Steve Nash 10000th Career Assit

[Dipper 13]

Oscar

The Big O: My Life, My Times, My Game - Oscar Robertson

Assists are also counted differently today. When I played, an assist was "without a dribble going to the basket." If I passed the ball inbounds to you, and you dribbled the ball once, that pass was not counted as an assist. I was the all- time leader in assists for almost twenty years, until the early 1990s, when Magic Johnson broke my record (Utah's John Stockton has since shattered that). But again, the rules are different now. These days, the rules allow you one dribble, but everyone knows that I can pass you the ball inbounds, have you dribble it the length of the court and hit a jump shot, and there's a fifty-fifty chance that I'll get the assist. If assists had been defined this way back in the early 1960s, I would have had another six or seven thousand.

[leolozon]

Good job.

But since we are now ranking him All-Time, it took him 4 more seasons than Magic to reach 10,000....

and he played 3 more seasons than Oscar Robertson and Isaiah Thomas.

No way is he the 3rd best all time. Nash is not even top 4. He plays the worst defense out of any PG in the top 10.

1) Magic
2) Stockton
3) Oscar Robertson
4) Jason Kidd


Heck, I can make an argument than Kevin Johnson was better than Nash.

And you didn't even mention how bad he is working with post players.

He's the perfect Pringles player. Hell, Antoni is the most pitiful Name Coach in the entire NBA, and might be up for worst in recent history.

Yeah, let's just say everything he is worst at, and let's not talk about the things he is better at. Let's not talk about efficiency and 50-40-90 (creating mostly his own shot off the dribble)... Let's not talk about how he is probably the greatest offensive floor general of all-time. Very fair the way you are doing things : just looking one way.

The Greatest Offenses in NBA History
1. 2007 Phoenix Suns
2. 2005 Phoenix Suns
3. 1971 Milwaukee Bucks
4. 2010 Phoenix Suns
5. 1982 Denver Nuggets
6. 2004 Dallas Mavericks
7. 1975 Houston Rockets
8. 1987 Los Angeles Lakers
9. 2004 Sacremento Kings
10. 2006 Phoenix Suns
11. 2009 Phoenix Suns

That's if you consider only by 100 possessions. But if we compare with the league average of each year, it seems like Nash lead the 5 best offensive teams. (It's in an article from Hollinger, but I'm not an insider.)

Is he a below average defensive player? Yes. But he is a far better offensive player than he is a bad defensive player. If Nash was a company, then his revenues would exceeds his costs, therefore he is in the profit. His adjusted plus/minus has been doing fine. Didn't he lead the league a couple of times? Wasn't he ahead of other point guards? Well maybe he is doing fine with team defense, something that is probably more important than one on one defense. And maybe his offense is so good that it offsets greatly the defensive part.

Also :
http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2012/01/in ... art-1.html

And then when you think of the intangibles (great character guy, great personality, played with a bad back most of his career) and how he manages to play so efficiently despite his physical limits (below average speed, jump and explosiveness)... you appreciate him even more.

The guy got better in his 30s because of hard work. Not sure how a poster before used the fact that he peaked at an older age like something bad. Even his FT percentage got better with time because he worked his ass off.

[Biff]

Oscar

The Big O: My Life, My Times, My Game - Oscar Robertson

Assists are also counted differently today. When I played, an assist was "without a dribble going to the basket." If I passed the ball inbounds to you, and you dribbled the ball once, that pass was not counted as an assist. I was the all- time leader in assists for almost twenty years, until the early 1990s, when Magic Johnson broke my record (Utah's John Stockton has since shattered that). But again, the rules are different now. These days, the rules allow you one dribble, but everyone knows that I can pass you the ball inbounds, have you dribble it the length of the court and hit a jump shot, and there's a fifty-fifty chance that I'll get the assist. If assists had been defined this way back in the early 1960s, I would have had another six or seven thousand.

I'm sorry, but that's absolute nonsense. I have never seen someone get an assist like that. If that were true, every basket would have an assist attached to it.

[Biff]

5th all time to do it

Amazing consistency over his career, still playing a elite level today

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html < There is the list

Amazingly consistent? In his first 8 seasons Nash never even averaged 9 assists once. Through those 8 seasons he was at 3, 339 assists. At the rate he was going back then he would be hovering around 7,000 assists today, as he averaged 6 assists per game in his first 8 season, or 7 assists if we only factor his years as a starter; since returning to PHX in 04 he's averaged 10.9 assists per. That's a striking gap between two 8 season stretches, and points once again to something highly questionable about Nash's career arc, particularly as the gap goes the wrong way (better at 30+ than he was in his twenties, and not by a small amount). Now, for the answer...

The D'antoni/post-handcheck era from 04/05 on dramatically changed Nash, both as far as media status and stat production. Everyone knows that stat inflation is rampant both from SSOL and the league-wide rule changes to favor perimeter players on offense. Nash is one of the poster boys for both.

Nash wasn't being utilized properly early on. Did handchecking help? Sure, but if it were THAT much of an advantage, we'd have a lot more PG's averaging over 10apg. This is way overblown. Defenses are much faster and better today than they were in the 80's. Pace is also a lot slower. So get out of here with this nonsense. You can't pick one aspect and disregard all the others to support your argument that Nash isn't one of the best passers in NBA history.

[leolozon]

Good job.

But since we are now ranking him All-Time, it took him 4 more seasons than Magic to reach 10,000....

and he played 3 more seasons than Oscar Robertson and Isaiah Thomas.

No way is he the 3rd best all time. Nash is not even top 4. He plays the worst defense out of any PG in the top 10.

1) Magic
2) Stockton
3) Oscar Robertson
4) Jason Kidd


Heck, I can make an argument than Kevin Johnson was better than Nash.

Seasons? You are really going by seasons? At least say games, it would show less of your bias. Nash didn't even start in his first 2 seasons (played an average of around 16 minutes), season 3 was a half-season (he hurt his back also) and he started about half the games in his 4th season (also injured his ankle and missed 25 games). Instead of seasons or even games, you want to have a look at the number of minutes played? Go look at assists per 36 minutes.

Robertson called it quite at 35 years old when he was badly declining (12.7 / 6.4 / 4, .438 shooting, in 35.4 minutes). Nash is still going strong at nearly 39. Isn't endurance worth anything?
3 more seasons? Great argument...

As for Kidd, his defense may be better, but Nash's offense is far superior (adjusted plus-minus?).

I would say that Nash is in the discussion for the number 3 spots. I think Thomas and Robertson had better peak, but then you can argue that we should look at the whole career. I think he is better than Payton and Kidd even if you consider both ends on the floor, because he is so superior offensively and isn't bad at team defense. Chris Paul will probably be better than him, but it depends how his knee holds up.

[leolozon]

5th all time to do it

Amazing consistency over his career, still playing a elite level today

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html < There is the list

Amazingly consistent? In his first 8 seasons Nash never even averaged 9 assists once. Through those 8 seasons he was at 3, 339 assists. At the rate he was going back then he would be hovering around 7,000 assists today, as he averaged 6 assists per game in his first 8 season, or 7 assists if we only factor his years as a starter; since returning to PHX in 04 he's averaged 10.9 assists per. That's a striking gap between two 8 season stretches, and points once again to something highly questionable about Nash's career arc, particularly as the gap goes the wrong way (better at 30+ than he was in his twenties, and not by a small amount). Now, for the answer...

The D'antoni/post-handcheck era from 04/05 on dramatically changed Nash, both as far as media status and stat production. Everyone knows that stat inflation is rampant both from SSOL and the league-wide rule changes to favor perimeter players on offense. Nash is one of the poster boys for both.

And I guess it also made his shooting percentage go up... I guess it's also the reason why his FT percentage went up. He didn't just really get better in his 30s. That weird career arc is what makes Nash such a unique player. One has to wonder what his stats would have been if someone gave him the starting spot earlier. He only started in a full season in his 5th year, going from 8.6/4.9 to 15.6/7.3. His 5th season is basically the first season without an injury and with significant minutes.

As far as stat inflation, why aren't the top offense all from the 00s if it made it so much easier? Are there so much more assists now than back then? What stats are you basing your opinion on?