Wall vs. Kyrie for the last pg spot according to USA Today

[ManualRam]

Lets ask Trevor Ariza and Martell Webster how good a distributer he is. Wall is unstoppable when surrounded by good spot up shooters.

He also plays defense.

sure, but be honest. assess wall's half court game. to me he's still primarily a transition, 2ndary break playmaker. much more so than a good half court facilitator.

that is so not Wall anymore. Thats stuff in the past that people cant get past. When he came back from his injury the season before, he was a totally differnet PG. Any Wiz fan will tell you. Even Wiz fans admit that his halfcourt game was lacking but he's as good as any PG in the halfcourt right now not named Paul. He's great at running the O and setting up shots for others. He's not strictly a fastbreak guy anymore and hasnt been for a year and a half now

so he plays with pace now? pace coming off of ball screens to allow plays to develop. swing the ball just to swing it. shifting the defense with ball fakes. post entry and re-entry, etc. he does all that, yet he still dominates the ball more than anyone in the league.
i've seen him in play in the past yr and a half. i still see him struggle with decision making and shot selection this yr. i see the lack of continuity and ball movement on offense in the half court. i still see the extended, high middle pick n roll or wall taking the ball back out to near 30 feet so he can get a head of steam for his typical drive and kick. to me he still looks like a primarily drive and kick guy who added improved jump skip passes to his drive and kick arsenal.

[Illmatic12]

Lets ask Trevor Ariza and Martell Webster how good a distributer he is. Wall is unstoppable when surrounded by good spot up shooters.

He also plays defense.

sure, but be honest. assess wall's half court game. to me he's still primarily a transition, 2ndary break playmaker. much more so than a good half court facilitator.

Maybe about 2 years ago. Wall is fine in the half court now. He's improved his jumper and three point shooting to the point where teams can't sag the paint against him and he is deadly in the pick roll/pop. Pick and roll with Gortat with wings at the Corner 3 was bread and butter for the wizards last year.

Yep,

"Heading into Thursday’s game, Wall and Gortat had run almost 200 more pick-and-rolls than any other combination in the league. They’ve been a pretty solid combination, with the Wizards scoring 1.06 points per possession when the pair ran a pick-and-roll. "

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/02/2 ... -the-suns/

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7YRzjrwqg[/youtube]

^Most of those dunks were PnR plays that Wall created in the halfcourt. That's not to talk of corner threes, where JW assists the most in the league.

Wall touches the ball a lot, but when you watch him play it's pretty easy to see why he racks up a lot of assists. And he'd be even better next to a stretch 4 instead of Nene.


Of course, he's not perfect. And the main area where he needs to improve in the halfcourt is obvious -- shooting. Most of the great PnR point guards are great midrange shooters (Nash, CP3, etc). There have been great PGs who were able to get away with not being great shooters, but Wall at least needs to develop a 3-10ft floater so he can still make defenses pay for sagging off. Like younger Tony Parker, who eventually did become a midrange master but wasn't one off the bat.

[I beg to differ]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LFoYp5pFds[/youtube]

Can't wait to see how he looks. Take care of yourself, young man.

[mg]

I'd go with Kyrie over Wall due to the packed in FIBA zones.
As much as I love DRose, I would also take Kyrie (or Lillard) over him due to their outside shooting which is a must in the international game.

[lilswift01]

Are you guys serious when you say Lillard > Irving? Aside from Kyrie playing for the most dysfunctional team last year and Lillard being in a perfect situation in Portland, Irving is significantly more talented at just about everything. Better scorer, passer, overall shooter, finisher at the basket and elite handles on top of that.

[BayInferno]

what can Lillard do better then Wall or Kyrie besides shoot the 3? His D sucks, his FG% sucks, and he's an ok passer. Lillard get's to much praise with his horrible FG% he had for 2 years straight and his low assist numbers.

He averages just as many assists as Kyrie, shoots better, has about the same FG%, and a higher TS% than Kyrie's ever had.

[flash22]

sure, but be honest. assess wall's half court game. to me he's still primarily a transition, 2ndary break playmaker. much more so than a good half court facilitator.

that is so not Wall anymore. Thats stuff in the past that people cant get past. When he came back from his injury the season before, he was a totally differnet PG. Any Wiz fan will tell you. Even Wiz fans admit that his halfcourt game was lacking but he's as good as any PG in the halfcourt right now not named Paul. He's great at running the O and setting up shots for others. He's not strictly a fastbreak guy anymore and hasnt been for a year and a half now

so he plays with pace now? pace coming off of ball screens to allow plays to develop. swing the ball just to swing it. shifting the defense with ball fakes. post entry and re-entry, etc. he does all that, yet he still dominates the ball more than anyone in the league.
i've seen him in play in the past yr and a half. i still see him struggle with decision making and shot selection this yr. i see the lack of continuity and ball movement on offense in the half court. i still see the extended, high middle pick n roll or wall taking the ball back out to near 30 feet so he can get a head of steam for his typical drive and kick. to me he still looks like a primarily drive and kick guy who added improved jump skip passes to his drive and kick arsenal.

Chris Paul and Steve Nash are the only point guards in the league who can do all that consistently, he's not at there level yet, but he's sure as hell better then Irving.

[flash22]

I'd go with Kyrie over Wall due to the packed in FIBA zones.
As much as I love DRose, I would also take Kyrie (or Lillard) over him due to their outside shooting which is a must in the international game.

The team already has plenty of shooters on wings. this is a backup point guard role, I would rather have the player who WONT take shots away from other all-stars, plays hounding defense, and has played in big games before.

[Boardwalker]

I don't understand why Rose makes it just off of looking decent in scrimmages. He wasn't even good at the last worlds.

Because the people managing team USA know how good Rose is, unlike some people here on realgm who forget that the man won the league MVP award, for good reason.

As for Kyrie vs. Wall, that's a tough one. Kyrie has a better shot, which might give him the edge in international play, but Wall does everything else better.

[Threethrows]

what can Lillard do better then Wall or Kyrie besides shoot the 3? His D sucks, his FG% sucks, and he's an ok passer. Lillard get's to much praise with his horrible FG% he had for 2 years straight and his low assist numbers.

You've really got no idea what you are talking about. His FG% is low because he takes a lot of threes, but make no mistake he was a more efficient scorer last year than Kyrie has ever been, Wall has never been close to that sort of scoring efficiency.

His defense hasn't been good, but neither has Kyrie's. However Lillard has been making an effort for team USA to be a defender. He's gotten positive remarks for his aggressive full court defense this summer. It's something he can and will be able to do in his limited role on the team. This sort of thing gets noticed by coaches.

His assist numbers are due to the fact that Portland shares the ball quite a bit. He's got a lower usage than Irving while taking better care of the ball, with comparable volume assist numbers. Essentially this means they are pretty similar there, but it can definitely be argued that you would rather have the ball in Lillard's hands.

It gets old seeing people use nothing but volume numbers at their face value to try and analyze a player. It's an extremely flawed and rather pointless way of doing it.

People also need to realize this team isn't about who's best, it's about who fits and who's actively earning a spot. If the coaches like what they see in Damian Lillard that's why he is picked. Irving really doesn't have much of a case over Lillard, and Wall is a much different player with different strengths and weaknesses. Wall has a turnover problems, can't shoot nearly as well and needs the ball in his hands more to be effective, while on the plus side he's a great passer with good defense.

Bottom line is neither of those guys are offensively as good as Lillard, plain and simple. So if Damian comes out and is showing good defense in training camp that's why he's wanted in addition to his offense and ability to play the 2 guard.

[electroman6t]

what can Lillard do better then Wall or Kyrie besides shoot the 3? His D sucks, his FG% sucks, and he's an ok passer. Lillard get's to much praise with his horrible FG% he had for 2 years straight and his low assist numbers.

You've really got no idea what you are talking about. His FG% is low because he takes a lot of threes, but make no mistake he was a more efficient scorer last year than Kyrie has ever been, Wall has never been close to that sort of scoring efficiency.

His defense hasn't been good, but neither has Kyrie's. However Lillard has been making an effort for team USA to be a defender. He's gotten positive remarks for his aggressive full court defense this summer. It's something he can and will be able to do in his limited role on the team. This sort of thing gets noticed by coaches.

His assist numbers are due to the fact that Portland shares the ball quite a bit. He's got a lower usage than Irving while taking better care of the ball, with comparable volume assist numbers. Essentially this means they are pretty similar there, but it can definitely be argued that you would rather have the ball in Lillard's hands.

It gets old seeing people use nothing but volume numbers at their face value to try and analyze a player. It's an extremely flawed and rather pointless way of doing it.

People also need to realize this team isn't about who's best, it's about who fits and who's actively earning a spot. If the coaches like what they see in Damian Lillard that's why he is picked. Irving really doesn't have much of a case over Lillard, and Wall is a much different player with different strengths and weaknesses. Wall has a turnover problems, can't shoot nearly as well and needs the ball in his hands more to be effective, while on the plus side he's a great passer with good defense.

Bottom line is neither of those guys are offensively as good as Lillard, plain and simple. So if Damian comes out and is showing good defense in training camp that's why he's wanted in addition to his offense and ability to play the 2 guard.

I watched kyrie outplay Lillard in the scrimmage last year. Let's just see what happens tomorrow.

[Dr Aki]

go with wall

that way irving can still rep Australia

[Threethrows]

I watched kyrie outplay Lillard in the scrimmage last year. Let's just see what happens tomorrow.

OK? Not sure what your point is.

Any 2 of these 3 guys could make it and the team would be fine, but people should stop acting like it's an insult to pick Lillard over these 2. It's not, and Kyrie is definitely not in a class above Lillard. Wall is much harder to compare to the other 2, but based on play style and fit Lillard appeals to the coaches more than another "pure" PG.

[mrmsix6]

Irving really doesn't have much of a case over Lillard

You mean, except for the case that includes Irving being more talented and a better basketball player than Lillard? A case that goes beyond pure stats which can never be apples to apples because the two players were in completely different situations?

They are very similar as shooters and both weak defensively, but Kyrie has the edge in pure point ability, both ball-handling and passing. Team USA execs recognize Kyrie as a "pure point" and Lillard as a tweener. What does that tell you about their point guard abilities?

[Threethrows]

Irving really doesn't have much of a case over Lillard

You mean, except for the case that includes Irving being more talented and a better basketball player than Lillard? A case that goes beyond pure stats which can never be apples to apples because the two players were in completely different situations?

They are very similar as shooters and both weak defensively, but Kyrie has the edge in pure point ability, both ball-handling and passing. Team USA execs recognize Kyrie as a "pure point" and Lillard as a tweener. What does that tell you about their point guard abilities?

Analyzing a player requires both stats and the context which applies to them, or the "eye test" if you will. Irving has better handles, but it doesn't translate to being better at scoring or taking care of the ball. It's not as if Lillard's handling hurts his teams, he's a plus there and a good ball handler. They are comparable as passers and play makers. Damian is as much of a pure point as Irving when that's what he is tasked with doing. Is Jamal Crawford a point guard because of his handles? Don't mistake flash for practical and effective skill, they do not always coincide. You don't need to look cool doing something to be just as effective in the big picture. Irving has his advantages over Lillard, as does Lillard over him. They are close as players overall.

To me them saying Lillard is a "tweener" is more of a compliment to his ability to play off ball than a criticism of his point guard ability. That's what they are looking for, they don't want to load up on guys that have to play PG with the ball in their hands. They want flexible players that can play multiple positions. Colangelo himself said this.

What makes Kyrie the clearly better player outside of people's biased views for showmanship? There's a chance neither Irving or Lillard make it, I am just a little confused as to why people think Irving is so much better. I love being told to ignore stats though because it hurts someone's argument.

[abark]

The coaches understand his value, that's what matters. And he's looked more than "decent", have you not been reading the camp reports?

Huh, how could coaches understand his value when he's played 49 games since the 2010-11 season???

I don't think even Chicago coaches could understand his value or have any clue of what he might bring to the table next season so how in hell would USA coaches know off of a handful of practices?

Rose is healthy to the coaches right now, he's a leader on the team, he's been one of the best players on the team so far, and he's played for them in the world championship before. Why exactly would they care about his health the last two seasons when he's apparently healthy now?

Because the last time Rose came back, all you heard was how great he was looking in practice. Then the season started and he played terrible for 10 games till he got hurt again. Considering the FIBA season is only 9 games max, that could be a problem.

It takes time playing real games to come back from the injuries Rose has suffered. No matter how good he looks in practice, he's going into the tournament basically not having played competitive ball for 2 years.

[BodieB]

Huh, how could coaches understand his value when he's played 49 games since the 2010-11 season???

I don't think even Chicago coaches could understand his value or have any clue of what he might bring to the table next season so how in hell would USA coaches know off of a handful of practices?

Rose is healthy to the coaches right now, he's a leader on the team, he's been one of the best players on the team so far, and he's played for them in the world championship before. Why exactly would they care about his health the last two seasons when he's apparently healthy now?

Because the last time Rose came back, all you heard was how great he was looking in practice. Then the season started and he played terrible for 10 games till he got hurt again. Considering the FIBA season is only 9 games max, that could be a problem.

It takes time playing real games to come back from the injuries Rose has suffered. No matter how good he looks in practice, he's going into the tournament basically not having played competitive ball for 2 years.

The coaches aren't going to cut him over the possibility he may not play well in the tourney. That would be stupid. They want him on the team because of what they see in the practices, what's tangible. With the staff they have assembled (Who covet Rose maybe more than anyone on the team besides Durant), none of us are in position to really dispute their decisions. They know what they're doing.

[StojkoVrankovic]

Am I the only one that feels John Wall isn't as good of a facilitator as his assist numbers would have you believe?

Pretty much yes you should be the only one. The only better passers in the league are Nash (dead) , CP3 and MAYBE Rubio.

He's averaged 9 APG with terribly inefficient talent around him every year he's been in the league. For as much as people hype Beal the guy has been inefficient.

Wall would absolutely drown in dimes with the sort of talent Team USA would put around him.

RIP Rondo, never forget

[jc23]

I like Wall, he can really pressure the ball and is the better athlete. the only positive with kyrie is his shooting but KD, Curry and Thompson have that covered.

I

[jc23]

Huh, how could coaches understand his value when he's played 49 games since the 2010-11 season???

I don't think even Chicago coaches could understand his value or have any clue of what he might bring to the table next season so how in hell would USA coaches know off of a handful of practices?

Rose is healthy to the coaches right now, he's a leader on the team, he's been one of the best players on the team so far, and he's played for them in the world championship before. Why exactly would they care about his health the last two seasons when he's apparently healthy now?

Because the last time Rose came back, all you heard was how great he was looking in practice. Then the season started and he played terrible for 10 games till he got hurt again. Considering the FIBA season is only 9 games max, that could be a problem.

It takes time playing real games to come back from the injuries Rose has suffered. No matter how good he looks in practice, he's going into the tournament basically not having played competitive ball for 2 years.

I guess he looks so damn good that the coaches are willing to take a chance.

Definitely no charity stuff going on though, Spain is legit and Coach K is bringing the best players to help him win.