant especially gets ton of touch fouls while melo due to his physical approach gets less fouls when more contact has occured.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

[JMaine518]

Simple answer yes.

[tsherkin]

One problem with TS% is that it takes into account free throws and LBJ and durant are more likely to get a foul call for the same amount of contact compared to melo.

It's not a problem, it's an accurate depiction of the difference between these players. The root cause isn't really relevant, though you'll notice his FG%/eFG% is typically lower as well, as is his ORTG. It's not just FTs that make Melo less efficient.

[LBJ-ITALY]

One problem with TS% is that it takes into account free throws and LBJ and durant are more likely to get a foul call for the same amount of contact compared to melo. Durant especially gets ton of touch fouls while melo due to his physical approach gets less fouls when more contact has occured.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

It is obvious that you haven't seen any Miami heat game this year!LBJ doesn't get calls anymore,and he can only get a foul call when it's a clear flagrant