Race to the MVP pt. III

[fallacy]

1. Durant
2. Lebron
3. CP3

[Doctor MJ]

So.....the Clippers won on the road without Chris Paul again.

Three games without CP3:

at MIN - W 90-77
at HOU - W 117-109
at MEM - W 99-73

Yeah if this keeps up it will certainly cook Paul's MVP candidacy.

I dont't think people have talked about enough how insane the Clippers' success with deep lineups is. The thing is that while Paul really isn't quite on the Durant-LeBron level, he really is really, really good. It simply should not be this easy to replace him.

[MisterWestside]

If it's all about win-loss record without a star player, I don't know what the argument is about. Just pick the most one-dimensional team in the league and give the MVP to the star of that team. Done.

In that case, stars should never want to win an MVP award.

[HotRocks34]

Great game for LeBron tonight on national TV.

39/7/8 on 17-25 FGA
Raw efficiency = 48

That will help his chances, especially with the Clippers rolling without CP3

[TheKiteDesigner]

National TV dominance for LeBron tonight. Gained some ground on KD.

[Wonderllama]

Lebron was like 80% of Miami's offense. Wade did all right, but everyone else disappeared.

[Doctor MJ]

If it's all about win-loss record without a star player, I don't know what the argument is about. Just pick the most one-dimensional team in the league and give the MVP to the star of that team. Done.

In that case, stars should never want to win an MVP award.

Don't be silly. Obviously when we talk about MVP we want to factor in both the quality of the team achievement and the primacy of the player on that team. You don't just go by how much raw lift a player provides, however when Player A's team does better with him and worse without him than what happens with Player B this is worth noting.

Re: "should never want to win MVP". Well obviously there are mixed feelings involved. Wade basically killed any chance he'd ever have of top MVP candidacy by recruiting LeBron too his team.

[MisterWestside]

The ironi thing is that LeBron went up in the MVP rankings only because his team won. Even though he was clearly the best player on the floor.

So, CP3 gets knocked for his team's ridiculous depth and rotation (which is what every player loves) even though he's clearly playing brilliantly, and people give LeBron "extra credit" for his team winning even though it's superfluous.

Rankings:

Durant (slight lead over LeBron)
LeBron (slight lead over CP3)
CP3 (EASILY could win this award)

the rest

[fallacy]

Durant doesn't have a slight lead, he has a legit lead


Don't forget a week ago Durant put up a line of 42/8/5 +35 +/- in a blowout against these lakers.

[MisterWestside]

You don't just go by how much raw lift a player provides, however when Player A's team does better with him and worse without him than what happens with Player B this is worth noting.

Respectfully DocMJ, what's worth noting is that the proper mix of team dynamics, coaching, and use of personnel is the most essential part of the game. A single player is a single player though, and I'm only (meticulously!) looking at HIS level of play. What his aggregate of teammates can somewhat replicate with him off the floor is irrelevant.

[MisterWestside]

Durant doesn't have a slight lead, he has a legit lead


Don't forget a week ago Durant put up a line of 42/8/5 +35 +/- in a blowout against these lakers.

I look at the player's performance against the whole league. Not just against one team.

[Doctor MJ]

The ironi thing is that LeBron went up in the MVP rankings only because his team won. Even though he was clearly the best player on the floor.

So, CP3 gets knocked for his team's ridiculous depth and rotation (which is what every player loves) even though he's clearly playing brilliantly, and people give LeBron "extra credit" for his team winning even though it's superfluous.

Rankings:

Durant (slight lead over LeBron)
LeBron (slight lead over CP3)
CP3 (EASILY could win this award)

the rest

Wait so are you saying that "real" people are NOT knocking Paul? That's what "easily could win" would seem to mean.

Anywho, I don't really understand the reluctance to hold depth against a player's candidacy.

When Durant's got a raw +/- of 405, Paul as one of 267. If their two team's are roughly equal because huge amounts of ground are made up with Paul on the bench, that would seems to be pretty relevant to the discussion.

[Doctor MJ]

You don't just go by how much raw lift a player provides, however when Player A's team does better with him and worse without him than what happens with Player B this is worth noting.

Respectfully DocMJ, what's worth noting is that the proper mix of team dynamics, coaching, and use of personnel is the most essential part of the game. A single player is a single player though, and I'm only (meticulously!) looking at HIS level of play. What his aggregate of teammates can somewhat replicate with him off the floor is irrelevant.

I understand that thinking in principle, but basketball is a very complex game. The goal is not to do as much as possible but to work with others' talents as much as possible.

[420]

Prime LeBron is averaging a career low in FTAs and it just got lower tonight.

The guy's legendary, another MVP wouldn't affect his legacy.

Give it to another player that needs validation.

[fallacy]

Durant doesn't have a slight lead, he has a legit lead


Don't forget a week ago Durant put up a line of 42/8/5 +35 +/- in a blowout against these lakers.

I look at the player's performance against the whole league. Not just against one team.

and durant still has the better case than lebron. But other people can have this argument, i'm going to bed.

[GSP]

Durant doesn't have a slight lead, he has a legit lead


Don't forget a week ago Durant put up a line of 42/8/5 +35 +/- in a blowout against these lakers.

These Lakers? They didnt have Dwight or Pau that wasnt the same lakers.

[MisterWestside]

I understand that thinking in principle, but basketball is a very complex game. The goal is not to do as much as possible but to work with others' talents as much as possible.

I can note all of that without using one's teammates for/against a player, though.

Re: Clippers depth, their team is constructed entirely different from the Thunder's lineup. When the Clippers go to their bench, they can bring in players who are highly quality players "that could start elsewhere" than what the Thunder can provide outside of Martin. The bench philosophies are also different: the Thunder still use their depth with Durant (and Westbrook to a lesser degree) at the center of things. The Clippers however almost become a different kind of team when the starters aren't on the floor. They switch from their insane offense/solid defense of the starting group to a brusing defensive squad by design.

[Left Side Drive]

LeBron just took the lead with that performance against the Lakers.

[SweetTouch]

Durant doesn't have a slight lead, he has a legit lead


Don't forget a week ago Durant put up a line of 42/8/5 +35 +/- in a blowout against these lakers.

These Lakers? They didnt have Dwight or Pau that wasnt the same lakers.

Damn I forgot about that too

LBJ and KD dominated both either way

[Doctor MJ]

I understand that thinking in principle, but basketball is a very complex game. The goal is not to do as much as possible but to work with others' talents as much as possible.

I can note all of that without using one's teammates for/against a player, though.

Re: Clippers depth, their team is constructed entirely different from the Thunder's lineup. When the Clippers go to their bench, they can bring in players who are highly quality players "that could start elsewhere" than what the Thunder can provide outside of Martin. The bench philosophies are also different: the Thunder still use their depth with Durant (and Westbrook to a lesser degree) at the center of things. The Clippers however almost become a different kind of team when the starters aren't on the floor. They switch from their insane offense/solid defense of the starting group to a brusing defensive squad by design.

I suppose I'd like to hear you speak more on Durant.

His raw +/- has absolutely skyrocketed compared to last year. What is your explanation for how this has happened?

Re: Clippers depth. I understand that things are different on different teams, but without the Clippers' depth, the indicators I've mentioned imply that Paul's team would be much worse than the Thunder. Obviously you can aim to rebut that if you so choose, but that doesn't seem to be what you're doing. Instead it seems to me like what you're saying is simply that Durant has outstanding fit (rather than talent) from his supporting cast, and that that fit needs to be seen as something which requires us to allocate credit away from him personally as it relates to his quantity of value added. That's a valid philosophy, but I don't agree with it.