The Antawn Jamison syndrome : Kevin Love

[SlowPaced]

He's making a transition. Cut the guy some slack.

Shaq also played with LeBron James and only averaged 12/6.7/1.5

Clearly worse than both Jamison and Love.

Holy hell what a straw man. Shaq WAS worse than Jamison and Love when he played in Cleveland. He was WAY past his prime.

I see why they call you SlowPaced

Hey look another one. I knew he was being sarcastic, I attacked the motivation behind his sarcasm. Stats are not a clear cut way of judging players' qualities but Shaq indeed was worse than both Jamison and Love. The guy came up with the sarcasm that suggested Shaq was actually better despite having worse stats, which he was not. Joke's on you.

[eagereyez]

Love's one of the league's worst rim protectors and help defenders. Bosh was actually pretty good on defense. This Cavs team would get destroyed by most West teams.

[Ballerhogger]

He's not good enough defensively to compete against Noah and pau

[CodyB_]

So now we are questioning this?

Love is a great player but the guy needs to be masked by several great defenders to negate his lack-of-D.

[og15]

I think people underestimate fit. Gay is a perfect example. He was put in an environment that wasn't going to maximize his talents in Toronto, around teammates he didn't have chemistry with, coaching that didn't understand his game or have him in his spots, and around other players that didn't really him in his wheel house. It didn't work out and people still crap on him for it.

Love was great in Minnesota and may just be in an environment that doesn't maximize his potential. I feel for him, because I know he was just driven by the desire to win going to Cleveland and probably couldn't have anticipated how tough it was going to be with other offensive talents when there is only one rock. Hopefully it ends well for him

We might still have to monitor if Rudy reverts back a little more to the mean, but if his foul draw rate has permanently increased, then that's great. I believe he will stay at this production level because Sacramento has positioned him closer to the rim more so than before and if that gets him ~2 more FTA/G, that's great. Remember from 07-08 to 10-11, a solid 4 seasons he averaged:

19.6 ppg (18.4 pts/36) / 5.9 rpg / 46.2% FG / 35.1% 3PT / .498 eFG% / .539 TS%
Shooting 60.8% at rim, 27.7% of FGA from 0-3 feet, 42.4% of FGA inside 10 feet
32.5% of FGM assisted
4.2 fta/36

So far with Sacramento:
20.4 ppg (21.1 pts/36) 5.7 rpg / 47.5% FG / 31.4% 3PT /
Shooting ~70% FG at rim, ~22-23% of FGA from 0-3 feet, ~47-48% of FGA inside 10 feet
29.1% of FGM assisted
5.9 fta/36

Rudy wasn't always the guy from his last years in Memphis and in Toronto where he was pretty inefficient and shooting a lot. His eFG% is essentially the same as his earlier days in Memphis, he's still scoring primarily from isolation, really the biggest difference on offense production wise is that he is drawing more FT's, and he has shot extremely well from the line. The difference in terms of play before the production itself comes from more post action which and more of his attempts inside 10 feet.

Part of people's issue with Rudy was his contract, he wasn't worth what he was making and using him as a first option. Now that he just signed a pretty reasonable extension, there will also be a different view of him.

[cdubbz]

Jamison was a beast in his prime...
Not the most defensive player, but damaging player offensively and a factor indeed.


thats all I'm gonna say...

I'm a Warrior fan and was a huge Jamison fan. back to back 51 point games against the Sonics and Lakers. In his prime he was a mismatch at the 3 and 4. Quick release, unorthodox flip shots, and he was sneaky in the paint. No defense, no dribbling, but he got his shots off with 1 or 2 dribbles. Warriors sucked when we had him. but he was pretty good on a Wizards playoff team.

[timdunkit]

This is a really interesting development.

It's scary how good the Cavs can be offensively. I mean people talk about everyone having a down year and there not being much chemistry but the Cavs still have an ORTG of 111.8 despite Love having a "bad" start.

It's clear though chemistry and continuity is still an issue. Despite being efficient, the Cavs still have the problem of too many mouths to feed on the perimeter.

It's an interesting situation for Lebron to be in. He is by far the best offensive player in the league but I'm wondering if he'd be willing to take a seat back and let Kyrie/Love flourish offensively. He's better then both guys offensively but they have very little positive defensive impact whereas Lebron can make a huge impact and focus on the defensive end (He'd still manage to score 25-26 points a game just because he is Lebron James).

This is all assuming that no trade is made. A PG like Conley would certainly be a better fit besides Lebron then Kyrie (not saying Memphis is going to trade him, just playing styles). The Cavs could and should be looking to make a trade for a legit C using TT/Waiters as bait.

[miltk]

After 6 years not playing playoffs, finally Love plays for a ''good'' team . And he is proving that he is not better than Antawn Jamison.

Jamison was great, with super stats in depleted Warriors teams, but then his stats never translated to good team performances.

To be honest, I think Jamison was a way better player than Love, his tenure in Washington was impressive.

And yes I know that Love can give you a lot of empty rebound, the kind of rebounds that if you dont get someone else on your team does.

one last thing about love's "empty rebounds" and your last sentence in particular. go here http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2008.html and compare the team's rebounding ranking pre-love, during love, and post-love,,,,,,and also years when love played more games than the years when he played fewer games. their rebound ranking fluctuates in sync with love in/out the lineup. when he was not playing, someone wasn't getting the rebounds you think they're supposed to get without klove.

[hands11]

10 games into the season.

There is only one ball

They have LeBron. He is going to get 18 or more shots a game.

Give it time. You cant tell much at all from that small sample size so early in the season.

I don't think anyone thought he would be shooting as much as his did in MIN.

[miltk]

10 games into the season.

There is only one ball

They have LeBron. He is going to get 18 or more shots a game.

Give it time. You can tell much at all from that small sample size so early in the season.

I don't think anyone thought he would be shooting as much as his did in MIN.

of course not, but i don't think anyone expected blatt to camp love out at the 3 and take away his rebounding/outlets either. love made minnie #6 ranked in boards

[og15]

After 6 years not playing playoffs, finally Love plays for a ''good'' team . And he is proving that he is not better than Antawn Jamison.

Jamison was great, with super stats in depleted Warriors teams, but then his stats never translated to good team performances.

To be honest, I think Jamison was a way better player than Love, his tenure in Washington was impressive.

And yes I know that Love can give you a lot of empty rebound, the kind of rebounds that if you dont get someone else on your team does.

I don't get the Jamison comparison. His stats on Washington were just as good and those teams won. He could never do much for defense, true. He averaged 21/9/2, 45/36 with Washington (excluding his last half season there). 45, 42, 41, 43 and 19 wins. The team was depleted that last season and Jamison wasn't going to carry a team, but probably not fair to say he didn't translate his stats to at least a decent team.

For love, it is 10 games in. He's currently shooting 51.9% from 0-3 feet while he's a career 59% shooter there and just came off a season shooting 66.9% there. Let's see what the story is later down the line

[floppymoose]

I am a Warriors fan and I watched Jamison in his prime. Jamison was not ever nearly the player Love is.

[Sleep]

Love has always put up good stats on a bad team. Inflated stats. They were always going to sink when he joined a team with other ball dominant players.

I don't think he was ever as good as some people made out, he's still a great player but he isn't top five or anything like that. He'll get better but as third option on the Cavs sharing the ball with two other guys who run the offense he isn't going to be considered the best player going around.

[hands11]

After 6 years not playing playoffs, finally Love plays for a ''good'' team . And he is proving that he is not better than Antawn Jamison.

Jamison was great, with super stats in depleted Warriors teams, but then his stats never translated to good team performances.

To be honest, I think Jamison was a way better player than Love, his tenure in Washington was impressive.

And yes I know that Love can give you a lot of empty rebound, the kind of rebounds that if you dont get someone else on your team does.

I don't get the Jamison comparison. His stats on Washington were just as good and those teams won. He could never do much for defense, true. He averaged 21/9/2, 45/36 with Washington (excluding his last half season there). 45, 42, 41, 43 and 19 wins. The team was depleted that last season and Jamison wasn't going to carry a team, but probably not fair to say he didn't translate his stats to at least a decent team.

For love, it is 10 games in. He's currently shooting 51.9% from 0-3 feet while he's a career 59% shooter there and just came off a season shooting 66.9% there. Let's see what the story is later down the line

Won what ? They didn't win that much.

And they never gave the ball to anyone else. No post play was a huge problem. It was all shots by AJ, Caron Butler and Gil. Gill driving was their only interior pressure. And they were a horrible defensive team. AJ was terrible defensively. So was Gilbert. He was also a terrible defender. Add in the coach was an offensive minded coach that focused nothing on defense and road those three players to 40 plus min averages during the season so they had nothing left for the playoff. If they were injured from over use.

AJ was an absolute turn style on D. We called him Oh Lay

DAL used him correctly and he won best 6th man that year. That how he should have been used thoughout his career. But one he got over paid, he was slotted as a starter. My rule is all starters have to be able to defender first. Thats if you want a title quality team. Great scorers can be less then great defenders, but they can't be horrible defenders. And if you have a poor defender, you have to have someone that can cover up for it. Easier to do that on the perimeter then in the post. AJ played PF and he defense usually gave up more pts then he score.

Plus/Minus for AJ much have been horrible. You would need an all defensive team around him to keep him on the floor and with Gil at PG, there was not way the Wizards where that.

HOU is a better version of what the Wizards were building back then. They have Howard at center and TA a 3 n D. Harden is very similar to what Gil was like.

[antistrat]

After 6 years not playing playoffs, finally Love plays for a ''good'' team . And he is proving that he is not better than Antawn Jamison.

Jamison was great, with super stats in depleted Warriors teams, but then his stats never translated to good team performances.

To be honest, I think Jamison was a way better player than Love, his tenure in Washington was impressive.

And yes I know that Love can give you a lot of empty rebound, the kind of rebounds that if you dont get someone else on your team does.

Jamison's top 3 PER: 21.2 - 20.6 - 20.3
Love's top 3 PER: 26.9 - 25.4 - 24.3

Advantage: Love

Jamison's top 3 WS: 9.2 - 9.0 - 8.5
Love's top 3 WS: 14.3 - 11.4 - 10.0

Advantage: Love

Jamison's top 3 VORP: 2.0 - 1.9 - 1.9
Love's top 3 VORP: 7.0 - 4.1 - 3.5

Advantage: Love

You may not like PER, WS or VORP, whatever - but these overall ratings were developed independently and they all say the same thing. So I think you're way off base if you think Antawn Jamison was anywhere near Kevin Love's level.

[MemphisX]

When it comes to Kevin Love, unlike any other player, your eyes and the team results mean nothing. Look at so and so stat...smh

[SmoothKobra]

When it comes to Kevin Love, unlike any other player, your eyes and the team results mean nothing. Look at so and so stat...smh

This 1000x. Kevin Love gets the most ridiculous excuses I've ever seen for his poor defense and for his lack of team success. It's always someone else's fault.

[hands11]

10 games into the season.

There is only one ball

They have LeBron. He is going to get 18 or more shots a game.

Give it time. You can tell much at all from that small sample size so early in the season.

I don't think anyone thought he would be shooting as much as his did in MIN.

of course not, but i don't think anyone expected blatt to camp love out at the 3 and take away his rebounding/outlets either. love made minnie #6 ranked in boards

Where did you think he would he. Sharing the post with Anderson Varejao. Taking more shots then LeBron ? More then Kyrie ?

CLE is averaging 105.0 pts a game. Missing scoring from Love isn't their problem. Its team defense.

Love on a bad team is one of your top players if not the top player. On a good team, he is the 3rd wheel just like he is in CLE. He isnt a 15M player. He is more like a 10M player.

[DowJones]

Stats are what you actually produce on the court. Wins and losses are great but if you don't play on a great team then you are stuck. Love isn't LeBron or Durant but outside of those 2, who else do you think can lead his team by himself to team success?

Even in his current state, Love is still putting up 17 and 10. Those numbers will certainly improve and he should be around where we all thought he would be....20 and 10 as the 2nd option on a title contending team.

[EscapoTHB]

Bosh was right.