Proof the quality of NBA players is going down.

[NYKAL]

One could make the argument that the quality is actually increasing due to the circumstances you present.

Today's NBA, has stars but also has teams built to work together...

The main difference i see between the early 2000's and today's NBA is that today's NBA seemingly has a wider gap between the good teams and the bad teams (or championship contenders/pretenders versus tankers). This being the result of the perception that teams need three top stars versus two to achieve contender-status.

I think its due to there being at least 2 too many franchises in the NBA

[ocelot17]

Came in here expecting op's thread to be about harden.

Was not disappointed.

[Ballerhogger]

The level of Talent has gone down when you compare it to Shaq and Kobe.. Those are once in decade type of talent... Right now we have Lebron and KD as superstars.

[Fadeaway_Jumper]

During the early 2000's the Lakers had the best Center in the League, Shaq, and the best SG in the league in Kobe Bryant. The lakers went on to be the last team to 3peat as champions since Jordan & Pippen in Chicago. They were destroying championship level teams like the spurs, Kings, and Blazers

In todays NBA the Rockets have the best SG in regards to James Harden, and the Best Center with Dwight Howard. This team cannot even get out of the first round, losing embarrassingly in 6 six games after a hyped offseason.

Whats happening these days?

Your logic doesn't work. You can say that the rest of the league sucked, which is why Shaq and Kobe dominated..proving that the quality of NBA players was poor. Now the entire league has caught up to the best players, meaning it's proof that the quality of NBA players is going up.

What you're trying to say is that the best players aren't as good as they once were. The problem is that you're basing it on position. The SG's are the weakest it's ever been and the C's are full of mediocre to all-star level players, but no superstars. Meanwhile the PG position is as strong as it's ever been, especially in depth..it would probably wipe the floor with 2000 PG's and the SF position can challenge any era. The PF position is also pretty strong, but with only one superstar talent in Davis emerging. Shaq and Kobe would kind of be like Lebron and Anthony Davis in today's league.

Shaq was lucky enough to find his way out of ORL and match up with Kobe and Phil. And even with that, its was not smooth sailing mixing them together or keeping them together. Give Phil and the front office a ton of credit for getting them together and keeping it going as long as they were able to. If not, Shaq could have had more of a Boogie experience.

Hakeem was the best talent of that group in my book. He was just an elite talent and great mentally.

Ewings was a great talent but feel short up stairs when compared to Hakeem.

The last step to elite greatness has to do with the person, their mind, maturity, etc. And that last step is a big one. Still waiting for KD to take it. LeBron took it in MIA.

This is why I liked the WIZ adding Paul Pierce. Hopefully he can pass some of that onto Wall, Beal and Otto. If he can get them each to step up a level or two and they land and elite player when PP leaves, then they can have a good long run.

Shaq made the finals before he went to the Lakers and after he left the Lakers. Any team he was on was a contender, pretty sure SHAQ wasn't the lucky one here. I don't think it's that hard to build around him and if he's on a starless team, I doubt it would be hard to find players who'd want to play with him.

Copy and pasted from before

Also everyone saying the game shifted to the wing and we're in the golden era of point guards. Again just proves the league is in decline. How many times has it been proven that the point position is the least Likely to lead a team to the title. Chris Paul has been the best PG for how long but can't get outta the first round despite playing on a stacked team. Plus how many centers & forwards are on the top 10 all time vs guards?

[Volcano]

Copy and pasted from before

Also everyone saying the game shifted to the wing and we're in the golden era of point guards. Again just proves the league is in decline. How many times has it been proven that the point position is the least Likely to lead a team to the title. Chris Paul has been the best PG for how long but can't get outta the first round despite playing on a stacked team. Plus how many centers & forwards are on the top 10 all time vs guards?

The PG position is strong, but mostly in depth. That increases the talent level of the league, but strong depth doesn't mean the best PG's are better than the best SF's (Durant, Lebron) or PF's (Dirk in his championship year).

Let's take a look at post-Kobe, since him being the best SG in the league and winning a championship at the time disproves your theory (even then, Gasol should have been FMVP or co-FMVP for those titles at least). We have the Mavericks, Miami and Spurs winning titles. Mavs featured a HoF PF, Miami has one of the best SF's ever who played at the PF position but his style of play is like a PG and Spurs have a team featured around a post-prime, but still effective #1 PF ever where the finals MVP was an SF.

So clearly, the talent has shifted away from SG/C to PG/SF/PF. Even then, before that, you had a PF in Gasol who was equally as important as Kobe, a Boston team featuring KG with an SF winning FMVP, a Duncan anchored team with a PG winning the finals MVP.

In the "Shaq/Kobe" era, they were defeated in the finals by a team with Billups as the MVP. So what's the problem here. Seems like to me, the Shaq/Kobe era was weak as **** since a team featuring a borderline all-star PG with no one else even in the top 50 all-time list was able to beat them. And they were stacked with Malone and Payton too.

[Fadeaway_Jumper]

Copy and pasted from before

Also everyone saying the game shifted to the wing and we're in the golden era of point guards. Again just proves the league is in decline. How many times has it been proven that the point position is the least Likely to lead a team to the title. Chris Paul has been the best PG for how long but can't get outta the first round despite playing on a stacked team. Plus how many centers & forwards are on the top 10 all time vs guards?

The PG position is strong, but mostly in depth. That increases the talent level of the league, but strong depth doesn't mean the best PG's are better than the best SF's (Durant, Lebron) or PF's (Dirk in his championship year).

Let's take a look at post-Kobe, since him being the best SG in the league and winning a championship at the time disproves your theory (even then, Gasol should have been FMVP or co-FMVP for those titles at least). We have the Mavericks, Miami and Spurs winning titles. Mavs featured a HoF PF, Miami has one of the best SF's ever who played at the PF position but his style of play is like a PG and Spurs have a team featured around a post-prime, but still effective #1 PF ever where the finals MVP was an SF.

So clearly, the talent has shifted away from SG/C to PG/SF/PF. Even then, before that, you had a PF in Gasol who was equally as important as Kobe, a Boston team featuring KG with an SF winning FMVP, a Duncan anchored team with a PG winning the finals MVP.

In the "Shaq/Kobe" era, they were defeated in the finals by a team with Billups as the MVP. So what's the problem here. Seems like to me, the Shaq/Kobe era was weak as **** since a team featuring a borderline all-star PG with no one else even in the top 50 all-time list was able to beat them. And they were stacked with Malone and Payton too.

Yes the talent level has shifted away to different positions but the talent at the top is still much weaker. Lets look at the top players for all five positions in 2000s vs now.

1. Point guard position: the top point guard was iverson vs current chris paul. I'd take iverson. Chris Paul can't take over a game like AI, and AI never played with the weapons CP3 has now. Give AI this clippers team and he has a ring.

2. Shooting guard position: Kobe vs Harden. No contest

3. Small forward position: T-Mac vs Lebron. Lebron definately has the edge here

4. Powerforward positon: Duncan vs Kevin Love? lol

5. Center position. Shaq vs Howard. Howard himself would tell you he doesnt hold a candle to shaq.

So in the current NBA is weaker in every position except Small forward. Not a good look

Yes lets ignore the fact that before they lost to pistons the Lakers rattled off 3 championships in a row. The lakers were **** but they were able to dominate a prime Duncan and Dirk, 2 players that the former Best team in the league(Heat) couldn't even stop in their old age. Both players are nowhere what they used to be but are still tearing up this watered down league. What does that say about the Heat, who were supposed to be the next great dynasty of this era? 2000s Lakers would destroy any of the finals teams of the past couple year

[SF_Warriors]

The Phil/Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't an instant success team.

Eh? They won the championship their first 3 seasons consecutively.

No they didn't..
Kobe was a rookie thier first year in LA together.
If I'm not mistaken, they won the first chip in their fourth year together, or kobe's second year as a fulltime starter.
That said, kobe was only 21 when they won the first championship, still pretty impressive.

How do you as a Laker fan not know that?

[Yoshun]

Copy and pasted from before

Also everyone saying the game shifted to the wing and we're in the golden era of point guards. Again just proves the league is in decline. How many times has it been proven that the point position is the least Likely to lead a team to the title. Chris Paul has been the best PG for how long but can't get outta the first round despite playing on a stacked team. Plus how many centers & forwards are on the top 10 all time vs guards?

The PG position is strong, but mostly in depth. That increases the talent level of the league, but strong depth doesn't mean the best PG's are better than the best SF's (Durant, Lebron) or PF's (Dirk in his championship year).

Let's take a look at post-Kobe, since him being the best SG in the league and winning a championship at the time disproves your theory (even then, Gasol should have been FMVP or co-FMVP for those titles at least). We have the Mavericks, Miami and Spurs winning titles. Mavs featured a HoF PF, Miami has one of the best SF's ever who played at the PF position but his style of play is like a PG and Spurs have a team featured around a post-prime, but still effective #1 PF ever where the finals MVP was an SF.

So clearly, the talent has shifted away from SG/C to PG/SF/PF. Even then, before that, you had a PF in Gasol who was equally as important as Kobe, a Boston team featuring KG with an SF winning FMVP, a Duncan anchored team with a PG winning the finals MVP.

In the "Shaq/Kobe" era, they were defeated in the finals by a team with Billups as the MVP. So what's the problem here. Seems like to me, the Shaq/Kobe era was weak as **** since a team featuring a borderline all-star PG with no one else even in the top 50 all-time list was able to beat them. And they were stacked with Malone and Payton too.

Yes the talent level has shifted away to different positions but the talent at the top is still much weaker. Lets look at the top players for all five positions in 2000s vs now.

1. Point guard position: the top point guard was iverson vs current chris paul. I'd take iverson. Chris Paul can't take over a game like AI, and AI never played with the weapons CP3 has now. Give AI this clippers team and he has a ring.

2. Shooting guard position: Kobe vs Harden. No contest

3. Small forward position: T-Mac vs Lebron. Lebron definately has the edge here

4. Powerforward positon: Duncan vs Kevin Love? lol

5. Center position. Shaq vs Howard. Howard himself would tell you he doesnt hold a candle to shaq.

So in the current NBA is weaker in every position except Small forward. Not a good look

Yes lets ignore the fact that before they lost to pistons the Lakers rattled off 3 championships in a row. The lakers were **** but they were able to dominate a prime Duncan and Dirk, 2 players that the former Best team in the league(Heat) couldn't even stop in their old age. Both players are nowhere what they used to be but are still tearing up this watered down league. What does that say about the Heat, who were supposed to be the next great dynasty of this era? 2000s Lakers would destroy any of the finals teams of the past couple year

I agree with some of your points, however, I think there is a strong possibility the league is deeper then it has been in the past. That's not to say there weren't good role/bench players in the past, there were always guys like Horry etc.., but I think the league is deeper now. I think that's why the stars don't stand out as much. I actually think a guy like Lebron would have looked better 15-20 years ago than he does now. It's harder for any one or two players to dominate the league like in the past. Championship teams need to be good teams, and be deep across the board in order to win. Shaq and Kobe would be tough to stop, but could that bench stand up to the Spurs' bench of last year? Even with Shaq and Kobe, could that team stop Lebron. Wade, Bosh, and all of their role players like Miller, Ray Allen, etc..? I think those would actually be pretty good games.

[Slava]

The Phil/Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't an instant success team.

Eh? They won the championship their first 3 seasons consecutively.

No they didn't..
Kobe was a rookie thier first year in LA together.
If I'm not mistaken, they won the first chip in their fourth year together, or kobe's second year as a fulltime starter.
That said, kobe was only 21 when they won the first championship, still pretty impressive.

How do you as a Laker fan not know that?

Read properly, he said Phil/Kobe/Shaq not Kobe/Shaq.

[SF_Warriors]

Eh? They won the championship their first 3 seasons consecutively.

No they didn't..
Kobe was a rookie thier first year in LA together.
If I'm not mistaken, they won the first chip in their fourth year together, or kobe's second year as a fulltime starter.
That said, kobe was only 21 when they won the first championship, still pretty impressive.

How do you as a Laker fan not know that?

Read properly, he said Phil/Kobe/Shaq not Kobe/Shaq.

My mistake.
Maybe says more about HOU's coaching than anything.

[kodo]

Elite talent has always been the same throughout eras. This is about God given raw talent and a perfect storm of genes. It's going to be extremely rare in any decade. Lebron, MJ, Russell are all equally amazing talent-wise & physically.

But what I see in today's NBA is that the gap between the elite and the "pretty good" or "OK" in the NBA has closed significantly due to modern training, modern nutrition, modern scouting, modern coaching and offensive schemes.

The ultimate sign of the times is that the Spurs won without a single (current) superstar and the Finals MVP was a guy who didn't even make the All-Star team.

Nowadays the game has shifted away from the 1 on 1 battles of before, matchups don't dictate winners anymore. One of Miami's last games was against the TWolves. On matchups Miami wins almost everywhere, esp considering Chalmers scored 24 that game. But Twolves still won because Chase Budinger can drop 24 points on 80% shooting. And that kind of thing happens all the time these days, because coaches don't run 1 on 1 schemes anymore.

TLDR: The fact that Houston has the best players at two positions and isn't winning doesn't mean the league is watered down talent-wise. It means the modern game has evolved away from 1 on 1 battles as determining the winner.

[Star-Lord]

The Phil/Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't an instant success team.

Eh? They won the championship their first 3 seasons consecutively.

No they didn't..
Kobe was a rookie thier first year in LA together.
If I'm not mistaken, they won the first chip in their fourth year together, or kobe's second year as a fulltime starter.
That said, kobe was only 21 when they won the first championship, still pretty impressive.

How do you as a Laker fan not know that?

Phil didn't get there until the 99-00 season, which they won.

Oh, and Kobe started in 99, as well.

[choppermagic]

Do you even logic?

That would only prove that the relative quality of SG and C positions have gone down.

Agreed.

In fact I would go so far as to say the opposite, this may be indicating the league is now deeper. It is tougher to separate yourself from the opposition.

OP's reasoning is faulty, but I would say a peak 2000-Shaq and 21 year old Kobe with PJ as coach would still dominate the NBA today.

[Warspite]

Im not seeing an overall talent drop off but at the elite all NBA level the OP has a legit point. The top 10 current players look pretty weak vs the top 10 of any yr after 1964.

[Destructor]

The level of Talent has gone down when you compare it to Shaq and Kobe.. Those are once in decade type of talent... Right now we have Lebron and KD as superstars.

But they are comparable. In fact it goes Shaq, LeBron, Kobe, Durant so there is really very little difference. And Durant has the 'potential' to surpass Kobe and Lebron the same for Shaq, whereas Shaq is now retired and Kobe is only probably going to fall down the pecking order as Durant improves.

[nomansland]

Kobe and Shaq (especially) were not only two of the best players at their position at the time, they were two of the best players in the entire league at the time, and can be considered among the best players at their position of ALL time.

Comparing them to Howard and Harden is ridiculous. Those two might not even be the best players at their position in the NBA right now. They're certainly far from being good two-way players like Shaq and Kobe were.

[MiltownHawkeye]

During the early 2000's the Lakers had the best Center in the League, Shaq, and the best SG in the league in Kobe Bryant. The lakers went on to be the last team to 3peat as champions since Jordan & Pippen in Chicago. They were destroying championship level teams like the spurs, Kings, and Blazers

In todays NBA the Rockets have the best SG in regards to James Harden, and the Best Center with Dwight Howard. This team cannot even get out of the first round, losing embarrassingly in 6 six games after a hyped offseason.

Whats happening these days?

This is probably some of the worst logic I've ever seen on this board and that's saying a lot.

[Chuck Everett]

This league has serious depth. The post about the Spurs is spot off. The Western Conference alone is proof to the depth in this league. Quality players on a ton of teams, but the competition is just way too stiff. I mean Phoenix had an excellent year and it meant nothing in the grand scheme.

[StitchJones]

I don't think the quality of player has necessarily decreased. I think the rules have been so bent toward offense now that players with lesser skills and abilities are able to be offensive forces. The best players in the NBA today are not forced to truly develop their skills because offense and scoring comes so easy in this league. I don't think Jordan would have become Jordan had he not had teams like the Pistons and the Knicks force him to get stronger and more skilled.

[83SixersRocked]

Harden and Dwight are just role players.