Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young

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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#101 » by DayofMourning » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:34 am

[e] wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:If I was getting a player out of the deal and I was Philly, then I think Bennett would be a good return for Thad. AB has been getting a lot of flack, and deservedly so, but he does have some translatable skills to tap into. I also think he has a better personality than Waiters, which accounts for a lot.

Perfect fit for Philly, the guy sucks - perfect fit for a tanking team.

That's a straight up terrible return for Thad. One guy is a net positive asset (Thad) and the other is a negative (Bennett)


Its popular opinion to just dump on Bennett after one season. I happen to think that is too quick to analyze a prospect, especially one drafted first overall (no matter the talent of the draft). Thad isn't a long term solution for the Sixers when it all boils down. He isn't going to fetch a great deal. You have to take risks and hope for a big reward.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#102 » by [e] » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:47 am

DayofMourning wrote:
[e] wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:If I was getting a player out of the deal and I was Philly, then I think Bennett would be a good return for Thad. AB has been getting a lot of flack, and deservedly so, but he does have some translatable skills to tap into. I also think he has a better personality than Waiters, which accounts for a lot.

Perfect fit for Philly, the guy sucks - perfect fit for a tanking team.

That's a straight up terrible return for Thad. One guy is a net positive asset (Thad) and the other is a negative (Bennett)


Its popular opinion to just dump on Bennett after one season. I happen to think that is too quick to analyze a prospect, especially one drafted first overall (no matter the talent of the draft). Thad isn't a long term solution for the Sixers when it all boils down. He isn't going to fetch a great deal. You have to take risks and hope for a big reward.


He can definitely improve - in fact if he doesn't improve he shouldn't even be in the league. An abysmal 43% TS, 38% eFG, a 7 PER and negative win shares. Thad is actually a very solid NBA player - you don't take a guy like Bennett for him. Maybe if you get a pick too. What kind of reward do you think Bennett can provide?
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#103 » by DayofMourning » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:54 am

[e] wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:
[e] wrote:Perfect fit for Philly, the guy sucks - perfect fit for a tanking team.

That's a straight up terrible return for Thad. One guy is a net positive asset (Thad) and the other is a negative (Bennett)


Its popular opinion to just dump on Bennett after one season. I happen to think that is too quick to analyze a prospect, especially one drafted first overall (no matter the talent of the draft). Thad isn't a long term solution for the Sixers when it all boils down. He isn't going to fetch a great deal. You have to take risks and hope for a big reward.


He can definitely improve - in fact if he doesn't improve he shouldn't even be in the league. An abysmal 43% TS, 38% eFG, a 7 PER and negative win shares. Thad is actually a very solid NBA player - you don't take a guy like Bennett for him. Maybe if you get a pick too. What kind of reward do you think Bennett can provide?


Except this league is always about potential. Bennett still has that allure to him (its only been one season no matter how long it may seem) and he is an attractive piece because of that. A team like the Sixers could look at him as a good fit next to two post men in Embiid and Noel. He certainly has the skill set for that. Whether he capitalizes on his opportunity is another thing altogether. I hope he does. He has shown (pre NBA) that he is a talented player, and it would be nice to see him fulfill that potential.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#104 » by tundraknight » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:10 am

MoneyTalks41890 wrote:I think it's something like:

Young, Wiggins, Mem 1st to Minny

Bennett, Barea, 2nd to Philly

Love, Dieng to Cleveland


Most Wolves fans say they refuse to involve Dieng in the trade.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#105 » by og15 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:16 am

If it was to happen, I wonder it Young stays with them or if he opts out ? Words was that he was looking to opt out if he remained in Philly. Is it different for him in Minnesota?
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#106 » by whocurrz » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:00 am

improper wrote:
whocurrz wrote:Again why was Cleveland planning on moving Waiters to the bench and starting Wiggins as SG? A ball dominant guard who can't space the floor is a terrible fit in the starting lineup. He fits much better as a 6th man. You don't have a clue if you can't see this. Apparently Blatt has so there's hope for Cleveland fans.


Can't space the floor? Have you ever seen Waiters play and/or do you know anything about him? He shot nearly 41% on spot up three point attempts last year, and 37% overall on three with 3.6 attempts per game, both of which are very good percentages. He also has great form on his jumper, something which Zach Lowe commented on late last year in one of his "Things I Like and Don't Like" segments.

I get that there are people who don't like or don't care for Waiters, and that's fine. However, it's annoying when they make up or propagate total falsehoods in order to make their points. If you're too lazy to include evidence with your post, maybe you shouldn't post it, eh?


36% from 3 is not really anything to write home about as far as spacing the floor goes, it's about average for perimeter players. He "can" space the floor but I wouldn't call him a real floor spacer. 40% or better are guys who the defense actually can't cheat away from. And although 41% is a good number I'd need to see the sample size to see how significant that is. Especially when you're weighing him as an option to fill that role vs guys like Ray Allen and Kevin Martin which is what these posts have been about.

I've posted stats and examples regarding Waiters and this argument and the people who hated my argument are the ones who haven't used anything to really back up their claims and just called me ignorant for suggesting Allen or Martin would probably start over him. If you're not gonna read into the whole argument maybe you shouldn't stick your nose in it and try to question others credibility.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#107 » by improper » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:08 am

whocurrz wrote:36% from 3 is not really anything to write home about as far as spacing the floor goes, it's about average for perimeter players. 40% or better are guys who the defense actually can't cheat away from. And although 41% is a good number I'd need to see the sample size to see how significant that is. Especially when you're weighing him as an option to fill that role vs guys like Ray Allen and Kevin Martin which is what these posts have been about.

I've posted stats and examples regarding Waiters and this argument and the people who hated my argument are the ones who haven't used anything to really back up their claims and just called me ignorant for suggesting Allen or Martin would probably start over him. If you're not gonna read into the whole argument maybe you shouldn't stick your nose in it and try to question others credibility.


It was 37%, which is above league average.

And that is 41% spotting up for an entire season. I'm not sure how much more of a sample size you want. Waiters' three point percentage his rookie year was lowered because he took a lot of bad shots off the dribble. He raised it about six percent overall his sophomore year because he stopped taking bad shots and starting shooting much more off the dribble. Anyone who actually watched him could see that.

And did you watch Allen last season? He's not starting over anyone at this point in his career. At this point in his career, assuming he comes back, he's a bench guy who can play 15 minutes a game and hit some threes. He provides almost no defense any more. He's certainly not getting more minutes than Waiters on a team trying to win next year. Waiters can just do so much more than Allen at this point in their respective careers.

And if you were the one who said that Waiters can't stretch the floor, well, your argument is terrible. He shot 41% from spotting up last year. That's a great percentage, and was the second best percentage (behind Spencer Hawes, who is no longer on the team) on the Cavs last year.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#108 » by The J Rocka » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:10 am

tundraknight wrote:
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:I think it's something like:

Young, Wiggins, Mem 1st to Minny

Bennett, Barea, 2nd to Philly

Love, Dieng to Cleveland


Most Wolves fans say they refuse to involve Dieng in the trade.

So does Flip Saunders.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#109 » by og15 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:45 am

whocurrz wrote:
improper wrote:
whocurrz wrote:Again why was Cleveland planning on moving Waiters to the bench and starting Wiggins as SG? A ball dominant guard who can't space the floor is a terrible fit in the starting lineup. He fits much better as a 6th man. You don't have a clue if you can't see this. Apparently Blatt has so there's hope for Cleveland fans.


Can't space the floor? Have you ever seen Waiters play and/or do you know anything about him? He shot nearly 41% on spot up three point attempts last year, and 37% overall on three with 3.6 attempts per game, both of which are very good percentages. He also has great form on his jumper, something which Zach Lowe commented on late last year in one of his "Things I Like and Don't Like" segments.

I get that there are people who don't like or don't care for Waiters, and that's fine. However, it's annoying when they make up or propagate total falsehoods in order to make their points. If you're too lazy to include evidence with your post, maybe you shouldn't post it, eh?


36% from 3 is not really anything to write home about as far as spacing the floor goes, it's about average for perimeter players. He "can" space the floor but I wouldn't call him a real floor spacer. 40% or better are guys who the defense actually can't cheat away from. And although 41% is a good number I'd need to see the sample size to see how significant that is. Especially when you're weighing him as an option to fill that role vs guys like Ray Allen and Kevin Martin which is what these posts have been about.

I've posted stats and examples regarding Waiters and this argument and the people who hated my argument are the ones who haven't used anything to really back up their claims and just called me ignorant for suggesting Allen or Martin would probably start over him. If you're not gonna read into the whole argument maybe you shouldn't stick your nose in it and try to question others credibility.

36.8% from 3PT on 3.6 FGA/G is above average. The bigger issue with him is finishing at the rim. Most of the time people don't notice things like that with guys like Waiters because they just assume he must be fine at it.

Waiters shot 52.5% FG at the rim, 53.8% FG at the rim as a rookie. Eric Gordon shot 58.3% FG at the rim last season, 58.9% FG at the rim as a rookie, and 66.3% FG at the rim his best season as a Clipper. So that gives you a comparison of what similar guys who are elite finishers do at the rim. Waiters is BAD at the rim for the type of player he is, that is a guy taking 31% of his FG attempts at the rim as a guard, similar to Eric Gordon, so a slasher who can shoot also.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#110 » by baubo » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:18 am

DayofMourning wrote:Except this league is always about potential. Bennett still has that allure to him (its only been one season no matter how long it may seem) and he is an attractive piece because of that.


Bennett's potential dropped after that craptastic rookie year. Thomas Robinson went from #5 pick to being traded for Patrick Patterson to being traded for a couple of 2nd round picks. Players value change quickly when they can't live up to their potential.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#111 » by Takingbaconback » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:24 am

baubo wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:Except this league is always about potential. Bennett still has that allure to him (its only been one season no matter how long it may seem) and he is an attractive piece because of that.


Bennett's potential dropped after that craptastic rookie year. Thomas Robinson went from #5 pick to being traded for Patrick Patterson to being traded for a couple of 2nd round picks. Players value change quickly when they can't live up to their potential.


Yup it doesn't matter where a player is drafted. After one season, value can plummet like Bennett's or value can rise astronomically like Giannis'. Drafted 15th overall last year and he's nearly untouchable.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#112 » by KKell2507 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:00 am

What if the Sixers offered up young and their own first round pick and got Wiggins out of it?

Minnesota gets: Thad Young, Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, Sixers 2015 1st(protected 15-30 because of owing Boston via Miami in Arnett Moultrie deal)
Cleveland gets: Kevin Love
Philadelphia gets: Andrew Wiggins and any or all of TWolves unwanted salary(they have the space for any or all of Kevin Martin, JJ Barea, Mbah a Moute)

Minnesota gets two good prospects, a good and still young veteran, and a lottery pick in next year's draft (which would make two lottery picks next year when you factor in their own pick) plus shed as much as $11 mil if they so choose in immediate payroll.
Cleveland gets their man without having to give up any of those future picks.
Philadelphia gets their star wing prospect to add to MCW, Noel, and Embiid and adds payroll when they have to do it anyway to reach the salary floor, but lose a valuable pick in next year's draft and the only veteran on their team.

Just an outside the box thought.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#113 » by tundraknight » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:14 am

Sixers need some Love. Might as well cut the Cavs out and make it a two team trade.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#114 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:25 am

tundraknight wrote:Sixers need some Love. Might as well cut the Cavs out and make it a two team trade.


By all means.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#115 » by whocurrz » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:42 am

improper wrote:
whocurrz wrote:36% from 3 is not really anything to write home about as far as spacing the floor goes, it's about average for perimeter players. 40% or better are guys who the defense actually can't cheat away from. And although 41% is a good number I'd need to see the sample size to see how significant that is. Especially when you're weighing him as an option to fill that role vs guys like Ray Allen and Kevin Martin which is what these posts have been about.

I've posted stats and examples regarding Waiters and this argument and the people who hated my argument are the ones who haven't used anything to really back up their claims and just called me ignorant for suggesting Allen or Martin would probably start over him. If you're not gonna read into the whole argument maybe you shouldn't stick your nose in it and try to question others credibility.


It was 37%, which is above league average.

And that is 41% spotting up for an entire season. I'm not sure how much more of a sample size you want. Waiters' three point percentage his rookie year was lowered because he took a lot of bad shots off the dribble. He raised it about six percent overall his sophomore year because he stopped taking bad shots and starting shooting much more off the dribble. Anyone who actually watched him could see that.

And did you watch Allen last season? He's not starting over anyone at this point in his career. At this point in his career, assuming he comes back, he's a bench guy who can play 15 minutes a game and hit some threes. He provides almost no defense any more. He's certainly not getting more minutes than Waiters on a team trying to win next year. Waiters can just do so much more than Allen at this point in their respective careers.

And if you were the one who said that Waiters can't stretch the floor, well, your argument is terrible. He shot 41% from spotting up last year. That's a great percentage, and was the second best percentage (behind Spencer Hawes, who is no longer on the team) on the Cavs last year.


Sample size I'm referring to is total number of spot up attempts. He could have shot 41% but if it was 1 attempt per 3 games that's not very significant. Also if all of his catch and shoot 3s are wide open that's different than a guy like Klay Thompson or Ray Allen who shoot with a hand in their face and have to get the shot off in less than a second because their man can't cheat off of them. If the guy doesn't have the effect where his defender cannot leave him open then it's not near the same effect as a true stretch shooter does. That's the point of playing a guy like Martin or Allen significant minutes alongside Lebron. I never said Ray Allen would play 35 minutes but starting units allow everyone to get their rhythm and if Ray Allen being out there allows the other guys to get to the hoop better to start the game then he should start. I said he is a ball dominant scorer who isn't great at playing off ball or shooting from outside.

And he shot just below 37% which is about league average for guards and perimeter players like I said. NBA players it's above average but when talking specifically about shooters it's nothing amazing. It's solid but not a guy you put out there to space the floor unless the other options are worse, which in this debate doesn't include Waiters when talking about guys like Allen and Martin who are elite in this facet.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#116 » by Saltine » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:44 am

KKell2507 wrote:What if the Sixers offered up young and their own first round pick and got Wiggins out of it?

Minnesota gets: Thad Young, Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, Sixers 2015 1st(protected 15-30 because of owing Boston via Miami in Arnett Moultrie deal)
Cleveland gets: Kevin Love
Philadelphia gets: Andrew Wiggins and any or all of TWolves unwanted salary(they have the space for any or all of Kevin Martin, JJ Barea, Mbah a Moute)

Minnesota gets two good prospects, a good and still young veteran, and a lottery pick in next year's draft (which would make two lottery picks next year when you factor in their own pick) plus shed as much as $11 mil if they so choose in immediate payroll.
Cleveland gets their man without having to give up any of those future picks.
Philadelphia gets their star wing prospect to add to MCW, Noel, and Embiid and adds payroll when they have to do it anyway to reach the salary floor, but lose a valuable pick in next year's draft and the only veteran on their team.

Just an outside the box thought.


Minnesota wants Wiggins, and maybe Young, though we really want Taj Gibson at PF.
We don't want Waiters or Bennett, at all, they are trade filler.
That would be no deal ;)
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#117 » by wildvikeswolves » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:54 am

Cleveland: Love
Minnesota: Wiggins, Thad, Bennett
Philadelphia: Barea, 1st round pick from Cavs (heat or Memphis)

Insert salary filler from Cavs if needed. Everyone's happy/alright. Philly can probly take Bennett if they want

Rubio/Williams
Martin/Lavine/Shabazz
Wiggins/Brewer/Shabazz
Thad/Bennett
Pek/Dieng
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#118 » by DayofMourning » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:36 am

KKell2507 wrote:What if the Sixers offered up young and their own first round pick and got Wiggins out of it?

Minnesota gets: Thad Young, Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, Sixers 2015 1st(protected 15-30 because of owing Boston via Miami in Arnett Moultrie deal)
Cleveland gets: Kevin Love
Philadelphia gets: Andrew Wiggins and any or all of TWolves unwanted salary(they have the space for any or all of Kevin Martin, JJ Barea, Mbah a Moute)

Minnesota gets two good prospects, a good and still young veteran, and a lottery pick in next year's draft (which would make two lottery picks next year when you factor in their own pick) plus shed as much as $11 mil if they so choose in immediate payroll.
Cleveland gets their man without having to give up any of those future picks.
Philadelphia gets their star wing prospect to add to MCW, Noel, and Embiid and adds payroll when they have to do it anyway to reach the salary floor, but lose a valuable pick in next year's draft and the only veteran on their team.

Just an outside the box thought.


I guess it depends on how much you value Wiggins. If you think he is going to turn into McGrady, then you do that trade if you're Philly. However, I think next year's prospects are equally as good, especially Towns. In that case, I'd keep the pick and trade Thad for a different package.
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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#119 » by Bigmagicfan82 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:09 am

Why does it seem to like every deal suggest upon on in this thread Philly gets shafted? Philly doesn't have to trade Young. They aren't just going to take the junk that nobody wants for him.

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Re: Stein: Minnesota interested in Thad Young 

Post#120 » by DayofMourning » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:41 am

Bigmagicfan82 wrote:Why does it seem to like every deal suggest upon on in this thread Philly gets shafted? Philly doesn't have to trade Young. They aren't just going to take the junk that nobody wants for him.

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Some people are definitely missing that point. Some of these posts make it sound like Philly has to take whatever crap a team wants to unload. Philly doesn't have to do anything. They won't take bad contracts just for the sake of it, or poor talent either. I'd say they'd really like a potential lottery pick, and that's not outlandish considering the players being discussed. Philly realizes that with one more good draft, then they're done rebuilding through the draft. If they get one more pick in the lottery (2015) then they're set with prospects.
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