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Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Than LeBron

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Post#151 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:47 pm by tsherkin

How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?
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Post#152 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:55 pm by moocow007

tsherkin wrote:How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?


Lebron is the better passer and he makes his teammates better. He's also clearly the better player in transition and being able to use his physical tools to it's max. That still doesn't mean he's the harder guy to defend based on why my view of what criteria is being used. IMO that's the same criteria that Bryant is using (i.e. not the, hey Lebron just blew by us for a dunk, but rather, ok we're ready for Anthony but damn it doesn't matter cause he'll still get his). Anthony does not get the same type of easy scoring opportunities that Lebron James does. There is no arguing about that. And beacuse Lebron can get himself easier scoring opportunities actually works against him when we're talking about who exactly is the harder guy to guard defensively. Again, it's not a knock on James. I'd still prefer him over Anthony. But the question isn't about who can put up the most points, it's about who's the harder person to guard (presumably one-on-one since that sounds like the scenarios Bryant gives and has given in the past) when all's equal and you're ready for him. From that standpoint I think both Anthony and Durant has the advantage over James. If James had the same offensive (read scoring, not scoring/passing/offensive-rebounding/etc) skills that Durant and Anthony has then IMHO he'd be putting up 30+ average easily cause physically he's more dominant and has better ball skills than either Durant or (especially) Anthony.
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Post#153 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:09 pm by hokageinfamus

How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?


Lebron is a superior play maker, passer, and athlete that's always been known, but most importantly his teams have always been built around him. This is the first time Melo has a team that fits around his abilities

Melo is involving teammates and could be averaging 4-5 assists a game, but a lot of his assists have been hockey assists this year. Lebron's post game is still average. Carmelo and Kobe still have more versatile back to the basket games.

Teams still dare Lebron to shoot 20 foot jumpers. He's improved greatly at mid-range shooting but teams still will let him take that shot. The same can't be said for Melo or Durant

Playoff Performance - LeBron has faced weaker teams, you realize that Melo in the first round has lost to teams that went on to win the finals rights?
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Post#154 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:55 pm by og15

Is it playoff performance in terms of how far they have gone or how well and efficiently they have scored that is being takes about? I think it's the later, so if any question would be asked, it would be more about who was playing tougher defenses than how far each guy was going.
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Post#155 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:00 pm by EscapoTHB

hokageinfamus wrote:
How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?




Teams still dare Lebron to shoot 20 foot jumpers. He's improved greatly at mid-range shooting but teams still will let him take that shot. The same can't be said for Melo or Durant



They let him take the shot because they cant get up on him. He still makes the shot though. At a higher percentage than melo.

Lebron doesn't get enough credit for his shooting. He is better than both melo and Kobe with his j. But people act like he cant shoot. His midrange is automatic. And his 3 point shooting is also good for someone who is usually taking contested 3s.

Lebron is better than melo st everything but maybe free throws.
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Post#156 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:04 pm by og15

EscapoTHB wrote:
hokageinfamus wrote:
How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?




Teams still dare Lebron to shoot 20 foot jumpers. He's improved greatly at mid-range shooting but teams still will let him take that shot. The same can't be said for Melo or Durant



They let him take the shot because they cant get up on him. He still makes the shot though. At a higher percentage than melo.

Lebron doesn't get enough credit for his shooting. He is better than both melo and Kobe with his j. But people act like he cant shoot. His midrange is automatic. And his 3 point shooting is also good for someone who is usually taking contested 3s.

Lebron is better than melo st everything but maybe free throws.
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You still have to admit that when you watch them, Carmelo looks like a better scorer, it's prettier to see most of the time.
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Post#157 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:14 pm by MikeLowrey

mr cranky pants wrote:If it were a one on one game maybe, MAYBE, melo but its a team game and lebron would be the tougher guard


Well all Kobe knows is one on one game
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Post#158 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:17 pm by diablerouge

moocow007 wrote:If James had the same offensive (read scoring, not scoring/passing/offensive-rebounding/etc) skills that Durant and Anthony has then IMHO he'd be putting up 30+ average easily cause physically he's more dominant and has better ball skills than either Durant or (especially) Anthony.

but he has put up 30+. he scored 31.5 ppg in his THIRD YEAR, something that neither carmelo or kd have yet to do (melo, in fact, has never reached 30). he also has the most 50-point games in the nba outside of kobe.

lebron's game is much more refined now and he doesn't look to get the most points just for the sake of scoring, he talks in interviews about offensive and defensive efficiency. 54% shooting for someone that takes that many jumpers is insane. with the way his game has improved since his early cleveland days, he could get 34-35 ppg on 45% shooting right now. but miami wouldn't be as good of a team.

i think the reason why people feel melo is more of a scorer is because whenever he wants to score, he isolates himself on the wing and essentially makes it a game of 1vs1 with help defenders - it's magnified. but that's also terrible basketball. that's what lebron used to do in cleveland with mike brown giving him all the 1-4 lows to pound the rock and beat his man.
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Post#159 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:18 pm by diablerouge

og15 wrote:You still have to admit that when you watch them, Carmelo looks like a better scorer, it's prettier to see most of the time.

voilà. /thread
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Post#160 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:50 pm by rockmanslim

EscapoTHB wrote:
hokageinfamus wrote:
How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?




Teams still dare Lebron to shoot 20 foot jumpers. He's improved greatly at mid-range shooting but teams still will let him take that shot. The same can't be said for Melo or Durant



They let him take the shot because they cant get up on him. He still makes the shot though. At a higher percentage than melo.


Link?

Here's what I have:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1219861&start=105#p33977978

Where are you getting the stats that say Lebron shoots 20 footers at a higher percentage than Melo? I'm not infallible, so maybe I'm wrong.
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Post#161 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:21 pm by hokageinfamus

but he has put up 30+. he scored 31.5 ppg in his THIRD YEAR,


The year where almost every star player in the league had career highs in PPG because of the rule change?
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Post#162 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm by ShowTimeERA

EscapoTHB wrote:
hokageinfamus wrote:
How do you account for the massive advantage Lebron displays at involving his teammates and the yawning chasm between the two in terms of playoff performance, then? And the more recent evolutions in Lebron's game?




Teams still dare Lebron to shoot 20 foot jumpers. He's improved greatly at mid-range shooting but teams still will let him take that shot. The same can't be said for Melo or Durant



They let him take the shot because they cant get up on him. He still makes the shot though. At a higher percentage than melo.

Lebron doesn't get enough credit for his shooting. He is better than both melo and Kobe with his j. But people act like he cant shoot. His midrange is automatic. And his 3 point shooting is also good for someone who is usually taking contested 3s.

Lebron is better than melo st everything but maybe free throws.
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Why would you even include Kobe? Kobe is old, barely gets any lift at this stage and has arthritis on his hands...Go back prior to 08, and its no question Kobe had a superior mid-range game and was a much better shooter than Lebron has ever been in his career thus far...
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Post#163 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:57 pm by tsherkin

hokageinfamus wrote:The year where almost every star player in the league had career highs in PPG because of the rule change?


You know he's managed 10+ FTA/g twice since then, right? It wasn't just that season where he showed an ability to get to the line and he's even scored 30+ in another season since then: 30 in 07-08 and 29.7 two years later.

Repeatedly butting up against that average. Little different than the story you're trying to tell.
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Post#164 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:22 pm by hokageinfamus

You know he's managed 10+ FTA/g twice since then, right? It wasn't just that season where he showed an ability to get to the line and he's even scored 30+ in another season since then: 30 in 07-08 and 29.7 two years later.

Repeatedly butting up against that average. Little different than the story you're trying to tell.


I wasn't questioning his ability to get to the line I was just commenting that almost every star player in that particular season was averaging career or near career highs in PPG and FTA
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Post#165 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:43 pm by King_John

I think Kobe made this argument public on purpose. He knows LeBron is a beast and wants to diminish LeBron s value and boost Melo s Ego (whih isn t necessarily a good thing). But I love it. Now the media is going to hype Melo to no end and come playoff time LeBron is going to turn it on and show the world once again who is the best player (as he did with Durant last playoffs). Carmelo is having a sensational season so far no doubt. I just don t get it why people jump on everything to dismiss Lebron s offensive ability. The guy was regular season MVP, Finals MVP and won the Chip last year. Now Melo has a great start to the season and Kobe says he is more difficult to defend than Lebron and everyone goes like "Oh yeah ,ahem I always said Melo is the better than Lebron offensively and blablabla...."
We know you guys just wait to see LeBron fail again so you can feel better about yourself. Ain t gonna happen and for now let s defer the argument until they meet in the playoffs. I think LeBron has a say in this too by then.
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Post#166 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:08 pm by ShowTimeERA

King_John wrote:I think Kobe made this argument public on purpose. He knows LeBron is a beast and wants to diminish LeBron s value and boost Melo s Ego (whih isn t necessarily a good thing). But I love it. Now the media is going to hype Melo to no end and come playoff time LeBron is going to turn it on and show the world once again who is the best player (as he did with Durant last playoffs). Carmelo is having a sensational season so far no doubt. I just don t get it why people jump on everything to dismiss Lebron s offensive ability. The guy was regular season MVP, Finals MVP and won the Chip last year. Now Melo has a great start to the season and Kobe says he is more difficult to defend than Lebron and everyone goes like "Oh yeah ,ahem I always said Melo is the better than Lebron offensively and blablabla...."
We know you guys just wait to see LeBron fail again so you can feel better about yourself. Ain t gonna happen and for now let s defer the argument until they meet in the playoffs. I think LeBron has a say in this too by then.


Kobe has been saying Melo is the toughest player to defend since the summer Olympics in 08. Actually, Melo is the only player from the olympic squad who Kobe lost to in a 1-1 match.

If you have followed Kobe close enough, you would know that he respects and has a fascination with players who are complete offensive players. Also not to mention Kobe called Melo a "bull" all throughout the 09 WCF. This isn't something new to discredit Lebron although you may believe so because you may have an emotional attachment to Lebron. It's just Kobe's opinion in which he has been consistent with.
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Post#167 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:17 pm by Tien

I'd love to see Kobe guard LeBron 1v1 the next time they play.

LeBron would be able to back him down physically no problem.
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Post#168 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:20 pm by EscapoTHB

ShowTimeERA wrote:
King_John wrote:I think Kobe made this argument public on purpose. He knows LeBron is a beast and wants to diminish LeBron s value and boost Melo s Ego (whih isn t necessarily a good thing). But I love it. Now the media is going to hype Melo to no end and come playoff time LeBron is going to turn it on and show the world once again who is the best player (as he did with Durant last playoffs). Carmelo is having a sensational season so far no doubt. I just don t get it why people jump on everything to dismiss Lebron s offensive ability. The guy was regular season MVP, Finals MVP and won the Chip last year. Now Melo has a great start to the season and Kobe says he is more difficult to defend than Lebron and everyone goes like "Oh yeah ,ahem I always said Melo is the better than Lebron offensively and blablabla...."
We know you guys just wait to see LeBron fail again so you can feel better about yourself. Ain t gonna happen and for now let s defer the argument until they meet in the playoffs. I think LeBron has a say in this too by then.


Kobe has been saying Melo is the toughest player to defend since the summer Olympics in 08. Actually, Melo is the only player from the olympic squad who Kobe lost to in a 1-1 match.

If you have followed Kobe close enough, you would know that he respects and has a fascination with players who are complete offensive players. Also not to mention Kobe called Melo a "bull" all throughout the 09 WCF. This isn't something new to discredit Lebron although you may believe so because you may have an emotional attachment to Lebron. It's just Kobe's opinion in which he has been consistent with.


Kobe likes melo because melo has in the past had the same terrible shot selection as him.

Lets set aside lebron for a minute. How about durant? Durant is the kareem of perimeter players


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Post#169 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:55 pm by IG2

'Melo is no threat to Kobe. Far easier to praise him then a player who's peak everyone considers superior to Kobe's.
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Post#170 Re: Kobe: Carmelo More Difficult To Defend Th
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:40 pm by tsherkin

hokageinfamus wrote:I wasn't questioning his ability to get to the line I was just commenting that almost every star player in that particular season was averaging career or near career highs in PPG and FTA


I realize, but it's a disparaging comment because it implies that it was only because it happened to be that season that Lebron was able to reach that level. Pointing out that he's drawn fouls at a comparable level in two seasons since then and that he's reached 30+ ppg since then AND 29.7 as well indicates that even as the rules changes have settled some, he's still proving capable of scoring at a level that Melo hasn't actually reached yet.
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