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Race to the MVP pt. III

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Post#631 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:30 am by fallacy

Fun fact, Kobe Bryant has taken 130 more field goal attempts than Durant. one hundred and thirty more shots
**** Ron Artest
**** Marco Belinelli
Stephen Jackson aint bout dis lyfe
Patrick Beverly deserves to have his knee ripped to pieces
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Post#632 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:37 am by sprint2thecup

fatal9 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
fatal9 wrote:Even though no one outside of the top 3 has a shot to win MVP, Steph Curry has to be considered 4th at this point.


Wow. I'd love to hear you expound on that.

SideshowBob wrote:Yeah I saw you mention being real high on Curry this year on the PC board fatal, and I was hoping you could go into a bit more detail.


I kind of made a short overall assessment of his game in the Rondo vs. Curry thread so I'll just quote that to avoid repeating some stuff.

fatal9 wrote:Curry, no brainer. To me, he's probably been the second best PG so far and he's not even shooting up to his potential from 16-22 feet yet. You can't keep him from getting his shot on the perimeter because of how quick his release is, it's absurd for someone who takes as many and the type of threes he does to be shooting 46% from there. His handles have noticeably improved, very good and crafty passer, runs the offense really well (has developed a nice two man game with Lee), but his problem can be being slightly too turnover prone when trying to create plays. Doesn't put as much pressure off the dribble as the more athletic PGs in the league, so I can understand people preferring Westbrook to him (I prefer my PG being a little more heady though). Also has the versatility to play like a 2 with another on-ball player. Rondo is just way too limited on offense in comparison.

He's gone from being a pretty bad defender, to one of the better defensive PGs, has gotten a lot stronger which keeps him from getting pushed around like before, plays very smart and aware team D, helps on the boards and about an average on-ball defender to go with that (can have trouble with quick PGs though). I've been really impressed with his defense this year, especially given where he was couple of years ago. Might have to give Mark Jackson some credit here.

*note his defense has been subpar since coming back from ankle injury, he's playing a little more tentatively.

Also, to be clear, I'm not overreacting from a good game today, I've considered him around a top 10 player for most of the year and likely the second best PG (though I think Westbrook is a better talent and a bad matchup for him head to head). I will admit that Curry is probably my favorite PG in the league, one of those guys I've been high on since the draft, so there is a little bit of bias but it's not like I don't see his limitations. He lacks the quickness to be an elite "drive and dish" player, he can break off defenders because of his handles, but he's not like the athletic PGs in that sense who can really rip through your defense and create plays or draw fouls at will. But he's way more heady at running the offense. He runs a really nice two man game with Lee that helps make him effective, a very good and crafty passer who has the court sense to make a lot of passes that lead to the "right shot". When you look at the boxscore, his assists are comparatively lower than what you would expect from a top PG, but he doesn't really play a drive and kick game, AND he also plays off-ball two over course of the game when Jack is in (or he'd be an 8+ apg player). It's not because Jack is a better PG than him, not even close, but because it helps a team that lacks consistent offensive players at several positions run a successful offense oriented lineup (especially in fourth). I think the "SG trying to be a PG" reputation he had coming out of college makes people underrate his PG skills and passing ability. He does have a tendency to walk himself into traps at times or make a pass that isn't there, which can result in high TO games against aggressive defense.

He's almost exclusively a jumpshooter for his scoring, which can bring up concerns of consistency but Curry isn't just a great shooter, he probably has somewhat of an outlier skill...to shoot so well from three at that type of volume, taking the type of threes he does, I don't think we've ever seen three pt shooting at this level before. It's absurd. He's not a spot up guy or anything, he can create his shot whenever he wants, has a lightening quick release which helps him against defensive pressure, and has the handles to create looks for himself and get past people when they overplay him. And like all great shooters, he puts a lot of pressure off the ball running through screens and forcing guys to make decisions on whether to help off him or not. But yea, elite or pure or great shooter is underselling him, he will have the GOAT 3pt shooting season by a pretty big margin imo if he keeps this up. After a slow shooting start in first couple of weeks (which is kind of typical of him), he is shooting 51% from three in the last two months while attempting 7 a game (also hovering between 59-60 TS% overall).

Their starting lineup has two rookies and an inconsistent sophomore which is pretty crazy for a team that is 25-13 with Steph in the lineup (btw they haven't had an easy schedule, and didn't come in with any continuity either due to the roster changes). They have a good bench though and the improvement in team defense has helped them immensely (Curry has made himself a part of that improvement). Jarrett Jack is a good backup point guard, who can only play as many minutes as he does because Curry can play seamlessly off the ball. I love the backcourt versatility he provides and a lot of these lineups they run, they can only run because of Curry's presence. The young guys can get their minutes because Curry creates enough good shots to help that lineup from completely sucking on offense, then in the fourth they can run an offensive minded lineup with Jack at PG because of his versatility. While you don't want to draw much from a two game sample where he was out, especially against the type of teams they played, their offensive execution was dreadful and it looked like the type of clueless offensive team you would expect to see given all the young guys getting big minutes. He helps a team that is kind of offensively challenged come together.

But it also comes down to who else should be 4th or 5th in MVP voting? Duncan plays only 30 mpg. Melo while I've waiting for the playoffs and entire year to play out before changing my assessment on, still doesn't create enough offense for teammates for me to get behind him, and his shooting numbers are starting to come back to earth, and Warriors with Curry in lineup have a better record than the Knicks...that's with a tougher schedule in a tougher conference. Who else should be over him?


i like steph curry a lot too, but i don't consider him the second best PG. i agree he's better than rondo. but i would take kyrie irving over curry because kyrie is almost as good of a shooter, he's a better play maker and he is a more prolific scorer. irving has more upside.
real gm logic;
"kobe scored 48 points tonight"
"^small sample size"
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Post#633 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:52 am by oaklandwarriors

sprint2thecup wrote:i like steph curry a lot too, but i don't consider him the second best PG. i agree he's better than rondo. but i would take kyrie irving over curry because kyrie is almost as good of a shooter, he's a better play maker and he is a more prolific scorer. irving has more upside.


Curry is a much better shooter than Irving and also a better playmaker than Irving. Simple assist numbers show this, and in Curry's case he plays off-ball when Jarrett Jack comes in which lowers his numbers somewhat.
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Post#634 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:08 am by sprint2thecup

oaklandwarriors wrote:
sprint2thecup wrote:i like steph curry a lot too, but i don't consider him the second best PG. i agree he's better than rondo. but i would take kyrie irving over curry because kyrie is almost as good of a shooter, he's a better play maker and he is a more prolific scorer. irving has more upside.


Curry is a much better shooter than Irving


no he's not. curry's one of the best shooters on the planet, too. he's a better shooter than virtually anyone. he still can't score like kyrie can and he isn't durable.

stephen does 0.9 more assists per game than irving. that's not even one assist. and irving more than makes up for it by giving you 23 ppg. i will take kyrie. he's showing the ability to be a true first option, and stephen curry isn't one.
real gm logic;
"kobe scored 48 points tonight"
"^small sample size"
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Post#635 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:12 am by KingCuban

kamelion4291 wrote:
If you do everything for your team, and you're universally regarded as the best player in the NBA, and your team is leading your conference and coming off an NBA championship, you'd have a pretty hard time making a case that they wouldn't be the Most Valuable Player in the NBA.


Not when you are behind OKC and Durant by 5 games, whilst only holding down 1st place out East marginally, and being only 3 games ahead of 5th place out in the horrible East.
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Post#636 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:21 am by oaklandwarriors

sprint2thecup wrote:
oaklandwarriors wrote:
sprint2thecup wrote:i like steph curry a lot too, but i don't consider him the second best PG. i agree he's better than rondo. but i would take kyrie irving over curry because kyrie is almost as good of a shooter, he's a better play maker and he is a more prolific scorer. irving has more upside.


Curry is a much better shooter than Irving


no he's not. curry's one of the best shooters on the planet, too. he's a better shooter than virtually anyone. he still can't score like kyrie can and he isn't durable.

stephen does 0.9 more assists per game than irving. that's not even one assist. and irving more than makes up for it by giving you 23 ppg. i will take kyrie. he's showing the ability to be a true first option, and stephen curry isn't one.


Well Curry is the 1st option on a 25-15 team and Irving is a 1st option on a 10-32 team. So I don't see your point about Kyrie being a true 1st option, and Curry not being one. I'm not saying you can't take Irving, but this argument is pretty weak. Curry is in the conversation of being one of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time. Saying Curry is a much better shooter, but that's not knocking Irving at all. Irving is a much better driver and is more athletic, hence the better scoring numbers.
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Post#637 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:33 am by sprint2thecup

oaklandwarriors wrote:Well Curry is the 1st option on a 25-15 team and Irving is a 1st option on a 10-32 team. So I don't see your point about Kyrie being a true 1st option, and Curry not being one. I'm not saying you can't take Irving, but this argument is pretty weak. Curry is in the conversation of being one of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time. Saying Curry is a much better shooter, but that's not knocking Irving at all. Irving is a much better driver and is more athletic, hence the better scoring numbers.


david lee is the first option as much as curry. curry's surrounded by better players than irving, of course he's got a better record. they're both really good. but the one i could see maturing into the league's best guard or close is kyrie. he's more athletic and less injury prone, he's very clutch too.
real gm logic;
"kobe scored 48 points tonight"
"^small sample size"
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Post#638 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:41 am by oaklandwarriors

sprint2thecup wrote:
oaklandwarriors wrote:Well Curry is the 1st option on a 25-15 team and Irving is a 1st option on a 10-32 team. So I don't see your point about Kyrie being a true 1st option, and Curry not being one. I'm not saying you can't take Irving, but this argument is pretty weak. Curry is in the conversation of being one of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time. Saying Curry is a much better shooter, but that's not knocking Irving at all. Irving is a much better driver and is more athletic, hence the better scoring numbers.


david lee is the first option as much as curry. curry's surrounded by better players than irving, of course he's got a better record. they're both really good. but the one i could see maturing into the league's best guard or close is kyrie. he's more athletic and less injury prone, he's very clutch too.


True. I don't disagree with you on Irving and his potential, just his and Curry's strength. Both are top 10 PG's and should be all-stars provided health is on their side.
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Post#639 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:07 am by jayjamesson

fallacy wrote:Fun fact, Kobe Bryant has taken 130 more field goal attempts than Durant. one hundred and thirty more shots

Same amount of FT's Durant has taken MORE than Lebron.
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Post#640 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:36 am by LBJ-ITALY

Give Lebron the same amount of FT of Durant and he would be......
However, for me its
1-Durant
2.Lebron
for now!
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Post#641 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:00 am by TheRobin

Durant
Lebron

Doesn't matter.

Durant is playing incredible.
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Post#642 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:09 am by JordansBulls

Durant now leading the league in scoring.
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Post#643 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:45 pm by Mighty Quinn

sprint2thecup wrote:
oaklandwarriors wrote:

david lee is the first option as much as curry. curry's surrounded by better players than irving, of course he's got a better record. they're both really good. but the one i could see maturing into the league's best guard or close is kyrie. he's more athletic and less injury prone, he's very clutch too.

Au contraire. The Warriors clearly need Curry. Lee had no answer for the Heat.
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Post#644 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:17 pm by GreenHat

KingCuban wrote:
kamelion4291 wrote:
If you do everything for your team, and you're universally regarded as the best player in the NBA, and your team is leading your conference and coming off an NBA championship, you'd have a pretty hard time making a case that they wouldn't be the Most Valuable Player in the NBA.


Not when you are behind OKC and Durant by 5 games, whilst only holding down 1st place out East marginally, and being only 3 games ahead of 5th place out in the horrible East.


And the two big reasons that the Heat are behind the Thunder are defense and rebounding. Hard to make a compelling case that Durant is so far superior in those areas as to make the difference.
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Post#645 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:20 pm by GreenHat

ShowTimeERA wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:It is a two man race. I'm sorry for Chris Paul but the gap between him and LeBron or Durant is just huge.

LeBron is still the better player so Durant needs a better record by 3 or 4 games at least.


Wait so Durant gets penalized for havin to play in the brutal western conference whereas Lebron benefits from playing out east along with two other top 15 players. Best player on team with best record wins it seeing as Lebron and Durant have played neck and neck thus far.


Heat are 11-7 against the East but 15-5 against the West.

Thunder are 12-5 against the East and 20-4 against the West.

The West is better but both teams have had a harder time against the East this season.
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Post#646 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:32 pm by arifgokcen

GreenHat wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:It is a two man race. I'm sorry for Chris Paul but the gap between him and LeBron or Durant is just huge.

LeBron is still the better player so Durant needs a better record by 3 or 4 games at least.


Wait so Durant gets penalized for havin to play in the brutal western conference whereas Lebron benefits from playing out east along with two other top 15 players. Best player on team with best record wins it seeing as Lebron and Durant have played neck and neck thus far.


Heat are 11-7 against the East but 15-5 against the West.

Thunder are 12-5 against the East and 20-4 against the West.

The West is better but both teams have had a harder time against the East this season.

East has better defensive teams compared to west.Outside of top 4 of west everyplayoff team in east has a better defense than west teams
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Post#647 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:41 pm by Benedict_Boozer

Durant got some pub on ESPN today, Adande had an article saying he was the 1st half MVP over Lebron.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/88688 ... t-half-mvp
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Post#648 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:46 pm by Hero

General public seems to have it very close.

Who is your first-half NBA MVP?


40%
Kevin Durant

39%
LeBron James

21%
Someone else

Discuss (Total votes: 6,342)

Record Difference doesn't matter that much.
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Post#649 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:02 pm by Clyde Frazier

Interesting breakdown of all the loose parameters that go into MVP voting (with rankings):

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-o ... -or-lebron

NBA.com's current rankings:

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
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Post#650 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:51 pm by TwentyOne920

arifgokcen wrote:
Heat are 11-7 against the East but 15-5 against the West.

Thunder are 12-5 against the East and 20-4 against the West.

The West is better but both teams have had a harder time against the East this season.

East has better defensive teams compared to west.Outside of top 4 of west everyplayoff team in east has a better defense than west teams[/quote]

The Warriors have a better Defensive Rating than the Knicks.
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bobly wrote:Kobe locked up his All Defensive Team this year after he blocked Lebron in the all-star game.
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