LeBron: My Athleticism has Declined

[Joseph17]

LeBron is elite in enough areas to survive a little lost athleticism. But with KD and Russ getting better, Curry killing the game, and AD doing the same, I think it sets up an interesting conversation for best player over the next couple of years.

It's going to be AD hands down imo. I'd still give the edge to KD over him right now, but I'd be surprised if AD isn't the clear cut best player in the NBA next year unless he gets injured of course.

[RonSwanson]

Cherry picking highlights doesn't help your cause. If you watched him last night or on Friday, you would notice that he isn't "Vince Carter". That's absurd. And, yes, he can still come close to what you showed in the 4:38 mark. You aren't watching him play this year. At all. That's pretty obvious at this point.

[Joseph17]

Cherry picking highlights doesn't help your cause. If you watched him last night or on Friday, you would notice that he isn't "Vince Carter". That's absurd. And, yes, he can still come close to what you showed in the 4:38 mark. You aren't watching him play this year. At all. That's pretty obvious at this point.

I didn't say that he's Vince Carter. I said that he's NOT like Vince Carter because he has other skills to compensate for his decline in athleticism. I've watched him play plenty of times this year and he's still very athletic, but he's not showing off the freakish athleticism that he use to have. I can name a lot of players that are more athletic than him right now. When Lebron was at his peak I couldn't name any.

[RonSwanson]

Cherry picking highlights doesn't help your cause. If you watched him last night or on Friday, you would notice that he isn't "Vince Carter". That's absurd. And, yes, he can still come close to what you showed in the 4:38 mark. You aren't watching him play this year. At all. That's pretty obvious at this point.

I didn't say that he's Vince Carter. I said that he's NOT like Vince Carter because he has other skills to compensate for his decline in athleticism.

You compared his athletic decline to that of Vince Carter, which is just ridiculous. Certainly earlier in the season he was looking a little sluggish, which is partly attributed to him fighting back problems, having knee tendinitis and taking an entire summer off from basketball activities.

Also, you stated that he was in decline as a player and that his stats show that. You act as if it's clear as day when, in reality, he's going through the exact same "struggles" he did in his first 1-2 months in Miami. Adjusting to new teammates, a new coach and a new system will do that, even to the most talented players. He's not declining as a player. He's (smartly) altering his style of play to increase his longevity. That's why his assist average is the second highest in his career and rising.

Since November 22nd, he's shooting 52.6 percent from the floor (62.5 percent in his last three games). That's on top of his assist numbers, which have been increasing as well.

Showing highlights from five years ago doesn't really help. Everyone knows, including LeBron himself, that his athleticism is a step below those days, but to compare it to a Vince Carter-esque fall-off is a complete exaggeration. He had a break away dunk at about 5:15 mark of the 3rd quarter last night where his line of sight was about even with the rim.

But this isn't just about athleticism, it's about his game, which is, in no way, declining.

[Tacoma]

I don't think anyone has really denied the notion that Lebron has declined athletically. He's 30, it was inevitable. He remains very athletic, but he was never going to be the same as he was in his athletic prime.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if he just stopped taking PED this year.

And here I thought his athletic decline was due to something fundamental; like aging.

RealGM, where eyeballing PED use happens.

Then you also must believe that Roger Clemens and Alex Rodriguez weren't on PED either.

Lebron was very muscular and just last year there was talk about him being a 2-sport athlete as he had the stature and athleticism to be a Tight End or Outside Linebacker in football.

Here's another after/before pic:



He wasn't fat. The weight he lost was mostly reduced muscle mass. All from a 67-day diet? And now despite being lighter, he's slower too? Hmmm...?

Yes, age is a factor to be sure. But not difference like that after one summer.

[RonSwanson]

I'm seriously starting to wonder if he just stopped taking PED this year.

And here I thought his athletic decline was due to something fundamental; like aging.

RealGM, where eyeballing PED use happens.

Then you also must believe that Roger Clemens and Alex Rodriguez weren't on PED either.

Lebron was very muscular and just last year there was talk about him being a 2-sport athlete as he had the stature and athleticism to be a Tight End or Outside Linebacker in football.

Here's another after/before pic:



He wasn't fat. The weight he lost was mostly reduced muscle mass. All from a 67-day diet? And now despite being lighter, he's slower too? Hmmm...?

Yes, age is a factor to be sure. But not difference like that after one summer.

Again, he was slower earlier in the season due to back issues and knee tendinitis. Recently, and more specifically the last two games, his speed has been back to normal. The only thing he has lost a bit of is the explosion on his vertical. But his head was level with the rim on a dunk last night so it's not as if he has lost nearly as much as it's being made out.

[Arman_tanzarian]

his speed is better than 14 imo

[Dat2U]

It's the lack of muscle mass IMO that's had the biggest impact on his game. He had already lost a step or two the previous couple of years but he still was the best combo of size, speed & skill the league had. Now that margin of error as shrunk even more with the lack of power. It's clear in how he's battling underneath the basket nowadays (or better yet, how he's not as aggressive battling underneath the rim as he once was). I'm sure Love's presence may have something to do with that as well. He's also not getting to the rim as much and settling for the mid-range jumper. Maybe it's because he's struggling to finish with contact now, much more than in previous years, something where his lack of muscle mass really comes into play.

[RonSwanson]

It's the lack of muscle mass IMO that's had the biggest impact on his game. He had already lost a step or two the previous couple of years but he still was the best combo of size, speed & skill the league had. Now that margin of error as shrunk even more with the lack of power. It's clear in how he's battling underneath the basket nowadays (or better yet, how he's not as aggressive battling underneath the rim as he once was). I'm sure Love's presence may have something to do with that as well. He's also not getting to the rim as much and settling for the mid-range jumper. Maybe it's because he's struggling to finish with contact now, much more than in previous years, something where his lack of muscle mass really comes into play.

As of right now, 33.9 percent of his attempts are coming within three feet of the basket. In his first year in Miami, 28.4 of his attempts came within three feet of the basket. In his second year with the Heat, 32.9 percent of his attempts were within three feet. So, the idea that he is getting to the basket less than at any point in his career is false.

[Dat2U]

It's the lack of muscle mass IMO that's had the biggest impact on his game. He had already lost a step or two the previous couple of years but he still was the best combo of size, speed & skill the league had. Now that margin of error as shrunk even more with the lack of power. It's clear in how he's battling underneath the basket nowadays (or better yet, how he's not as aggressive battling underneath the rim as he once was). I'm sure Love's presence may have something to do with that as well. He's also not getting to the rim as much and settling for the mid-range jumper. Maybe it's because he's struggling to finish with contact now, much more than in previous years, something where his lack of muscle mass really comes into play.

As of right now, 33.9 percent of his attempts are coming within three feet of the basket. In his first year in Miami, 28.4 of his attempts came within three feet of the basket. In his second year with the Heat, 32.9 percent of his attempts were within three feet. So, the idea that he is getting to the basket less than at any point in his career is false.

Sorry I wasn't looking at his stats, going off what I've seen lately but I noticed you didn't reference the last two years and if my memory serves me correct, his last two years in Miami... he made a living in the paint. What he did in '10 or '11 would have little relevance to the conversation about his decline now.

[RonSwanson]

It's the lack of muscle mass IMO that's had the biggest impact on his game. He had already lost a step or two the previous couple of years but he still was the best combo of size, speed & skill the league had. Now that margin of error as shrunk even more with the lack of power. It's clear in how he's battling underneath the basket nowadays (or better yet, how he's not as aggressive battling underneath the rim as he once was). I'm sure Love's presence may have something to do with that as well. He's also not getting to the rim as much and settling for the mid-range jumper. Maybe it's because he's struggling to finish with contact now, much more than in previous years, something where his lack of muscle mass really comes into play.

As of right now, 33.9 percent of his attempts are coming within three feet of the basket. In his first year in Miami, 28.4 of his attempts came within three feet of the basket. In his second year with the Heat, 32.9 percent of his attempts were within three feet. So, the idea that he is getting to the basket less than at any point in his career is false.

Sorry I wasn't looking at his stats, going off what I've seen lately but I noticed you didn't reference the last two years and if my memory serves me correct, his last two years in Miami... he made a living in the paint. What he did in '10 or '11 would have little relevance to the conversation about his decline now.

His opportunities in the paint have steadily increased as the season has progressed. That's why I bring up those first two years in Miami, when he was getting acclimated to everyone around him and still playing along the perimeter more than the paint. I know some will disagree, but I'd rather have him along the perimeter, facilitating, than in the paint taking on opposing team's big men. As he continues to get used to his teammates and vice versa, his shooting and efficiency numbers will continue to increase.

I am not saying he didn't look off for the first few weeks of the season, because he did, but he has looked more and more like his younger self in the past few games and the numbers have reflected that.

[Beffiosa]

Who didn't expect a loss in explosiveness with such drastic weigh loss? See post #10
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1348820

Whoever accuse his weigh loss to being off PED need to stick to basketball. Coming off PEDs or even Hormones don't make you lose weight but it may reduce muscle definition and striation and make you appear to be softer. I never agree with athletes going on extreme low carb diet for an extended period of time.

Some of his explosiveness will increase as the season progresses

[M4P]

I'm referring you to how you missed my point in your post, and you keep repeating the same thing. Looking at head to body proportions will stop you from being confused by his closeness to the camera. By that measure, there is still a noticeable difference in Lebron that is beyond a simple workout. It looks much similar to a wrestler or fighter who has cut double-digit pounds in weight.

Being a former amateur wrestler and a member of an MMA forum where weight cutting, and weigh-ins are discussed all the time along with fighters "walking around weight" and the difference in appearance it makes, is very relevant to being able to recognize when someone has actually lost weight beyond a simple workout.

Lebron's weight loss, if it is due to a change in hormone treatments or another such enhancement, would indeed result in a lack of explosive strength and a change in aggression and endurance. HGH is discussed constantly on Sherdog also. I'm not proposing that it is the cause here, but it is potentially a cause.

Again, you're ignoring all my points and going off on a tangent. If you can't understand how ANGLES, LIGHTING, and PROXIMITY TO THE CAMERA can distort the perception of a person's size, which is EVIDENT FROM THE EXAMPLES YOU POSTED, then the discussion is lost.

- The PICTURES THAT YOU PROVIDED are no where near equal in setting. I made that clear from the examples I provided. I even gave you a vid demonstrating the effects of glycogen depletion and 'carbing up'.

- Being a high school wrestler and posting on Sherdog doesn't give you any credibility.

- Making speculations about PED use is just a lazy cop out for discussions. If you're going to assume Lebron is PEDs, then you have to assume everyone else is.

[infinite11285]

I'm seriously starting to wonder if he just stopped taking PED this year.

And here I thought his athletic decline was due to something fundamental; like aging.

RealGM, where eyeballing PED use happens.

Then you also must believe that Roger Clemens and Alex Rodriguez weren't on PED either.

Lebron was very muscular and just last year there was talk about him being a 2-sport athlete as he had the stature and athleticism to be a Tight End or Outside Linebacker in football.

Here's another after/before pic:



He wasn't fat. The weight he lost was mostly reduced muscle mass. All from a 67-day diet? And now despite being lighter, he's slower too? Hmmm...?

Yes, age is a factor to be sure. But not difference like that after one summer.

You should work for MLB to prevent PED use. I mean, your ability to compare two pictures is clearly credible enough to indict someone of using PEDs. Think of the millions of dollars you would save the MLB since they won't have to spend money even administering the tests! Your use of Google Images is beyond exemplary and should prove to be an incredible asset toward your profession of eyeballing players guilty of using performance enhancing drugs.

[SideshowBob]

Athleticism has definitely declined relative to his 08/09/10 athletic peak, but he's about the same as he was in Miami. I think the early season was a combination of there being an adjustment curve to the weight-loss and the back spasms. He's looked better as the season's progressed (the narrative is not fixed).

From the NOP game, Friday night.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmcgNBLQ_Hc[/youtube]

Making finishes quite comfortably with both hands, with contact, at awkward angles.

Play @2:25 - not sure I saw that kind of acceleration after a hesitation on the break with that kind of speed even last year, that one looked impressive.

Compare all of that to some of the finishes we saw back in October:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANaSlxly_XU[/youtube]

@1:51 - slow drive into an open lane through Dunleavy. No lift on the awkward lefty finish. Lack of upper body control is pretty evident here; not only is he not getting up vertically, he's having a hard time making a layup off the jump entirely.

@2:38 - fastbreak drive that results in him going away from the basket and shooting a wrong-footed shot off the glass. Not even an attempt to finish at the basket on the break!

@2:47 - tries to finish with contact, no lift, doesn't even get his hands above torso level. Again, this is a clear display of not only lack of lift but lack of upper body explosion as well.

@4:53 - nice attack on Gasol. No lift on the layup attempt though, so he just tosses it up with the momentum from the drive and gets a lucky bank.

@5:11 - lots of momentum from a 3/4 court drive, decent change of direction/hesitation around the defenders, but that was one hell of an awkward layup, granted there was contact. It looked like he barely got off the ground, if at all.

And that's not even including the numerous terrible misses... The difference between then and now is quite clearly night and day. He looks more agile, looks much quicker/explosive off the dribble, upper body strength/control is back and effective, and he's actually getting up off the ground and finishing with contact.

Looked great again last night.

[M4P]

He's clearly on the decline and his stats show that. People forget how good Lebron was at his peak. I know that these are only two games, but if you can't see the decline I don't know what to tell you. It's not even close imo.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfjLUybu6E[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLwfvkESE8[/youtube]

His stats also indicate that, over the past few weeks, he's getting back to form. The fact that you say "is not even close" shows you haven't really been paying any attention and simply falling into the narratives created by ESPN articles. His athleticism may have dipped ever so slightly, but his game has not. Go look at my post about that references his first month in Miami. He's dealing with the same thing now.

There's a significant decline in his athleticism. The guy used to be one of the fastest and most athletic players in the NBA. Watch these highlights and tell me if you think Lebron now can come even close to being that fast and athletic. There are plenty of highlights in this video that display his athleticism but look at the highlight at the 4:38 mark. He's simply not capable of doing that now.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa2qVkjss9Y[/youtube]
These are the kind of dunks he's doing now with the defense not even on him.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ReLzUwyNU[/youtube]
It's almost like comparing Vince Carter's athleticism from when he was on the Raptors to his athleticism from when he was on the Mavs. The difference is that unlike Carter, Lebron can get away with less athleticism because he's bigger, stronger, and more skilled than him.

What people in this thread are trying to tell you is that despite the loss of athleticism, Lebron is still as effective as he ever was. The loss of athleticism is not synonymous with the loss of effectiveness as a basketball player.

[Lionlifer]

Whoever accuse his weigh loss to being off PED need to stick to basketball. Coming off PEDs or even Hormones don't make you lose weight but it may reduce muscle definition and striation and make you appear to be softer.

I ran a few pro-hormone/design steroid cycles (all legal stuff, well the one was recently banned, but that's neither here nor there) and when I finished the cycle I'd lose between 5-10 lbs over the course of the next two months. Lots of other lifters had the same experience as I do too.

I'm not saying he lost all that weight cutting out PEDs, but it could have played a role, as I'm not the only one who has shrunk post cycle.

[Cycklops]

I'm referring you to how you missed my point in your post, and you keep repeating the same thing. Looking at head to body proportions will stop you from being confused by his closeness to the camera. By that measure, there is still a noticeable difference in Lebron that is beyond a simple workout. It looks much similar to a wrestler or fighter who has cut double-digit pounds in weight.

Being a former amateur wrestler and a member of an MMA forum where weight cutting, and weigh-ins are discussed all the time along with fighters "walking around weight" and the difference in appearance it makes, is very relevant to being able to recognize when someone has actually lost weight beyond a simple workout.

Lebron's weight loss, if it is due to a change in hormone treatments or another such enhancement, would indeed result in a lack of explosive strength and a change in aggression and endurance. HGH is discussed constantly on Sherdog also. I'm not proposing that it is the cause here, but it is potentially a cause.

Again, you're ignoring all my points and going off on a tangent. If you can't understand how ANGLES, LIGHTING, and PROXIMITY TO THE CAMERA can distort the perception of a person's size, which is EVIDENT FROM THE EXAMPLES YOU POSTED, then the discussion is lost.

All of those things you listed are minimized by comparing head size to body size in the pictures. You keep repeating the same thing despite this obvious reality so I assume there's no point in talking to you.

- The PICTURES THAT YOU PROVIDED are no where near equal in setting. I made that clear from the examples I provided. I even gave you a vid demonstrating the effects of glycogen depletion and 'carbing up'.

- Being a high school wrestler and posting on Sherdog doesn't give you any credibility.

- Making speculations about PED use is just a lazy cop out for discussions. If you're going to assume Lebron is PEDs, then you have to assume everyone else is.

Being a high school wrestler and having tons of discussions should indicate to you that I've seen what it looks like when someone drops weight due to a normal workout (which is what you claimed the 2014 picture was, and when someone drops 10+ pounds due to cutting muscle, water-weight, or fat, which is why *I* provided *you* a picture. Lebron's weight loss appears quite clearly to be the latter.

And assuming it's within the board rules (haven't seen any issues with it), we can discuss PED use all we want, particularly what the signs of it are and whether they are present in certain players.

[Joseph17]

His stats also indicate that, over the past few weeks, he's getting back to form. The fact that you say "is not even close" shows you haven't really been paying any attention and simply falling into the narratives created by ESPN articles. His athleticism may have dipped ever so slightly, but his game has not. Go look at my post about that references his first month in Miami. He's dealing with the same thing now.

There's a significant decline in his athleticism. The guy used to be one of the fastest and most athletic players in the NBA. Watch these highlights and tell me if you think Lebron now can come even close to being that fast and athletic. There are plenty of highlights in this video that display his athleticism but look at the highlight at the 4:38 mark. He's simply not capable of doing that now.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa2qVkjss9Y[/youtube]
These are the kind of dunks he's doing now with the defense not even on him.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ReLzUwyNU[/youtube]
It's almost like comparing Vince Carter's athleticism from when he was on the Raptors to his athleticism from when he was on the Mavs. The difference is that unlike Carter, Lebron can get away with less athleticism because he's bigger, stronger, and more skilled than him.

What people in this thread are trying to tell you is that despite the loss of athleticism, Lebron is still as effective as he ever was. The loss of athleticism is not synonymous with the loss of effectiveness as a basketball player.

I understand what they are saying and what I'm saying is that I disagree. The stats prove my point. Of course he's going to have some excellent games because he's still a top 3 player in the league. That being said, his overall effectiveness as a basketball player is on the decline IMO. It's like comparing Jordan in 98 to Jordan in 91. Of course Jordan was still an effective player in 98 and his game evolved, but he wasn't the same production wise as he was in 91 when he had superior athleticism.

[M4P]

I understand what they are saying and what I'm saying is that I disagree. The stats prove my point. Of course he's going to have some excellent games because he's still a top 3 player in the league. That being said, his overall effectiveness as a basketball player is on the decline IMO. It's like comparing Jordan in 98 to Jordan in 91. Of course Jordan was still an effective player in 98 and his game evolved, but he wasn't the same production wise as he was in 91 when he had superior athleticism.

Except the stats don't support your points. You're ignoring all other factors and attributing Lebron's statistical decline to his decline in athleticism, which is simply not true. Having to adjust to his new team and having to deal with both back and knee injuries hurt his production early on in the season. However now that he's healthy, he's gradually regaining form.