How many years has Doc set the Clippers back?

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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#81 » by og15 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:28 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:That's the thing: I was against ever giving him the money in the first place. I was hoping we'd let him walk because I knew he'd never be worth it. Unfortunately, this franchise is so married to a team that's never getting past the second round of the playoffs that they begged him to come back in pathetic fashion.

The team had little choice though, it was DJ or some minimum contract big man like the still recovering from injury McGee. Since there was no sign and trade happening, and his money was not free cap space that would not be freed up, there wasn't a plethora of options.

If they wanted to move him, then they would have had to be more proactive in doing so a bit earlier than free agency time, and that would have been a bit interesting to do.

There was a choice, though. We could have taken the short-term pain this season - this season is shaping up to be a huge disappointment anyway with DJ - and had cap flexibility going forward to balance out the roster or attract a star.

We now have three huge contracts invested in a team that is going nowhere. And as expected, DJ has had nowhere near a max-player impact. I'd honestly rather have Tyson Chandler this year. He's dominating the boards for the Suns so far this year, protecting the rim better than DJ, and is doing it at a cheaper price.
Not sure it is a good idea to waste a year of Blake's prime essentially hoping on something that might not be very realistic. If the team didn't want DJ they would have been better off making a preemptive trade during the season last season and getting some players they believe will help...of course that would have been a hard one to sell.

While the idea of waiting for this extra superstar seems somewhat logical, it might not really be that way, and you could just end being like all those teams with cap space and nothing to show for it after the off-season. Cap space is great and all, but cap space still has the limitations of players wanting to come to your team. The problem is that these supersstars the team would be trying to attract would have options, and as nice as Blake and CP are as a combo to join, they could find better options than a Clippers team with depth that's all over the place, no C, and a front office that has not been impressive.

The only real superstar that is coming up is Durant, we all know Lebron is not really going to be available, and maybe you are falling into the false hope that he would want to come to the Clippers, but he's already on a pretty good team, and the Clippers don't really make more sense for him than other options if we're being realistic. Of course everyone always sells their team as the best fit. It's similar to when Lebron was first a free agent, and some Clippers fans fell into the trap of the false hope that he would actually come to the team.

DJ is outproducing Chandler in everything but FT% which is expected. Rim protecting, I can't comment on, that's harder to address simply. I don't have much of an issue with Chandler, but he's also 33, and the Clippers don't have a great recent track record with acquiring older players. DJ never gets injured, and considering Doc never plays his backup C's, if the team had Chandler and he got injured, Doc would probably start Josh Smith at C. That's a scary thought...

Chandler is signed for $13 million/year until he's 36 years old. DJ this season is making $6.5 million/year more, yes, but he's 5 years younger also.

I believe we had some discussions about the whole situation of DJ leaving when that seemed like the reality. It wasn't a death sentence, but with how the salary cap was, it wasn't really a situation where the Clippers would now have money to sign a max player just like that. I believe when we examined it, the sort of more realistic best case realistic scenario if looking for a sort of "star" like player was something like trying to convince Al Horford to come here to play C, but even that didn't make much sense considering the Hawks are quite good.

I have no issues with Horford, but is that what you're going to sell Blake on? Wasting a year so you can get Al Horford at C making the same amount as DJ? I believe the other options was to try and get two players, a C and a SF, and again, of course we have to be realistic as to who the team can actually get, and it would end up being like Roy Hibbert or Pau Gasol if he didn't pick up his option at C as the big man options, and best case scenario, getting that guy at a price that then allows you to also convince and get Nicolas Batum at SF. If not Batum, your secondary options are Luol Deng and Jeff Green.

Guys like Drummond and Beal are restricted, they are out. There's the option of trying to fight Miami for Whiteside, but I'm not sure how Doc who Whiteside said supposedly didn't give him a chance (whether true or not) will convince him to come here as opposed to stay where he's gotten comfortable and has a nice role.

Cap space always sounds great until we look more in depth.

I know as fans we love the idea of possibility, and people love to just think cap space = unlimited possibilities, but I think it is a good idea to always look at what that cap space can actually get you.

Now let's say you don't get even any of the secondary guys you want, maybe because you're aimlessly going after a Durant, then now in order to be competitive, you're either giving bigger contracts than you should to just decent guys, or you're now wasting TWO seasons of Blake's prime and telling him to wait until the next year again when this time you'll make good with the cap space.

I don't even know what players are available then.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#82 » by Ballerhogger » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:00 am

lossing 3-1 to one trick pony rockets still has lasting affects.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#83 » by Skyhawk1 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:05 am

The Clippers have a top 3 PG in the game, an OVERRATED center who can't defend the pick and roll, an athletic PF who loves to dunk as much as he hates playing defense, and a bunch of old guys who basically did not have much of a market (Johnson, Lance, Smith), an ancient SF who should be retired. That's not bad if you have a coach capable of running a system that can make all these pieces work together. Their coach SUCKS. In other words, or in Mark Cuban words, you can change players, you can change coaches, you can change the entire front office, but the Clippers will always be the Clippers :nod: :lol: :nod: :lol: :nod: :lol: :nod:
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#84 » by OkcSinceSGA » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:09 am

Skyhawk1 wrote:The Clippers have a top 3 PG in the game, an OVERRATED center who can't defend the pick and roll, an athletic PF who loves to dunk as much as he hates playing defense, and a bunch of old guys who basically did not have much of a market (Johnson, Lance, Smith), an ancient SF who should be retired. That's not bad if you have a coach capable of running a system that can make all these pieces work together. Their coach SUCKS. In other words, or in Mark Cuban words, you can change players, you can change coaches, you can change the entire front office, but the Clippers will always be the Clippers :nod: :lol: :nod: :lol: :nod: :lol: :nod:



Griffin had like 30 or 40 dunks all year last season and about 50 percent of his buckets are midrange the last couple years. He's also become a really good post defender, although not rim defender. But agree on DJ.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#85 » by ZB9 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:28 am

The Clips did Dallas a favor.

Zaza is a better all around player than DeAndre.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#86 » by OkcSinceSGA » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:16 am

ZB9 wrote:The Clips did Dallas a favor.

Zaza is a better all around player than DeAndre.


I wouldn't say better BUT I will say for the price, he's hands down the better choice and he's surely not much worse. TBH I was one of the few who thought letting DJ walk and getting a budget center like Zaza was the right choice. Because I just don't think the Clippers trio is the right mix to win a title. So why keep getting early playoff exits instead of trying a new piece? Even if Clippers had to have a bad year this year like OKC last year, it's worth it if it extends the title window.

Zaza has been awesome. In general Mavs deserve a ton of praise/respect. They are the 4 seed and have done some nice things. Williams+Zaza have been huge for the prices they got them for!
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#87 » by Goner » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:11 am

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Right on que for Goner.

Synergy Sports Tech ‏@SynergySST 41m41 minutes ago
Only 4 players in the NBA are using 16+ POS/G and scoring over 1.1 PTS/POS: Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, and Kawhi Leonard.

That's a great stat, but I still stand by my position: Blake isn't the type of player to be the #1 option and take a team to a championship. He isn't a fighter and you could see it in his face. I'm not saying he's soft, I just wouldn't have faith in him to create something out of nothing when the chips are down.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#88 » by ken6199 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:25 am

og15 wrote:I believe the other options was to try and get two players, a C and a SF, and again, of course we have to be realistic as to who the team can actually get, and it would end up being like Roy Hibbert or Pau Gasol if he didn't pick up his option at C as the big man options, and best case scenario, getting that guy at a price that then allows you to also convince and get Nicolas Batum at SF. If not Batum, your secondary options are Luol Deng and Jeff Green.

As a retrospective thought: what if DJ went to Mavs, and LAC picked up Zaza + Aminu. That's 13m combined, Zaza is 31yo, and Aminu is 25yo. No cap at the time maybe?
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#89 » by nickhx2 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:26 am

Blake's hit a significant amount of bailout shots this year from range even with dudes in his face and he's the best passing big in the game.

i think your definition of creation is probably different than mine.


Let's be real. By the time blake gets to the 4th quarter, cp3 is the one tasked to handle the late game theatrics while blake doesn't get enough reps to do so. What has happened over the course of his career is he's consistently made a mistake here and there in his limited chance, all the while overthinking things and trying to do too much. But if you've paid attention to his career trajectory thus far you'd see he's improved in literally EVERY single aspect of his game since his rookie season. He might not have a rep as a clutch hero guy yet but when all is said and done i'd bet more than a dollar that he irons that out, too.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#90 » by nickhx2 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:28 am

ken6199 wrote:
og15 wrote:I believe the other options was to try and get two players, a C and a SF, and again, of course we have to be realistic as to who the team can actually get, and it would end up being like Roy Hibbert or Pau Gasol if he didn't pick up his option at C as the big man options, and best case scenario, getting that guy at a price that then allows you to also convince and get Nicolas Batum at SF. If not Batum, your secondary options are Luol Deng and Jeff Green.

As a retrospective thought: what if DJ went to Mavs, and LAC picked up Zaza + Aminu. That's 13m combined, Zaza is 31yo, and Aminu is 25yo. No cap at the time maybe?


clips didn't really have cap options even if jordan got away. wouldn't have worked.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#91 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:28 am

Goner wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Right on que for Goner.

Synergy Sports Tech ‏@SynergySST 41m41 minutes ago
Only 4 players in the NBA are using 16+ POS/G and scoring over 1.1 PTS/POS: Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, and Kawhi Leonard.

That's a great stat, but I still stand by my position: Blake isn't the type of player to be the #1 option and take a team to a championship. He isn't a fighter and you could see it in his face. I'm not saying he's soft, I just wouldn't have faith in him to create something out of nothing when the chips are down.

And let me guess, you think CP2ndRound is a #1 option who can take the team to a ring? :crazy:
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#92 » by ken6199 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:35 am

nickhx2 wrote:
ken6199 wrote:
og15 wrote:I believe the other options was to try and get two players, a C and a SF, and again, of course we have to be realistic as to who the team can actually get, and it would end up being like Roy Hibbert or Pau Gasol if he didn't pick up his option at C as the big man options, and best case scenario, getting that guy at a price that then allows you to also convince and get Nicolas Batum at SF. If not Batum, your secondary options are Luol Deng and Jeff Green.

As a retrospective thought: what if DJ went to Mavs, and LAC picked up Zaza + Aminu. That's 13m combined, Zaza is 31yo, and Aminu is 25yo. No cap at the time maybe?


clips didn't really have cap options even if jordan got away. wouldn't have worked.


Not straight up swallow, but S&T Aminu (give up his son, who knows, he may start for Portland), plus assets. As good as DJ is, I think having a 2nd/3rd tier at C but with guys like Aminu at SF spot will work out a bit better, maybe not this year, but moving forward. CP and Blake are on the book till 2018, the championship window is still open.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#93 » by 2 kewl 4 skool » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:11 pm

nickhx2 wrote:Blake's hit a significant amount of bailout shots this year from range even with dudes in his face and he's the best passing big in the game.

i think your definition of creation is probably different than mine.


Let's be real. By the time blake gets to the 4th quarter, cp3 is the one tasked to handle the late game theatrics while blake doesn't get enough reps to do so. What has happened over the course of his career is he's consistently made a mistake here and there in his limited chance, all the while overthinking things and trying to do too much. But if you've paid attention to his career trajectory thus far you'd see he's improved in literally EVERY single aspect of his game since his rookie season. He might not have a rep as a clutch hero guy yet but when all is said and done i'd bet more than a dollar that he irons that out, too.

I blame the coach. People forget, Blake was ballin against the Spurs in last year's playoffs. Absolutely schooled Kawhi, Spurs had nothing to shut this guy down. But mental mistakes and fatigue especially in the 4th ruins the guy.

I hope to see more ball movement especially in the 4th. Not !$@#% let a scrub like Crawford iso smh
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#94 » by robbie84 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:53 pm

Blake Griffin is going to contend for MVP this year.
They are way deeper than they've ever been.

Doc's going to try plenty of different defensive schemes in preparation for the playoffs for their inevitable meeting.
Lance Stephenson, Pierce and Josh Smith are enormous acquisitions for this team and Blake Griffin's jumpshot is a reliable weapon now.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#95 » by talkiewalkie » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:10 pm

Is it me or are these 1980's - 90's retired NBA point guards turned Head Coaches the ultimate death knell for a team's championship hopes:

Isaiah Thomas
Magic Johnson
Avery Johnson
Byron Scott
Mark Jackson
Doc Rivers
..who am I missing?


1 championship between them all...and Doc needed a super-team assembled to make this work.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#96 » by EuroPacer » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:32 pm

Interesting position the Clippers find themselves in. I agree Doc is not a coach that is going to get anything out of this team. I watched the GSW game with great intent and was shocked at how poor the Clippers played to close the game. I was completely baffled why Lance Stephenson (btw, someone called him old earlier in the thread... lol) did not play over Jamal Crawford, Lance can bring up the ball and create stuff - whilst being solid defensively. Sure he might have a few knucklehead plays in him, but he is not a black hole on D like Crawford - electing to play Austin Rivers over Stephenson was a down-right insult to Lance and I don't think he is going to stay happy for very long, probably ending his career in the process. Instead he has been dumped in at the 3 for some completely mysterious reason and is now racking up DNP after DNP. Poor, poor management.

as echoed elsewhere in this thread, DJ is an over-rated player. I was surprised Cuban went after him so hard, he is spectacular when running the floor and finishing alley-oops and he is a decent shotblocker, but not a lot more than that, he is entirely one-dimensional and very easy to defend as well as beat defensively. The Clips should have let him go imo, missed opportunity.

The one thing that I love on the Clips though is Griffin and the jumps he has made these last few years. I don't know if Doc is responsible for that or not, but Griffin is now a top ten player in this league. I also think the overall roster composition (minus DJ) is strong, Smith and Stephenson are excellent additions, Pierce could be a useful bench-player and is a strong voice in the locker-room, but somehow it is not clicking and there is only one responsible for that.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#97 » by marthafokker » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:08 pm

talkiewalkie wrote:Is it me or are these 1980's - 90's retired NBA point guards turned Head Coaches the ultimate death knell for a team's championship hopes:

Isaiah Thomas
Magic Johnson
Avery Johnson
Byron Scott
Mark Jackson
Doc Rivers
..who am I missing?


1 championship between them all...and Doc needed a super-team assembled to make this work.


Hey. You disrespecting GSW too? Steve Kerr don't count? :D
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#98 » by talkiewalkie » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:23 pm

marthafokker wrote:
talkiewalkie wrote:Is it me or are these 1980's - 90's retired NBA point guards turned Head Coaches the ultimate death knell for a team's championship hopes:

Isaiah Thomas
Magic Johnson
Avery Johnson
Byron Scott
Mark Jackson
Doc Rivers
..who am I missing?


1 championship between them all...and Doc needed a super-team assembled to make this work.


Hey. You disrespecting GSW too? Steve Kerr don't count? :D


Kerr was never really a lead guard though.. He was a pure spot-up guy
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#99 » by og15 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:15 pm

ken6199 wrote:
nickhx2 wrote:
ken6199 wrote:As a retrospective thought: what if DJ went to Mavs, and LAC picked up Zaza + Aminu. That's 13m combined, Zaza is 31yo, and Aminu is 25yo. No cap at the time maybe?


clips didn't really have cap options even if jordan got away. wouldn't have worked.


Not straight up swallow, but S&T Aminu (give up his son, who knows, he may start for Portland), plus assets. As good as DJ is, I think having a 2nd/3rd tier at C but with guys like Aminu at SF spot will work out a bit better, maybe not this year, but moving forward. CP and Blake are on the book till 2018, the championship window is still open.

Any moves the Clippers could make not signing DJ, they could make while still signing DJ.
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Re: How many years has Doc set the Clippers back? 

Post#100 » by og15 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:18 pm

nickhx2 wrote:Blake's hit a significant amount of bailout shots this year from range even with dudes in his face and he's the best passing big in the game.

i think your definition of creation is probably different than mine.


Let's be real. By the time blake gets to the 4th quarter, cp3 is the one tasked to handle the late game theatrics while blake doesn't get enough reps to do so. What has happened over the course of his career is he's consistently made a mistake here and there in his limited chance, all the while overthinking things and trying to do too much. But if you've paid attention to his career trajectory thus far you'd see he's improved in literally EVERY single aspect of his game since his rookie season. He might not have a rep as a clutch hero guy yet but when all is said and done i'd bet more than a dollar that he irons that out, too.

It also doesn't help the team more times than they probably should let happen, any big shot they hit down the stretch, they erase by playing poor defense and giving up a good look. I'm not saying other teams aren't ever going to score, but you don't want to let your own bad defense be the reason that they score.

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