Why is defense considered ugly?

Sedale Threatt · Post #46 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:03 pm

I never thought the Spurs were as bad as everyone thought. What typically hurt them was that, outside of the Pistons in 05, they were playing crappy teams in the Finals, their big opportunity to showcase themselves.

And that Pistons/Spurs series, as competitive as it was, was brutal to watch because you had two world-class defenses choking each other out.

I don't care what anyone says -- going eight, nine possessions in a row with no points isn't exciting to watch. That happened pretty much every quarter in that series.

Sedale Threatt · Post #47 » by **Sedale Threatt** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:06 pm

An aside, Tim Duncan is my litmus test for basketball acumen. People who think he's boring obviously don't know anything about hoops, and our discussion can end there.

Post #48 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:29 pm

The defense isn't ugly, the opposing offense that results from the defense is ugly. But many times ugly games aren't just defense, but a mixture of really good defense and sloppy/bad offense. What is ugly isn't the really good defense, it is the sloppy / bad offense.

If you are moving the ball well and the defense just closes out and makes you take tough shots, that isn't ugly, just good defense. If you are playing iso ball and missing and wildly driving into traffic and getting turnovers and throwing awful passes, that's just ugly no matter what the defense is doing.

...but yes, slow paced defensive battles isn't really "fun" to watch. You can commend it, but it certainly isn't exciting to see two teams shoot 35% FG and score 40 points at half time.

rizkid92 · Post #49 » by **rizkid92** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:57 pm

Bskey wrote:The "goal" in basketball is to score.

In any scoring based sport, scoring is what truly excites people. This is something most definitely not unique to basketball.

Actually the "Goal" in basketball is to hold your opponents from scoring more than you

Post #50 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:24 pm

rizkid92 wrote:
Bskey wrote:The "goal" in basketball is to score.

In any scoring based sport, scoring is what truly excites people. This is something most definitely not unique to basketball.

Actually the "Goal" in basketball is to hold your opponents from scoring more than you

Why even do this? Neither of you is wrong, the goal is to have more points in the end. Whether you do it by aiming to score much more effectively or aiming to prevent your opponents from scoring as effectively, or best of all, both, as long as the end result is you with more points.

sisibilio · Post #51 » by **sisibilio** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:27 pm

og15 wrote:The defense isn't ugly, the opposing offense that results from the defense is ugly.

Poorly executed offenses are ugly, people sometimes equate low scoring affairs with good defenses, and that's not always the case.

Post #52 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:32 pm

sisibilio wrote:
og15 wrote:The defense isn't ugly, the opposing offense that results from the defense is ugly.

Poorly executed offenses are ugly, people sometimes equate low scoring affairs with good defenses, and that's not always the case.

Yea, exactly, the ugly is when a team isn't scoring because of sloppiness and iso ball with players that shouldn't iso so much, etc, not necessarily the defense.

rockmanslim · Post #53 » by **rockmanslim** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:39 pm

rizkid92 wrote:
Bskey wrote:The "goal" in basketball is to score.

In any scoring based sport, scoring is what truly excites people. This is something most definitely not unique to basketball.

Actually the "Goal" in basketball is to hold your opponents from scoring more than you

The real goal of pro sports is butts in seats and eyes on screens.

Scoring sells. It's why the NFL has made quarterbacks untouchable on the field. It's why Stern eliminated hand checking, put in the clear path rule, changed the 10 second backcourt violation to 8 seconds, etc. It's why MLB juiced their baseballs and their players.

Post #54 » by **Nuntius** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:15 pm

rockmanslim wrote:The real goal of pro sports is butts in seats and eyes on screens.

But the real goal of pro teams is to win a championship in their sport.

ChiCitySPORTS#1 · Post #55 » by **ChiCitySPORTS#1** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:20 pm

Missed shots, loose balls, hard fouls, turnovers and low scoring, are all characteristics that are prevalent in a game where 2 great defensive teams are playing each other. Rendering it 'ugly'.

rockmanslim · Post #56 » by **rockmanslim** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:37 pm

Nuntius wrote:
rockmanslim wrote:The real goal of pro sports is butts in seats and eyes on screens.

But the real goal of pro teams is to win a championship in their sport.

Because championships put butts in seats and eyes on screens.

Bskey · Post #57 » by **Bskey** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:19 am

rizkid92 wrote:
Bskey wrote:The "goal" in basketball is to score.

In any scoring based sport, scoring is what truly excites people. This is something most definitely not unique to basketball.

Actually the "Goal" in basketball is to hold your opponents from scoring more than you

Duh? Try doing that with a score of 0.

twix2500 · Post #58 » by **twix2500** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:53 am

Dominater wrote:Im one of those guys that generally leaned more tords the shootouts. i will say though that i was wowed by that Lakers/Celtics 2010 game 7. THAT was the most amazing grind-it-out hardcore defensive game ive ever witnessed, and loved every second of it

I love watching competition, imoveable object against the unstoppable force. Watching great contested shots makes the shot itself amazing. I hate watching chuckers and uncontested shots, otherwise i would just watch layup drills lol

Post #59 » by **Nuntius** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:27 am

rockmanslim wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
rockmanslim wrote:The real goal of pro sports is butts in seats and eyes on screens.

But the real goal of pro teams is to win a championship in their sport.

Because championships put butts in seats and eyes on screens.

Yes.

So, if a team can win a chip by being "boring" do you think that they're not going to do it? :wink:

GrandTheftRondo · Post #60 » by **GrandTheftRondo** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:30 am

Because you'll see lots of misses.

TwentyOne920 · Post #61 » by **TwentyOne920** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:37 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:I never thought the Spurs were as bad as everyone thought. What typically hurt them was that, outside of the Pistons in 05, they were playing crappy teams in the Finals, their big opportunity to showcase themselves.

And that Pistons/Spurs series, as competitive as it was, was brutal to watch because you had two world-class defenses choking each other out.

I don't care what anyone says -- going eight, nine possessions in a row with no points isn't exciting to watch. That happened pretty much every quarter in that series.

That was the best Spurs finals IMO, mostly because they more often than not locked up a ring after beating up the West.

rockmanslim · Post #62 » by **rockmanslim** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:20 am

rockmanslim wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
rockmanslim wrote:The real goal of pro sports is butts in seats and eyes on screens.

But the real goal of pro teams is to win a championship in their sport.

Because championships put butts in seats and eyes on screens.

Nuntius wrote:Yes.

So, if a team can win a chip by being "boring" do you think that they're not going to do it?

True, but it still goes against the preferences of every professional sports league in the US and A to favor offense over defense, which they do because they know it's good for business because it's what people watch sports for, for action.

Of course, some die hard fans want their team to win no matter what, boring or not, but sports leagues aren't after those die hard fans, as die hard fans will watch no matter what. They're after the casuals. Casuals want action. Not to mention the die hards who prefer action. If the owners didn't agree, the competition committees of each sport wouldn't have put in so many rules over the years to favor offenses. Yet that's exactly what they've done. Offense sells, action sells. Offense is sexy, sex sells.

Post #63 » by **Nuntius** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:34 am

rockmanslim wrote:True, but it still goes against the preferences of every professional sports league in the US and A to favor offense over defense, which they do because they know it's good for business because it's what people watch sports for, for action.

Of course, some die hard fans want their team to win no matter what, boring or not, but sports leagues aren't after those die hard fans, as die hard fans will watch no matter what. They're after the casuals. Casuals want action. Not to mention the die hards who prefer action. If the owners didn't agree, the competition committees of each sport wouldn't have put in so many rules over the years to favor offenses. Yet that's exactly what they've done. Offense sells, action sells. Offense is sexy, sex sells.

I feel that the point of the OP is that defense can be sexy as well.

Post #64 » by **kingkirk** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:56 am

Its ugly because it doesn't sell to the casual fan or Mike D'Antoni, but for an enthusiast, its gorgeous.

Bskey wrote:The "goal" in basketball is to score.

In any scoring based sport, scoring is what truly excites people. This is something most definitely not unique to basketball.

Or to make sure you hold your opponents to less points.

Bskey · Post #65 » by **Bskey** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:17 am

KingCuban wrote:Its ugly because it doesn't sell to the casual fan or Mike D'Antoni, but for an enthusiast, its gorgeous.

Bskey wrote:The "goal" in basketball is to score.

In any scoring based sport, scoring is what truly excites people. This is something most definitely not unique to basketball.

Or to make sure you hold your opponents to less points.

Well it's called a field goal for a reason. Of course you have to score more than the other team to win, and part of that is defense. Doesn't change the goal.