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The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build without tanking)

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Post#61 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:40 pm by Nuntius

No Offense wrote:The question is whether you want to contend or make the playoffs.


What is Indiana doing right now?

Contending or making the playoffs?
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Post#62 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:49 pm by Knicks2DaHouse

Nuntius wrote:
No Offense wrote:The question is whether you want to contend or make the playoffs.


What is Indiana doing right now?

Contending or making the playoffs?

Both. I'm not buying what some people are saying,t he way people are discrediting the Pacers, f*ck they might as well **** on every other team aside from Miami, OKC, SA, and LAC
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Post#63 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:58 pm by daschysta


I like Paul George's game but he won't even come close to being a top 10 player. All-Star type talent but definitely not "the guy" you can build around and contend for a championship.


Adding to it, George is already a superstar defender, let's see how the best players at his position fared against him head to head?

Included on the list are the "star" Small forwards most bandied about in list wars, as well as the premier shooting guards that George matched up against (George is often put on the opponents greatest perimeter threat be he a 1 a 2 or a 3 (and sometimes even a four in the case of Anthony and Josh Smith) Almost unanimously George has held the best swingman in the NBA that he's gone head to head against to absolutely miserable shooting nights by their standards, and most of the time he's doubled that up by having a better game than them offensively as well. George is one of only 2 players (James, with Durant just barely missing out on rpg) who is top 20 in ppg top 30 in rpg, top 40 in apg and top 40 in 3 point % (though the list doesn't get any bigger even if you throw 3pt% out) he's also top 10 in SPG. His raw stats are already very good, especially when you take in to account his slow start and complete transformation post-november, but the stats alone don't account for his elite, top tier defense, even against the biggest stars at the 2 and 3 positions.

Carmelo Anthony 2 games

20.5 ppg 7.5 rpg .5 apg .372 % from the field

George-

23.5 ppg 5.5 rpg 3 apg .500 % from the field

LeBron James 2 games

25 ppg 8 rpg 3.5 apg .513% from the field 5 turnovers per game

Paul George-

22 ppg 8.5 rpg 4 apg .474 from the field 1.5 turnovers per game

Rudy Gay 3 games-

16 ppg 5.3 rpg 2.66 apg .297 from the field

Paul George -

19.3 ppg 10 rpg 6.3 apg .417 from the field

James Harden 1 game -

17 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg .263 from the field

Paul George-

31 ppg 6 rpg 3 apg .578 from the field 5 steals

Kevin Durant 1 game -

27 ppg 8 rpg 4 apg .375 from the field

Paul George-

17 ppg 8 rpg 3 apg .333 from the field

Nic Batum 2 games-

7.5 ppg 2.5 rpg 6 apg .333 from the field

Paul George-

22 ppg 7.5 rpg 3.5 apg .441 from the field

Luol Deng 2 games-

15 ppg 6.5 rpg 2.5 apg .272 from the field

Paul George -

27.5 ppg 10 rpg 3.5 apg .512 from the field

Andre Iguoldala 2 games-

11.5 ppg 5 rpg 4.5 apg .343 from the field

Paul George-

22.5 ppg 8 rpg 5.5 apg .562 from the field

Josh Smith 2 games -

10 ppg 7.5 rpg 3.5 apg .375 from the field

Paul George-

21 ppg 6 rpg 3 apg .406 from the field

Kobe Bryant 1 game-

40 ppg 10 rpg 3 apg 10 turnovers per game .426 from the field

Paul George-

12 ppg 9 rpg 2 apg .384 from the field


I think that covers most of the "marquee" guys that George has guarded, George's value isn't just in being a good scorer, elite rebounder and passer for his position, it's also that he's one of the only guys in the NBA who can legitimately limit the production of the players of a caliber listed above.

George absolutely has superstar potential, he has the ability to be in that conversation sooner rather than later.

He's already a superstar on the defensive end, unless forcing elite players into terrible games routinely, leading the NBA in defensive win shares and being top 5 in the NBA in personal DRTG means something else than I understand entirely.
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Post#64 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:07 am by Pacerlive

Nuntius wrote:
No Offense wrote:The question is whether you want to contend or make the playoffs.


What is Indiana doing right now?

Contending or making the playoffs?

Well this is the year we have to prove that we can take a team like a healthy Heat and push them to the brink of elimination. I get the Hawks 2.0 comparisons even if they are flawed to a large extent the Pacers have to show the East that we can play the D that slows the Heat. The Hawks never had the Pacers chemistry but the Pacers need to make the push to the ECF and get the Heat to a seven game series before we can expect people to call the Pacers contenders.
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Post#65 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:16 am by D12VCMagic

It is hard to build a good team that way. It can happen, but you can't rely on mid 1st rounders becoming game changers.
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Post#66 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:30 am by Nuntius

Pacerlive wrote:Well this is the year we have to prove that we can take a team like a healthy Heat and push them to the brink of elimination. I get the Hawks 2.0 comparisons even if they are flawed to a large extent the Pacers have to show the East that we can play the D that slows the Heat. The Hawks never had the Pacers chemistry but the Pacers need to make the push to the ECF and get the Heat to a seven game series before we can expect people to call the Pacers contenders.


I agree that we have to prove this in the playoffs.

But I also consider stupid to consider this team mediocre. A Bucks fan said it the best. The Pacers are not medocre. The Bucks are.
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Mankind..."

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Post#67 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:21 am by daschysta

Definitely not mediocre. Medioccre was the start to their season, adjusting to the loss of Granger, where they started 4-7. However they have been elite since.

Best records in the NBA (last 44 games)

SAS- 34-10
Miami- 32-12
OKC- 32-12
LAC- 31-13
IND- 30-14
DEN- 28-16
MEM- 27-17

Which is consistent with the lockout shortened season, where they had the 5th best record in the NBA. Only this time they are doing it without their best scorer, who is due to return. A team like the Clippers haven't proven it in the playoffs any more than Indiana, OKC lost in 5 to the heat as opposed to the Pacers' 6. Indiana shouldn't be a favorite or anything, but they are contenders, and have played like it for the majority of the season, and none of the teams listed above are expecting to get back a 29 year old career 18.2 ppg 56.4 TS% former all-star to give them an additional edge. Contender means anyone with a shot to make the NBA finals, and since Indy atm should be favored to make it to the ECF and face the Heat, who they match up with as well as any other team out there they are contenders. Just not frontrunners.
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Post#68 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:34 am by zronv7

If only they picked Faried at 14, and I agree that Bird had a lot to do with it. It's to bad he left, that contract to hill is terrible and I don't think Bird would of approved that contract.
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Post#69 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:35 am by Pimpwerx

This might also prove that building this way will never get you a title contender. I thought Indy had a lot of cap space to work with, but I guess they didn't. They certainly weren't able to sign any marquee player. Yeah, they have a solid roster, but that's all it is. That team is 2nd round fodder. When the games get tight in the important games (playoffs), they just don't have the talent to lean on to get them the needed buckets when they need them. Their offense is gonna be exposed as woefully inadequate yet again.

Tanking is a great way to get quality draft picks, and the other option is going to the FA market. Indy chose some strange middle road that's got them destined for the pretender treadmill. You heard it here first. PEACE.

EDIT: Okay. Apparently, you heard it first a few times on the previous pages. But just know I've held this opinion for a lot longer than this thread. :lol: Totally late the party.
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Post#70 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:39 am by BBall Loyalty

Pacers are going to be a Playoff team but not a championship calibre team. History has proven that you need superstars to win a title. Pacers have none. They might fluke a championship but the odds are against them.
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Post#71 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:40 am by daschysta

Pimpwerx wrote:This might also prove that building this way will never get you a title contender. I thought Indy had a lot of cap space to work with, but I guess they didn't. They certainly weren't able to sign any marquee player. Yeah, they have a solid roster, but that's all it is. That team is 2nd round fodder. When the games get tight in the important games (playoffs), they just don't have the talent to lean on to get them the needed buckets when they need them. Their offense is gonna be exposed as woefully inadequate yet again.

Tanking is a great way to get quality draft picks, and the other option is going to the FA market. Indy chose some strange middle road that's got them destined for the pretender treadmill. You heard it here first. PEACE.

EDIT: Okay. Apparently, you heard it first a few times on the previous pages. But just know I've held this opinion for a lot longer than this thread. :lol: Totally late the party.


ECF fodder maybe, but that also means 28 other teams in the league have it worse. Pacers are 2nd in the East, they are likely to be the favorite in a second round series if they have HCA. Pacers have a good shot against any team in the East except Miami. They are 6-1 against MIA/CHI/NYK afterall and haven't even had Granger for a single second yet this year, which is changing either tomorrow night or on tuesday evening.
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Post#72 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:40 am by branny

No Offense wrote:The question is whether you want to contend or make the playoffs.

Err..
NaturalThunder wrote:OKC killing Serge's MVP candidacy...2-0 without Ibaka on the season.
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Post#73 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:46 am by NCHeels2008

This team is better than the Mavs looked going into the 2011 playoffs, maybe Pistons going into the 2004 playoffs? They are darkhorses, but they got a shot.
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Post#74 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:03 am by MagicMadness

branny wrote:
No Offense wrote:The question is whether you want to contend or make the playoffs.

Err..


There is a difference. Except for some of the more recent very strong Western Conference races (where you had to win 50 games just to make the 8th seed), most of the time teams outside the top 4 in either conference really have no business truly having a shot - or a prayer - of actually winning the title.
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Post#75 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:09 am by Solid

Pacers are for real.
Got the offense clicking now and are a deep TEAM.

Three on nine wont work for the Heat this year... unless the fix is in.
James may hit god mode for a game or two but Pacers are just better.
Team ball may beat the darling this year!!
Whew! The league needs that!

San Antoinio scares me but they're old. OKC prolly do them for us.

It'll be a dog fight after that.
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Post#76 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:15 am by Pimpwerx

daschysta wrote:ECF fodder maybe, but that also means 28 other teams in the league have it worse. Pacers are 2nd in the East, they are likely to be the favorite in a second round series if they have HCA. Pacers have a good shot against any team in the East except Miami. They are 6-1 against MIA/CHI/NYK afterall and haven't even had Granger for a single second yet this year, which is changing either tomorrow night or on tuesday evening.

Regular season means nothing. They honestly only have to worry about NYK and MIA, but that's the problem. They're probably gonna face one of the two in the 2nd round. Healthy Miami will embarrass them, no matter what the regular season says. That's a 5 game series, because they have enough trouble scoring on a good day. A Miami defense that's motivated is gonna make that team look bad. NY can take them handily if they start playing some defense again. NY can turn to Melo in crunch time. Who's Indy turning to?

Their brand if physical defense works great in the regular season, when no one really cares. They also benefit from being an disrespected team. Teams don't get up to play the Pacers. Maybe Chicago, but they have more of a rivalry than other teams. They talk trash and try to act tough, but they are the epitome of 2nd round fodder in the playoffs. Then again, they might get by the Knicks and then end up getting curbstomped in the ECF.

It all comes down to their offense IMO. They are not a good offensive team, and have no go to guy. There is no one healthy or injured on that roster than you can rely on to get buckets when the chips are down. That's a reason most of us don't take the Clips or Grizz seriously, because it's clear that when rotations tighten and star power come to the fore, that Indy is 3rd or 4th best in the East in that department. They're lucky Rose is injured, because no one would even give a **** about them. Chicago would be winning that division easily. PEACE.
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Post#77 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:20 am by Solid

Thirty point wins in succession blows a hole in the offensive difficulties you see.
New York just isn't going to D up.

The heat are SMALL AND THIN. They were LUCKY to get a ring and I don't see it happening again.

D doesn't work in the playoffs?
Only if the refs are in your pocket.

Pacers are playing great right now and their best scorer is just warmin' up.
If you aint scared ...you're not payin' atention.
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Post#78 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:22 am by Nuntius

zronv7 wrote:If only they picked Faried at 14, and I agree that Bird had a lot to do with it. It's to bad he left, that contract to hill is terrible and I don't think Bird would of approved that contract.


I love Faried but if we kept our pick in 2011 we wouldn't have acquired George Hill.

Without George Hill I don't think we would be as good as we are now. His play is justifying his contract, by the way.

Also, there are some chances that Bird could return after this season. He is still consulting several of our players (especially Stephenson) and the initial reports was the stepped out due to his health for a season and he would be open to return after some time off.
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Mankind..."

She Painted Fire Across the Skyline, Part 3
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Post#79 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:39 am by Nuntius

Pimpwerx wrote:That's a 5 game series


It was a 6 game series last season when the Pacers were significantly worse. Yes, the Heat were missing Bosh and Ray Allen is a good addition (despite not having scored a single point against the Pacers this season) but Indiana has gotten a lot better in several areas.

1) Defense was good last year. It is elite this year. The Pacers unquestionably the #1 defensive team in the NBA at the moment.

2) Paul George wasn't even half of the player that he is right now.

3) Lance Stephenson wasn't even quarter of the player that he is right now.

4) We have added big man depth. In the MIA - IND series when Hibbert was on the bench, LeBron and Wade could frely waltz into our paint and score. Why? Because our back-up Center was Lou Amundson and he is hardly bigger than LeBron. Now we have Ian Mahinmi to back up Roy Hibbert. Remember Ian Mahinmi? He's the guy that backed up Tyson Chandler when Dallas beat you in the Finals.

You can claim that the Heat are the favorites. Of course, they are. You can also claim that it will be a 6 game series. This also could be true. But you cannot say it will be a 5 game series. It cannot be worse simply because the Pacers are significantly better.

PS: Oh and that's without Danny Granger.

Pimpwerx wrote:because they have enough trouble scoring on a good day.


The last few games are proof that they don't have trouble scoring on a good day.

Pimpwerx wrote:A Miami defense that's motivated is gonna make that team look bad.


Will motivation make up for a significant lack of size? We'll have to wait and see :)

Pimpwerx wrote:but they are the epitome of 2nd round fodder in the playoffs.


Again, we will have to wait and see :D

I remember when the Pacers were a "joke" and "lucky to make the 2nd round" last year. They were considered 1st round fodder prior to the playoffs.

Again, the playoffs are going to change the perception that the average fan has on this Indiana Pacers team.
"No wolf shall keep his secrets, no bird shall dance the skyline
And I am left with nothing but an oath that gleams like a sword
To bathe in the blood of man
Mankind..."

She Painted Fire Across the Skyline, Part 3
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Post#80 Re: The Pacers Core (a clinic in how to build
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:40 am by Da-Met

I'm a Pistons fan, and let me tell you, this Pacers team reminds me of the Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown Pistons teams in 03 and 04. They are underrated, dangerous, tough underdogs. I would not be shocked to see these guys upset Miami in one of the next 2 seasons. I think they are better than the Knicks.
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