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perkinsfor3 wrote:Excluding Russell and Mudiay, who do you see as the best pg prospect in this draft? Any potential starters down the line? Jones, Payne strike me as backups. Rozier maybe?
cyclix wrote:Winslow 161
Porzingis 192
Stanley Johnson 206
Hezonja 236
cyclix wrote:Winslow 161
Porzingis 192
Stanley Johnson 206
Hezonja 236
Durango wrote:perkinsfor3 wrote:Excluding Russell and Mudiay, who do you see as the best pg prospect in this draft? Any potential starters down the line? Jones, Payne strike me as backups. Rozier maybe?
I was a big fan of Cam Payne but I see him thriving as more of a #1 option off the bench. Delon Wright could end up a lower-tier starter. Plays great D, runs the pick & roll well, and can lead an offense
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Knickstape1214 wrote:Question - did you watch Winslow in college? He didn't create for others, was absolutely horrible from mid range (and was ~average from three in college, where he got a good amount of wide open looks), and played his best basketball as a small ball 4. I don't see him becoming a 20 PPG scorer unless he develops a huge amount. Saying "he can definitely put up Jimmy Butler-type numbers, while playing DPOY level defense from the wing" is being a bit too optimistic, IMO.
Dirkbaka wrote:cyclix wrote:Winslow 161
Porzingis 192
Stanley Johnson 206
Hezonja 236
You can't be serious. Is that really a rebuttal?
Anywho. Guys I like.
Towns
Porz
SJ
Henzoja
WCS
Lyles
Guys I think will bust
Russell
Payne
Booker
Kamisky
Guys getting overhyped who will just be role players
Winslow
Not too sure
Okafor. HIs defense and rebounding are so blah. But his scoring is great.
cyclix wrote:Dirkbaka wrote:cyclix wrote:Winslow 161
Porzingis 192
Stanley Johnson 206
Hezonja 236
You can't be serious. Is that really a rebuttal?
Anywho. Guys I like.
Towns
Porz
SJ
Henzoja
WCS
Lyles
Guys I think will bust
Russell
Payne
Booker
Kamisky
Guys getting overhyped who will just be role players
Winslow
Not too sure
Okafor. HIs defense and rebounding are so blah. But his scoring is great.
Winslow has a great IQ and is athletic. That alone will make him more than a role player the NBA.
cyclix wrote:Knickstape1214 wrote:Question - did you watch Winslow in college? He didn't create for others, was absolutely horrible from mid range (and was ~average from three in college, where he got a good amount of wide open looks), and played his best basketball as a small ball 4. I don't see him becoming a 20 PPG scorer unless he develops a huge amount. Saying "he can definitely put up Jimmy Butler-type numbers, while playing DPOY level defense from the wing" is being a bit too optimistic, IMO.
Winslow was the best Duke player in the tourney and his play improved as the season progressed. He was nursing injuries earlier in the season that affected his some of his performances, and wasn't playing up to his potential for some time. In the tourney you saw increases statistically across the board.
Winslow will just his quickness to get by the opposition easily. He would get to the rim of the time 43% and convert 67% of the time at Duke. And, we all know his transition game is near elite. Part of the reason is because he is very good in putting english and curvature on the ball when he gets to the rim. Guys like Stanley Johnson and Kelly Oubre, when they drive they are regelated to floaters or short jumpers. They aren;t nearly as refined as Winslow in that department. Winslow was defending NBA-sized SFs in college, not really PFs. Stanley Johnson, with his superior body build, was struggling to get to rim, and convert.
Jumpshot is the only one here that is a legit argument. But shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA. The tools that Winslow is good at like IQ, athleticism, finishing at the rim, etc.. aren't nearly as teachable as shooting.
Not to mention Winslow has outperformed Stanley at the McDonalds game and the U18 games when they played on the same team, in the past.
He looked like less than a role player playing against a bunch of d-leaguers this summer.
cyclix wrote:Dirkbaka wrote:cyclix wrote:Winslow 161
Porzingis 192
Stanley Johnson 206
Hezonja 236
You can't be serious. Is that really a rebuttal?
Anywho. Guys I like.
Towns
Porz
SJ
Henzoja
WCS
Lyles
Guys I think will bust
Russell
Payne
Booker
Kamisky
Guys getting overhyped who will just be role players
Winslow
Not too sure
Okafor. HIs defense and rebounding are so blah. But his scoring is great.
Winslow has a great IQ and is athletic. That alone will make him more than a role player the NBA.
cyclix wrote:He looked like less than a role player playing against a bunch of d-leaguers this summer.
Are you seriously referencing the summer league?
Knickstape1214 wrote:cyclix wrote:Knickstape1214 wrote:Question - did you watch Winslow in college? He didn't create for others, was absolutely horrible from mid range (and was ~average from three in college, where he got a good amount of wide open looks), and played his best basketball as a small ball 4. I don't see him becoming a 20 PPG scorer unless he develops a huge amount. Saying "he can definitely put up Jimmy Butler-type numbers, while playing DPOY level defense from the wing" is being a bit too optimistic, IMO.
Winslow was the best Duke player in the tourney and his play improved as the season progressed. He was nursing injuries earlier in the season that affected his some of his performances, and wasn't playing up to his potential for some time. In the tourney you saw increases statistically across the board.
Winslow will just his quickness to get by the opposition easily. He would get to the rim of the time 43% and convert 67% of the time at Duke. And, we all know his transition game is near elite. Part of the reason is because he is very good in putting english and curvature on the ball when he gets to the rim. Guys like Stanley Johnson and Kelly Oubre, when they drive they are regelated to floaters or short jumpers. They aren;t nearly as refined as Winslow in that department. Winslow was defending NBA-sized SFs in college, not really PFs. Stanley Johnson, with his superior body build, was struggling to get to rim, and convert.
Jumpshot is the only one here that is a legit argument. But shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA. The tools that Winslow is good at like IQ, athleticism, finishing at the rim, etc.. aren't nearly as teachable as shooting.
Not to mention Winslow has outperformed Stanley at the McDonalds game and the U18 games when they played on the same team, in the past.
Actually, Tyus Jones was the best Duke player in the tournament. Winslow was great, no doubt, but Jones was the engine of the team. (Although, let's be real, that team was going nowhere without Okafor being the enter of attention on offense.) Right now, Winslow has no offensive game besides finishing at the rim and the corner three (where, again, he got WIDE open looks because he was playing the 4 and teams were focusing on Okafor in the paint). He was not creating for other players on his team and was also pretty turnover prone. Winslow has a great Eurostep, but he's all potential right now - and yeah, shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA, but it doesn't mean he'll become a good scorer. You're expecting a player who has shown very little offensive potential to become a 20 PPG scorer? Those are high expectations. Might wanna set the bar a little lower...
Also, the statistical increases you're talking about came when he was playing the 4 -- which is the same thing that happened all season long. His best basketball was played when he was playing PF next to Okafor. He has a lot of work to do.
I think he'll be a good role player (thinking along the lines of MKG), but not an all star. Judgment is still out though...nobody knows, it's all projection.
Knickstape1214 wrote:cyclix wrote:Knickstape1214 wrote:Question - did you watch Winslow in college? He didn't create for others, was absolutely horrible from mid range (and was ~average from three in college, where he got a good amount of wide open looks), and played his best basketball as a small ball 4. I don't see him becoming a 20 PPG scorer unless he develops a huge amount. Saying "he can definitely put up Jimmy Butler-type numbers, while playing DPOY level defense from the wing" is being a bit too optimistic, IMO.
Winslow was the best Duke player in the tourney and his play improved as the season progressed. He was nursing injuries earlier in the season that affected his some of his performances, and wasn't playing up to his potential for some time. In the tourney you saw increases statistically across the board.
Winslow will just his quickness to get by the opposition easily. He would get to the rim of the time 43% and convert 67% of the time at Duke. And, we all know his transition game is near elite. Part of the reason is because he is very good in putting english and curvature on the ball when he gets to the rim. Guys like Stanley Johnson and Kelly Oubre, when they drive they are regelated to floaters or short jumpers. They aren;t nearly as refined as Winslow in that department. Winslow was defending NBA-sized SFs in college, not really PFs. Stanley Johnson, with his superior body build, was struggling to get to rim, and convert.
Jumpshot is the only one here that is a legit argument. But shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA. The tools that Winslow is good at like IQ, athleticism, finishing at the rim, etc.. aren't nearly as teachable as shooting.
Not to mention Winslow has outperformed Stanley at the McDonalds game and the U18 games when they played on the same team, in the past.
Actually, Tyus Jones was the best Duke player in the tournament. Winslow was great, no doubt, but Jones was the engine of the team. (Although, let's be real, that team was going nowhere without Okafor being the enter of attention on offense.) Right now, Winslow has no offensive game besides finishing at the rim and the corner three (where, again, he got WIDE open looks because he was playing the 4 and teams were focusing on Okafor in the paint). He was not creating for other players on his team and was also pretty turnover prone. Winslow has a great Eurostep, but he's all potential right now - and yeah, shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA, but it doesn't mean he'll become a good scorer. You're expecting a player who has shown very little offensive potential to become a 20 PPG scorer? Those are high expectations. Might wanna set the bar a little lower...
Also, the statistical increases you're talking about came when he was playing the 4 -- which is the same thing that happened all season long. His best basketball was played when he was playing PF next to Okafor. He has a lot of work to do.
I think he'll be a good role player (thinking along the lines of MKG), but not an all star. Judgment is still out though...nobody knows, it's all projection.
cyclix wrote:Knickstape1214 wrote:cyclix wrote:Winslow was the best Duke player in the tourney and his play improved as the season progressed. He was nursing injuries earlier in the season that affected his some of his performances, and wasn't playing up to his potential for some time. In the tourney you saw increases statistically across the board.
Winslow will just his quickness to get by the opposition easily. He would get to the rim of the time 43% and convert 67% of the time at Duke. And, we all know his transition game is near elite. Part of the reason is because he is very good in putting english and curvature on the ball when he gets to the rim. Guys like Stanley Johnson and Kelly Oubre, when they drive they are regelated to floaters or short jumpers. They aren;t nearly as refined as Winslow in that department. Winslow was defending NBA-sized SFs in college, not really PFs. Stanley Johnson, with his superior body build, was struggling to get to rim, and convert.
Jumpshot is the only one here that is a legit argument. But shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA. The tools that Winslow is good at like IQ, athleticism, finishing at the rim, etc.. aren't nearly as teachable as shooting.
Not to mention Winslow has outperformed Stanley at the McDonalds game and the U18 games when they played on the same team, in the past.
Actually, Tyus Jones was the best Duke player in the tournament. Winslow was great, no doubt, but Jones was the engine of the team. (Although, let's be real, that team was going nowhere without Okafor being the enter of attention on offense.) Right now, Winslow has no offensive game besides finishing at the rim and the corner three (where, again, he got WIDE open looks because he was playing the 4 and teams were focusing on Okafor in the paint). He was not creating for other players on his team and was also pretty turnover prone. Winslow has a great Eurostep, but he's all potential right now - and yeah, shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA, but it doesn't mean he'll become a good scorer. You're expecting a player who has shown very little offensive potential to become a 20 PPG scorer? Those are high expectations. Might wanna set the bar a little lower...
Also, the statistical increases you're talking about came when he was playing the 4 -- which is the same thing that happened all season long. His best basketball was played when he was playing PF next to Okafor. He has a lot of work to do.
I think he'll be a good role player (thinking along the lines of MKG), but not an all star. Judgment is still out though...nobody knows, it's all projection.
Tyus was MVP of the championship game, but if you combine all 6 games in the tourney, Winslow was the most impactful and best player in the tourney.
I think Winslow has a very underrated post game as well. And he can run the offense as a defacto PG when the PG is resting. He can drive, but he is ambidextrous around the basket as well. Even though he's a natural lefty, he's been seen plenty of times using his off hand to finish. I don't think he will be a sniper like Wade, but offensively he will be at least decent as I can see him getting to the 20 PTS/g at his peak IMO.
His great defense will allow him more PT, like Deng when he was at Chiacago and Jimmy. I can see Winslow leading the league in MP one day, and if that's the case, then 20 PTS/g isn't out the question 5 years from now.
cyclix wrote:Rondae Hollis-Jefferson is like Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, not Winslow.
Dirkbaka wrote:Knickstape1214 wrote:cyclix wrote:Winslow was the best Duke player in the tourney and his play improved as the season progressed. He was nursing injuries earlier in the season that affected his some of his performances, and wasn't playing up to his potential for some time. In the tourney you saw increases statistically across the board.
Winslow will just his quickness to get by the opposition easily. He would get to the rim of the time 43% and convert 67% of the time at Duke. And, we all know his transition game is near elite. Part of the reason is because he is very good in putting english and curvature on the ball when he gets to the rim. Guys like Stanley Johnson and Kelly Oubre, when they drive they are regelated to floaters or short jumpers. They aren;t nearly as refined as Winslow in that department. Winslow was defending NBA-sized SFs in college, not really PFs. Stanley Johnson, with his superior body build, was struggling to get to rim, and convert.
Jumpshot is the only one here that is a legit argument. But shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA. The tools that Winslow is good at like IQ, athleticism, finishing at the rim, etc.. aren't nearly as teachable as shooting.
Not to mention Winslow has outperformed Stanley at the McDonalds game and the U18 games when they played on the same team, in the past.
Actually, Tyus Jones was the best Duke player in the tournament. Winslow was great, no doubt, but Jones was the engine of the team. (Although, let's be real, that team was going nowhere without Okafor being the enter of attention on offense.) Right now, Winslow has no offensive game besides finishing at the rim and the corner three (where, again, he got WIDE open looks because he was playing the 4 and teams were focusing on Okafor in the paint). He was not creating for other players on his team and was also pretty turnover prone. Winslow has a great Eurostep, but he's all potential right now - and yeah, shooting is the most teachable tool in the NBA, but it doesn't mean he'll become a good scorer. You're expecting a player who has shown very little offensive potential to become a 20 PPG scorer? Those are high expectations. Might wanna set the bar a little lower...
Also, the statistical increases you're talking about came when he was playing the 4 -- which is the same thing that happened all season long. His best basketball was played when he was playing PF next to Okafor. He has a lot of work to do.
I think he'll be a good role player (thinking along the lines of MKG), but not an all star. Judgment is still out though...nobody knows, it's all projection.
To be fair. Tyus Jones sucks.
Dirkbaka wrote:cyclix wrote:He looked like less than a role player playing against a bunch of d-leaguers this summer.
Are you seriously referencing the summer league?
Are you seriously referencing hs games (mcdonalds game, etc?)
Knickstape1214 wrote:The bold is debatable. Winslow's post game was based off of purely overpowering players. There was no advanced footwork or moves.
He's going to have to be better than "decent," as you put it, to hit 20 PPG. Unless you just want volume, of course. We'll have to agree to disagree, because right now I don't see it. At all. He's going to make his mark on defense and will be a high level role player, IMO.
cyclix wrote:Knickstape1214 wrote:The bold is debatable. Winslow's post game was based off of purely overpowering players. There was no advanced footwork or moves.
He's going to have to be better than "decent," as you put it, to hit 20 PPG. Unless you just want volume, of course. We'll have to agree to disagree, because right now I don't see it. At all. He's going to make his mark on defense and will be a high level role player, IMO.
I've seen Winslow use advanced footwork in the post and can easily use a clip to reference that.
I consider Jimmy Butler a decent scorer, but he isn't someone you rely on to carry your offense as the primary guy.
Knickstape1214 wrote:I'll wait for a few clips then. I watched a huge chunk of their games and I don't recall him using "advanced footwork in the post."
Jimmy Butler averaged 20 PPG with a .583 TS% and was hitting shots from all over the court at good percentages. That's more than "decent." He also basically carried the Bulls' offense the entire season...
