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Race to the MVP pt. III

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Post#646 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:32 pm by arifgokcen

GreenHat wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:It is a two man race. I'm sorry for Chris Paul but the gap between him and LeBron or Durant is just huge.

LeBron is still the better player so Durant needs a better record by 3 or 4 games at least.


Wait so Durant gets penalized for havin to play in the brutal western conference whereas Lebron benefits from playing out east along with two other top 15 players. Best player on team with best record wins it seeing as Lebron and Durant have played neck and neck thus far.


Heat are 11-7 against the East but 15-5 against the West.

Thunder are 12-5 against the East and 20-4 against the West.

The West is better but both teams have had a harder time against the East this season.

East has better defensive teams compared to west.Outside of top 4 of west everyplayoff team in east has a better defense than west teams
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Post#647 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:41 pm by Benedict_Boozer

Durant got some pub on ESPN today, Adande had an article saying he was the 1st half MVP over Lebron.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/88688 ... t-half-mvp
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Post#648 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:46 pm by Hero

General public seems to have it very close.

Who is your first-half NBA MVP?


40%
Kevin Durant

39%
LeBron James

21%
Someone else

Discuss (Total votes: 6,342)

Record Difference doesn't matter that much.
ImissJordan wrote:I hate any team with LeBron James on it.

LakersDynasty14 wrote:With Durant injured Kobe could be the best player in the Western Conference. In his 19th season, and he can still put up 30+ every night.
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Post#649 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:02 pm by Clyde Frazier

Interesting breakdown of all the loose parameters that go into MVP voting (with rankings):

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-o ... -or-lebron

NBA.com's current rankings:

http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
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Post#650 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:51 pm by TwentyOne920

arifgokcen wrote:
Heat are 11-7 against the East but 15-5 against the West.

Thunder are 12-5 against the East and 20-4 against the West.

The West is better but both teams have had a harder time against the East this season.

East has better defensive teams compared to west.Outside of top 4 of west everyplayoff team in east has a better defense than west teams[/quote]

The Warriors have a better Defensive Rating than the Knicks.
bertrob wrote:Any casual fan saying anything about Tim Duncan is usually wrong


bobly wrote:Kobe locked up his All Defensive Team this year after he blocked Lebron in the all-star game.
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Post#651 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:53 am by imchillin

Black Feet wrote:There are lots of players that guard multiple positions, Earl Clark for example has Guarded all 5 positions since starting for the Lakers. He's guarded everyone from Duncan to Durant to Ellis. Lebrons defense always gets overrated on this forum, probably because all the bandwagon fans he has.


lol Earl Clark, reach much?
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Post#652 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:01 am by fallacy

Durant: 32 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 12-19 fg, 5-6 3pt, 3-3 ft, W


OKC blows out the Clippers in LA and Durant single handedly did it all by himself in the fourth. OKC/Durant also did it without being fouled (since RealGM has turned into an OKC only wins because of refs circlejerk lately), Clippers had a 26 to 17 foul advantage.


Lucky for Lebron the MVP race doesn't end today, because it would be Durant's

**** Ron Artest
**** Marco Belinelli
Stephen Jackson aint bout dis lyfe
Patrick Beverly deserves to have his knee ripped to pieces
fallacy




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Post#653 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:20 am by fallacy

Jared Dubin ‏@JADubin5
Kevin Durant had a 104.8 TS% in the second half.
**** Ron Artest
**** Marco Belinelli
Stephen Jackson aint bout dis lyfe
Patrick Beverly deserves to have his knee ripped to pieces
fallacy




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Post#654 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:33 am by SweetTouch

CP3 keeps going down

You can't miss games being injured

smh at that clip Odom and Griffin playing the 4 and 5
Stop being so disrespectful.
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Post#655 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:41 am by AAAAA1

Lebron is more valuable to his team and would be to any team than Durant.

Lebron's midrange and 3 pointer have been remarkable as well.

Of course his defense and low turnovers eat Durant's alive
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Post#656 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:44 am by fallacy

Durant's last 9 games

35 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 101-194 fg (52%), 28-65 3pt (43%), 83-89 ft (93%)


Good luck
**** Ron Artest
**** Marco Belinelli
Stephen Jackson aint bout dis lyfe
Patrick Beverly deserves to have his knee ripped to pieces
fallacy




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Post#657 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:49 am by NaturalThunder

fallacy wrote:Durant's last 9 games
101-194 fg (52%), 28-65 3pt (43%), 83-89 ft (93%)


Good luck

And that's with two stinkers in there where he shot a combined 20/51 (39%) against the Mavs and Nuggets. Thing is, he was just missing open shots he's been making all year. That's going to happen to him from time to time since those shots are open 18-20 foot jumpers, runners, floaters, and post-up faders, but it's still an open shot for him 9 times out of 10 because of his size and length.
GetItDone wrote:Durant continues to be the most overrated player in basketball.
Once again disappears in the 4th. On paper it looks like he played good, but he wasn't anything great. When defenses get tighter Durant gets exposed. He can't do much besides shoot jumpers.
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Post#658 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:32 am by SideshowBob

Saw some discussion on James's defense a few pages back, so I'm posting this here (from PC Board).

SideshowBob wrote:I've seen a few people ask about Lebron's defense, and thought this might be a good time to get to it.

He's a guy who anchors the half-court defense from the perimeter by: covering as much of the floor as possible (horizontal game), playing disciplined within sets and forcing others to do the same (team defenses are designed to reduce overall opposing offensive efficiency, therefore, staying true to the system on a team level tends to produce better defensive results than an individual exerting effort on stopping an opposing individual), using his combination of length and quickness to rotate and recover VERY fast, using his versatility in defending the PnR as he can cover both the handler and the roll-man and be effective on the switch with virtually any combination. On top of that, he's also decent weak-side shot blocker, and has a great knack for playing the passing lanes.

This kind of defense:

A.) Creates a ton of turnovers. Miami is currently #8 in the league in oppTOV% and is trending upwards (they were #16 just a week ago). Last year, they were #3. In 2011, they were only #26, and the 2010 Cavs were only #24, but the 09 Cavs were #10.

Opponent TOV% with Lebron on the floor

Miami

2013: #1 (16.7%)
2012: #1 (18.5%)
2011: #5 (14.5%)

Cleveland

2010: #5 (14.3%)
2009: #1 (16.2%)



B.) Decreases efficiency on all shots away from the rim. Because of his length, quickness, and discipline on the perimeter, he usually helps anchor a perimeter defense that traps aggressively, prevents penetration, recovers quickly (shots are almost always at least partially contested), and is backed up by an smaller interior defense that denies position (also one of James staples). This forces either contested shots, or forced low-percentage shots. Lebron's defenses tend to allow much more attempts from 10-15 feet on average, while forcing all shots inside the 3-point line to be low-percentage.

In 2012, they allowed the 10th most attempts from 10-15 ft, but gave up only 35.7% of them (6th best). From 16-23 feet, they allowed the 19th most attempts, but gave up only 37.6% of them (12th). This year, they allow the 13th most attempts from 10-15 ft, but give up only 36.6% of them (3rd best). From 16-23 ft, they allow the 25th most attempts, but give up 36.6% of them (10th best). I'd delve into more seasons, but Hoopdata's site is being a pain right now.



C.) makes it difficult for the opposing offense to GET good shots and positioning near the rim. Again, here, its his versatility that comes into play. The perimeter defense he anchors and his smarts on the PnR make it difficult for the ball to get inside. On the flip side, his strength and length are often a great tool for ball-denial and single-coverage in the post. He's great at fronting guys and this can often take the league's better post scorers out of offensive action, instead of forcing them into bad shots. When they're able to get the ball, they still draw the attention of the defense, which creates offensive rebounding opportunities, easy buckets for off-ball guys on the move and open shots for guys on the perimeter. In these situation, James's man defense becomes important, because its often in the defenses best interest for him to force the player into a bad shot.

HOWEVER, when he forces ball-denial, it can throw the entire opposing offense out of whack. In sets designed to take advantage of an inside scorer (in the manner described above), James's aggressive fronting does a couple things. He forces precious time off the shot clock, giving less time for the rest of the team to create something, which tends to lead to a higher percentage of bad or contested shots OR turnover. He also likely denies the opposing offense their primary method of attack in the running play, forcing them to either start fresh, or exhibit some sort of counter or wrinkle, which again, tends to lead to a high probability of decreased offensive efficiency.

Again, we can see evidence of this in the team based stats.

Opponent FG% at Rim

Miami

2013: 61.6% (6th best)
2012: 57.7% (2nd best)
2011: 58.0% (1st best)

Cleveland

2010: 58.3% (6th best)
2009: 59.3% (6th best)

Keep in mind, this is without ANY prominent shot blockers on these teams. James was actually the team leader in total blocked shots in those two Cleveland years, and Anthony has typically been the leader in Miami, with just over 1 per game.

Opponent eFG% with Lebron on the floor

Miami

2013: 48.3% (#10)
2012: 47.7% (#8)
2011: 46.9% (#2)

Cleveland

2010: 48.2% (#3)
2009: 46.4% (#1)

Now, the last thing I'd get to is transition. Here, James is arguably the best in the league. He's typically extremely active in transition; he creates turnovers independently, we've seen him often just grabbing the ball out of the handler's hands, but he's also frequently looking for poorly timed passes. Furthermore, he's known for his shot-blocking on the break, which I'm starting to believe is getting a bit underrated.

Firstly, he's creating hesitation on the break and in transition this way. Transition baskets are generally the highest percentage baskets in the game; however, Lebron's shotblocking threat here can affect efficiency, which is crucial as its turning near-100% buckets into slightly lower ones. If that doesn't happen, we'll see the handler often slow it down to avoid the shotblock, and instead wait for the rest of the team to arrive in order to engage the offense. Again, this is always going to be less efficient in the long run than getting an easy transition bucket.

Second and less importantly, notice that he tends to block the shot directly off the backboard, which oftentimes not only allows Miami/Cleveland to maintain possession of the ball, but frequently triggers a fastbreak in the other direction. Even if this doesn't occur, the opposing team will almost ALWAYS be in a poor position to get into proper defensive positioning, and I'd wager that Miami/Cleveland's offensive efficiency on possessions after a Lebron chasedown block is noticeably higher than average. This is literally creating OFFENSE out of DEFENSE.

All-in-all, James is arguably the most dynamic defender in the league, and I can make this claim without giving his positional versatility much prominence at all. His overall contributions on help-defense and dominance in transition make him among the most impactful non-big defensive player in the league, and for that matter, he's better than a lot of elite prototypical bigs as well.


Note that I'm posting this strictly to add to the earlier discussion, not to make Lebron's MVP case, seeing as I have Durant over him (though just barely).
Marty Hart wrote:Every time I think you hit a ceiling, you just keep raising the bar. You are like the Michael Jordan of being a son of a bitch.
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Post#659 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:06 am by Mighty Quinn

^top notch post, sir.
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Post#660 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:29 am by KingCuban

fallacy wrote:
Jared Dubin ‏@JADubin5
Kevin Durant had a 104.8 TS% in the second half.


Wow. This is absurd. I mean, ****. Incredible.

Today, he was unbelievable.

I know the Lebron fans have their right to an opinion, but Durant has been unbelievable this season.

He is definitely in front, regardless of who is more valuable to his team, who is the better player etc.
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Post#661 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:21 am by lorak

Durant is great, he probably is playing GOAT scoring season, but the game is more than just scoring. And even is Durant is slightly better on offense than James (what's arguable, because LJ is much better playmaker), then there's still the other end of the court. And LeBron is defensive anchor of Heat and as showed by great SideshowBob's post, LJ is amazing defender. So no doubt he's better player than Durant. Is he also MVP? I guess it depends on criteria. If team result means more than actual contribution to that results then yeah, whey not Durant?
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Post#662 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:40 am by chales_zed

Lebron is the best player in the league, but is Durant more valuable?

There's a massive influx of combo-guards. Rose, Westbrook, Lillard, Irving, Holiday, Jennings, Wall and they're all ball-dominant slashers. If you placed Lebron in those teams, sure they're better, but there's also redundancy just like on the Heat with Lebron and Wade because, for example, a tandem of Rose and Lebron are at their best when they've both got the ball in their hands to create for others and for themselves, usually by slashing to the basket.

Whereas Durant is great without needing to dominate the ball. Westbrook can dribble the air out of it and take all his shots and Durant will still get his 30 points on elite efficiency. And he's a threat to catch and shoot from anywhere on the field, you'd have to get a long defender to stick on him like glue wherever he chooses to roam, I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Barnes follows him into the locker-room and toilet breaks, he's just too much of a scoring threat.
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Post#663 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:06 am by ShowTimeERA

As of 1/23

1. Durant


2. Paul/Lebron

The gap between Lebron and Durant for best player in the NBA is extremely close...
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Post#664 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:17 am by WinisKing

ShowTimeERA wrote:As of 1/23

1. Durant


2. Paul/Lebron

The gap between Lebron and Durant for best player in the NBA is extremely close...

Overreaction from one good game by Durant

The same can be said about those who place Lebron ahead after every Heat win
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Post#665 Re: Race to the MVP pt. III
Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:36 am by ShowTimeERA

WinisKing wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:As of 1/23

1. Durant


2. Paul/Lebron

The gap between Lebron and Durant for best player in the NBA is extremely close...

Overreaction from one good game by Durant

The same can be said about those who place Lebron ahead after every Heat win


Not at all, I post my current MVP rankings on a weekly basis. Those who place Lebron ahead after every Heat win are the one's grasping for anything they can grab onto in order to run into this thread...
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