How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse?

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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#41 » by MVP Rose » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:23 pm

Nuntius wrote:
Interesting. Isn't Rose supposed to return after the ASG? That's what the Wiretap said yesterday.

According to all sources, Granger will return prior to the ASG. So, during that time Indy could take a bigger lead on the Central.



Assuming the 2 teams stay neck and neck with each other sans Granger/Rose, I don't anticipate a few games of Granger's return will significantly tilt the order of the Central. Indy might jump out to a few games lead at most, but I also anticipate that at some point the Bulls will make a run with Rose back, even if his minutes are limited in the beginning.

There is also another question. Will Rose be close to 100% when he returns? It's well established that basketball players that suffered an ACL injury return to 100% in their 2nd year and not immediatedly after the end of the rehabilitation period.


He probably won't be the MVP caliber player he was before, but even a Rose at 80 or 90% is still more athletic than most PGs in the league. Just having a player that can handle the ball, score a little bit, play defense, will be huge. I'm personally tired of seeing Nate Robinson/Hinrich man the PG spot every game. It's a testament to Thibodeau's coaching this season that the Bulls have sustained a good record despite such persistent mediocrity from what is the most important position on the floor. To summarize my point more effectively, even if Rose comes back and has the impact of, say, Raymond Felton, the Bulls will still be a significantly better team as a result because he will fill a position that has given so little production to us all season.

Also, how will Rose adapt to a potential loss of athleticism? Will he invent an old-man game to fall back on?


He's always been a skilled player, regardless of the athleticism. He probably has the best floater in the league when he's playing. He plays the pick & roll well, can push the ball in transition, create open shots, and his penetration (even if not the same right away) frees up even more room for the bigs. What is already an elite offensive rebounding team, could get better by default just with Rose's presence.

Why do you think that? Granger is a better defender than Stephenson (who is doing great in his absence). With Granger in the line-up instead of Stephenson we add even more size and length in our line-up.


Granger gives more size but less speed than Stephenson; it is a trade off, imo. Not to mention that Granger has never really been hailed for his defense, in fact quite the contrary. The problem I also have with Granger is that too often he takes dumb shots (usually long 2s or chucks 3s) and as a result of these low% shots, puts his defense in a tough position because other teams can run out on the fast break. I'll reserve judgment until he plays though. Maybe he proves me wrong. But strictly going by what I've seen in the past from Granger, I definitely think Indy takes a step back defensively with him in the lineup.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#42 » by PetroNet » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:47 pm

im sure im biased because i dont watch them alot, but they just seem like pretenders to me. i love paul george and am a george hill fan as well but they just dont really impose their will. their offense is pretty average, they really dont make you work hard to limit them in that aspect. defensively they are solid, but again, they dont impose their will. they are a team where they wont beat themselves, but they also arent going out and beating you. Hibbert is also as soft as tissue paper and an extremely overrated player.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#43 » by daschysta » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:55 pm

PetroNet wrote:im sure im biased because i dont watch them alot, but they just seem like pretenders to me. i love paul george and am a george hill fan as well but they just dont really impose their will. their offense is pretty average, they really dont make you work hard to limit them in that aspect. defensively they are solid, but again, they dont impose their will. they are a team where they wont beat themselves, but they also arent going out and beating you. Hibbert is also as soft as tissue paper and an extremely overrated player.


They most certainly do impose their will defensively. You don't have (by far) the best field goal defense in the NBA without imposing your will defensively, ditto to being the best rebounding and a top 3 shotblocking team. The offensive commentary is fair, but they impose their will defensively more than any other team in the NBA, it's what is winning them ball games. Holding opponents to 41 percent from the field and 34 percent from 3 on average is pretty much the textbook definition of imposing your will on the other team. You aren't a 26-16 team despite being 2nd to last offensively if you aren't dominating the other team defensively almost every night.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#44 » by TwentyOne920 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:56 pm

PetroNet wrote:im sure im biased because i dont watch them alot, but they just seem like pretenders to me. i love paul george and am a george hill fan as well but they just dont really impose their will. their offense is pretty average, they really dont make you work hard to limit them in that aspect. defensively they are solid, but again, they dont impose their will. they are a team where they wont beat themselves, but they also arent going out and beating you. Hibbert is also as soft as tissue paper and an extremely overrated player.


Watching them a few times I noticed that one aspect they could do better on offense would be swinging the ball around a tad faster.

What I don't get is how Chicago's 21st in offense despite Rose being out, whilst Indiana is 29th despite a presumably less important player in Granger missing time.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#45 » by Jake0890 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:29 am

TwentyOne920 wrote:
PetroNet wrote:im sure im biased because i dont watch them alot, but they just seem like pretenders to me. i love paul george and am a george hill fan as well but they just dont really impose their will. their offense is pretty average, they really dont make you work hard to limit them in that aspect. defensively they are solid, but again, they dont impose their will. they are a team where they wont beat themselves, but they also arent going out and beating you. Hibbert is also as soft as tissue paper and an extremely overrated player.


Watching them a few times I noticed that one aspect they could do better on offense would be swinging the ball around a tad faster.

What I don't get is how Chicago's 21st in offense despite Rose being out, whilst Indiana is 29th despite a presumably less important player in Granger missing time.


Watching 82 games of Pacers basketball a year, I'd have to say that the Pacers offensive scheme has more problems than just swinging the ball around faster. I think the main problem is that their offense is too predictable, teams know what the Pacers are going to do before they do it. Generally, their offensive possessions start with Hibbert setting a screen at the 3 pt line, and George Hill trying to drive, kick out, or pass to Hibbert. Hibbert isn't good enough to go 1-on-1 in the post with most players, so the PnR is really the best way to get him open. And when the PnR doesn't work, the possession usually turns to iso. I really don't like the almost over simplicity of most possessions, but I can't complain about the record.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#46 » by JDRochholz » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:41 am

Partly because everyone knows that when Rose comes back for Chicago, Indy becomes inferior and irrelevant once again. :wink:
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#47 » by PetroNet » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:57 am

daschysta wrote:
PetroNet wrote:im sure im biased because i dont watch them alot, but they just seem like pretenders to me. i love paul george and am a george hill fan as well but they just dont really impose their will. their offense is pretty average, they really dont make you work hard to limit them in that aspect. defensively they are solid, but again, they dont impose their will. they are a team where they wont beat themselves, but they also arent going out and beating you. Hibbert is also as soft as tissue paper and an extremely overrated player.


They most certainly do impose their will defensively. You don't have (by far) the best field goal defense in the NBA without imposing your will defensively, ditto to being the best rebounding and a top 3 shotblocking team. The offensive commentary is fair, but they impose their will defensively more than any other team in the NBA, it's what is winning them ball games. Holding opponents to 41 percent from the field and 34 percent from 3 on average is pretty much the textbook definition of imposing your will on the other team. You aren't a 26-16 team despite being 2nd to last offensively if you aren't dominating the other team defensively almost every night.


liek i said, im biased because i dont see them alot... but when we played Indy we did whatever we wanted offensively, got a ton of easy open shots, and really had no issue scoring at gaurd, wing, or down low.

as far as defensively, i think they just force teams to execute more then they dominate or impose their will on anyone. i think they are super disciplined, and that goes a long way, especially in the east. but i think they are a pretty overrated defensive team... but agian, admittedly my view is probably skewed because of the few game si watched them their defense looks average
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#48 » by jc23 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:01 am

no superstar.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#49 » by Illogicality » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:27 am

Indiana's had the second easiest schedule in the entire NBA.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#50 » by Jake0890 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:45 am

JDRochholz wrote:Partly because everyone knows that when Rose comes back for Chicago, Indy becomes inferior and irrelevant once again. :wink:


Indiana's gonna with the Central this year. :)
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#51 » by 83SixersRocked » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:50 am

Because we don't like them. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Indy is... the uniform. Should be a player. Until then...
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#52 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:51 am

branny wrote:
TwentyOne920 wrote:Their SRS hasn't been as great as the top 3 teams and they have a very easy schedule.

That said, I actually want them to make a deep playoff run a la Detroit.


Yep as 21 basically said, their SOS has been ranked last in the league..


Piggy backing on the main point here:

This is a team without the talent to get anyone excited before the season who currently has an SRS worse than 8 teams in the Western Conference who has excited a few simply because they take early W-L records too seriously.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#53 » by Nuntius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:53 am

illiance wrote:They don't have a actual All-Star.


Paul George should be one this year :wink:
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#54 » by Nuntius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:55 am

panthermark wrote:Is Granger going to start or come off the bench? If he starts, will that move George back to SG? Pretty tall line-up....but I think the Pacers would be better served with Granger coming off the bench as a scorer/stretch 4.


He will be coming off the bench in the first few games but he is expected to start again when he gets 100%.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#55 » by bullsnewdynasty » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:00 am

Jake0890 wrote:
JDRochholz wrote:Partly because everyone knows that when Rose comes back for Chicago, Indy becomes inferior and irrelevant once again. :wink:


Indiana's gonna with the Central this year. :)


That isn't gonna happen, the Bulls have a better record right now and they're not even playing with Rose or Deng right now.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#56 » by Nuntius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:11 am

MVP Rose wrote:Assuming the 2 teams stay neck and neck with each other sans Granger/Rose, I don't anticipate a few games of Granger's return will significantly tilt the order of the Central. Indy might jump out to a few games lead at most, but I also anticipate that at some point the Bulls will make a run with Rose back, even if his minutes are limited in the beginning.


Indy has a big homestand in February and has a great home record (16-3). One could potentially see them getting some seperation in that period.

Bulls will probably make a run when Rose comes back but will it be enough? We'll have to wait and see.

It will surely be a dog fight, though.


MVP Rose wrote:He probably won't be the MVP caliber player he was before, but even a Rose at 80 or 90% is still more athletic than most PGs in the league.


True. But the thing with ACL injuries is that they impact the psychology of a player. Rose got injured doing what he does most of the time. Driving to the hole. He didn't step on anyone's foot, there wasn't any contact. He was just driving, stepped awkwardly and his knee gave out.

Will he keep driving to the hole relentlessly? Once again, we'll have to wait and see.

MVP Rose wrote:Just having a player that can handle the ball, score a little bit, play defense, will be huge. I'm personally tired of seeing Nate Robinson/Hinrich man the PG spot every game. It's a testament to Thibodeau's coaching this season that the Bulls have sustained a good record despite such persistent mediocrity from what is the most important position on the floor. To summarize my point more effectively, even if Rose comes back and has the impact of, say, Raymond Felton, the Bulls will still be a significantly better team as a result because he will fill a position that has given so little production to us all season.[


Agreed. He will surely be an upgrade over Kirk and Nate.

MVP Rose wrote:He's always been a skilled player, regardless of the athleticism. He probably has the best floater in the league when he's playing. He plays the pick & roll well, can push the ball in transition, create open shots, and his penetration (even if not the same right away) frees up even more room for the bigs. What is already an elite offensive rebounding team, could get better by default just with Rose's presence.


I agree with this but I want to see how is he going to adapt to not driving as often.

MVP Rose wrote:Granger gives more size but less speed than Stephenson; it is a trade off, imo. Not to mention that Granger has never really been hailed for his defense, in fact quite the contrary.


He was hailed as a good defender coming out off college and he was also a good defender in his rookie season. His defense fell off during the tenure of the horrible coach named Jim O'Brien. He was a good defender under Vogel last season.

MVP Rose wrote:The problem I also have with Granger is that too often he takes dumb shots (usually long 2s or chucks 3s) and as a result of these low% shots, puts his defense in a tough position because other teams can run out on the fast break. I'll reserve judgment until he plays though. Maybe he proves me wrong. But strictly going by what I've seen in the past from Granger, I definitely think Indy takes a step back defensively with him in the lineup.


He didn't take so many low% shots last year under Vogel. He shared the offensive load with the rest of the starters and focused more on D. My guess is that he will keep doing that this season.

It's true that Granger chucked a lot of 3s and long 2s in the past but this was under the tenure of O'Brin. He was a horrible coach that loved stretch 4s and quick 3s.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#57 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:14 am

Non superstar teams don't win titles, no matter how many times people bring up the Pistons.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#58 » by Nuntius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:15 am

TwentyOne920 wrote:What I don't get is how Chicago's 21st in offense despite Rose being out, whilst Indiana is 29th despite a presumably less important player in Granger missing time.


Because Granger is extremely important to Indiana's offense. Teams do not respect our 3 pt shot without Danny and thus clog the paint and limit the offensive impact of David West and Roy Hibbert. Teams that play inside-out need a perimeter player that you have to keep a hand on at all times. That's Granger.
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#59 » by Nuntius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:17 am

Illogicality wrote:Indiana's had the second easiest schedule in the entire NBA.


And they'll continue to have one of the easiest schedules in the end of the season :wink:
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Re: How come Indy gets no love as a Dark Horse? 

Post#60 » by Nuntius » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:20 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:
Jake0890 wrote:
JDRochholz wrote:Partly because everyone knows that when Rose comes back for Chicago, Indy becomes inferior and irrelevant once again. :wink:


Indiana's gonna with the Central this year. :)


That isn't gonna happen, the Bulls have a better record right now and they're not even playing with Rose or Deng right now.


Actually, both teams are 9 games over .500. The Bulls just have a better winning percentage because they have played 2 games less. That's not exactly a better record :wink:

A lot of things are going to depend on the outcome of the upcoming meetings of the two teams. The Pacers beat the Bulls in Chicago in the first meeting. Let's see what happens in Indy :)
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