The Lakers not hiring Phil Jackson

[Slava]

When you go from Jerry Buss, Phil Jackson and Jerry West as Owner/Coach/GM to Jim Buss, Byron Scott and Kobe Bryant...you're going to see drop-off.

Jerry West hasn't been the GM since 2000. They did fine over the next 10 years.

I know that. Jerry West acquired Shaq and Kobe the player (as opposed to Kobe the GM whose salary is higher than his field goal percentage). They would not have been fine without them.

He called Kobe the GM. How cute and original.

[taikibansei]

Here I was feeling glad for the Knicks fans that they got Porzingis and finally have semblance of happiness in their franchise history. Then they turn back and crap on us for having a trust fund baby as the owner. If anyone understands our pain, its you guys, thanks to Jimmy Dolan.

Ha! No counterargument to that possible...sadly.

[Cycklops]

Jerry West hasn't been the GM since 2000. They did fine over the next 10 years.

I know that. Jerry West acquired Shaq and Kobe the player (as opposed to Kobe the GM whose salary is higher than his field goal percentage). They would not have been fine without them.

He called Kobe the GM. How cute and original.

Trying to emotionally lash out at another poster for questioning your favorite player is very not cute and very not original.

[Cycklops]

Jerry West hasn't been the GM since 2000. They did fine over the next 10 years.

I know that. Jerry West acquired Shaq and Kobe the player (as opposed to Kobe the GM whose salary is higher than his field goal percentage). They would not have been fine without them.

I don't understand what this post means?

Team has lost Jerry West (among other people) so they are in trouble. Someone points out that Jerry hasn't been there since 2000, I point out that their success was solely with players (and actually coaches) acquired under Jerry West as their lead guys. Therefore despite leaving in 2000, Jerry was instrumental in their success through the entire decade.

[LLcoleJ]

I know that. Jerry West acquired Shaq and Kobe the player (as opposed to Kobe the GM whose salary is higher than his field goal percentage). They would not have been fine without them.

I don't understand what this post means?

Team has lost Jerry West (among other people) so they are in trouble. Someone points out that Jerry hasn't been there since 2000, I point out that their success was solely with players (and actually coaches) acquired under Jerry West as their lead guys. Therefore despite leaving in 2000, Jerry was instrumental in their success through the entire decade.

So you are going to ignore...Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton , Dwight Howard and various other players Insturmental in over a decade of dominance , championships and being one of the top teams in the league?

[mup]

When you go from Jerry Buss, Phil Jackson and Jerry West as Owner/Coach/GM to Jim Buss, Byron Scott and Kobe Bryant...you're going to see drop-off.

Jerry West hasn't been the GM since 2000. They did fine over the next 10 years.

I know that. Jerry West acquired Shaq and Kobe the player (as opposed to Kobe the GM whose salary is higher than his field goal percentage). They would not have been fine without them.

I think everyone's salary is higher than their field goal percentage. Unless there's somebody out there shooting 4,000,000%


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[Doctor MJ]

Here's a piece from 2013, Jeanie talking about being stunned they didn't hire him.

After we went to bed, the house phone rang at 11:30. I heard Phil pick it up and say, "Okay, alright. Okay."


When he hung up, I asked him what that was about, and he said, "Mitch called to tell me they've hired D'Antoni. He said that they feel given the personnel they have that D'Antoni is a better fit. He said they know they are going to take a bit of a PR hit, but he thinks it will blow over in a month."

"He said it will blow over in a month?" I repeated in disbelief.

I was still trying to wake up.

I was stunned. I said to Phil, "They came to you. You were not looking for the job. I cannot believe this."

I knew Phil wasn't going to argue with them.

Last time they sniffed the playoffs they got swept a couple years ago, playoffs are currently not even in the picture for several years. Obviously have awful management at the moment. This franchise seems to have a dim future, nothing indicates otherwise. What needs to be done to help the Lakers?

Well, first a comment:

I think in general Jim Buss has gotten too much criticism. Leaving the prime of a dynasty they took 2 bits of the apple with Chris Paul and Dwight Howard. Those were two good bites, and much of what went wrong wasn't really the stuff you can reasonably blame on management.

Where I think the Laker management does deserve criticism relates to Jackson 2-fold:

1) Buss & co have epically screwed up their coaches post-Jackson. On their 3rd coach now and frankly they may need to ditch him shortly too.

2) All of this relates in my mind to not knowing how to deal with an aging Kobe. They were hoping that they wouldn't need to do anything super-dramatic against him...and so they didn't. The hope was understandable, but it proved misguided. And then of course after they lost Howard, by all rights they should have kicked Kobe to the curb for his piss-poor attitude in securing the future of the franchise, but by that point they had literally nothing left except Kobe.

Jackson isn't the miracle worker that people think he is, but what he is, is somebody who always knows what he wants to do, and who has built up the capital to safeguard both himself and his bosses from too harsh a criticism. I generally have the impression that Jim Buss wanted to move on without their being a 600 lb gorilla in Jackson standing next to him, but what we've found is that Buss didn't have the strength to actually make the hard decision he needed to moving on without Jackson, and so quite clearly they should have hired Jackson back rather than facing what they are facing now.

[Cycklops]

I don't understand what this post means?

Team has lost Jerry West (among other people) so they are in trouble. Someone points out that Jerry hasn't been there since 2000, I point out that their success was solely with players (and actually coaches) acquired under Jerry West as their lead guys. Therefore despite leaving in 2000, Jerry was instrumental in their success through the entire decade.

So you are going to ignore...Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton , Dwight Howard and various other players Insturmental in over a decade of dominance , championships and being one of the top teams in the league?

My statement was that Jerry West acquired the lead guys (Phil, Shaq, Kobe) and was thus instrumental in their success.

Gasol, Odom, and Bynum were great complimentary pieces to Kobe (Jerry West). Karl Malone and Gary Payton came to ring-chase due to the presence of Shaq (Jerry West). Dwight Howard left largely because the Lakers wouldn't rehire Phil Jackson (brought in under...Jerry West).

Mitch Kupchak is indeed very smart, but West brought in the key parts for that decade, and Mitch's intelligence has been supplanted by GM Kobe, which was allowed to happen by Jim Buss.

[-Sammy-]

I don't understand what this post means?

Team has lost Jerry West (among other people) so they are in trouble. Someone points out that Jerry hasn't been there since 2000, I point out that their success was solely with players (and actually coaches) acquired under Jerry West as their lead guys. Therefore despite leaving in 2000, Jerry was instrumental in their success through the entire decade.

So you are going to ignore...Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton , Dwight Howard and various other players Insturmental in over a decade of dominance , championships and being one of the top teams in the league?

Odom and Gasol were products of the Shaq signing (Odom directly, from the Shaq-to-Miami trade; Gasol indirectly, since he was the return on trading Kwame Brown, who was acquired by trading Caron Butler, who also came over in the Shaq trade); Malone and Payton came specifically BECAUSE Shaq and Kobe were already present in L.A.; and Dwight Howard was never part of any dominance or championships.

You're right about Bynum, though.

[Cycklops]

Jerry West hasn't been the GM since 2000. They did fine over the next 10 years.

I know that. Jerry West acquired Shaq and Kobe the player (as opposed to Kobe the GM whose salary is higher than his field goal percentage). They would not have been fine without them.

I think everyone's salary is higher than their field goal percentage. Unless there's somebody out there shooting 4,000,000%

Not when you count by millions.

[elBJ]

I get the feeling Jim allows personal feelings to get in the way of sound business decisions which can be disastrous in sports as well as the real world. Byron is a terrible coach. But to be honest Phil Jackson along with Pat Riley and Pop as his assistants couldn't do a lot with the current roster.

Phil wanted a roll in executive decisions as he has in NY, so far Phil is leading them very well. He wanted a position similar to what Doc Rivers has.

And he should have been given that he had earned that right to be given that amount of power. Again, I believe ego played a part in that decision as Jim wanted to distance himself from other's decisions and wanted to do things his way

I would love to see his face when he realizes Dolan already did it "his way" only to end up taking a step back and let Phil take over.

[LLcoleJ]

Team has lost Jerry West (among other people) so they are in trouble. Someone points out that Jerry hasn't been there since 2000, I point out that their success was solely with players (and actually coaches) acquired under Jerry West as their lead guys. Therefore despite leaving in 2000, Jerry was instrumental in their success through the entire decade.

So you are going to ignore...Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton , Dwight Howard and various other players Insturmental in over a decade of dominance , championships and being one of the top teams in the league?

My statement was that Jerry West acquired the lead guys (Phil, Shaq, Kobe) and was thus instrumental in their success.

Gasol, Odom, and Bynum were great complimentary pieces to Kobe (Jerry West). Karl Malone and Gary Payton came to ring-chase due to the presence of Shaq (Jerry West). Dwight Howard left largely because the Lakers wouldn't rehire Phil Jackson (brought in under...Jerry West).

Mitch Kupchak is indeed very smart, but West brought in the key parts for that decade, and Mitch's intelligence has been supplanted by GM Kobe, which was allowed to happen by Jim Buss.

Do you realize that it's awfully hard to be a competitive team for a decade and by competitive I mean top 1-2 for a generation ? And that is actually done by putting complimentary pieces around your foundation for a sustained period of time. Something Buss and Mitch have been doing for a long time. There biggest obstacle has been the changes in the CBA that were made to hamstring them.

I realize that Jerry snagged Shaq and Kobe in 1996 but he did not sustain their success by proxy. Also, for your info.. Jerry West and Phil Jackson don't like each other. Dr Buss brought him in and it's one of the reasons Jerry left. He did " bring in Phil".

Side note: I do find it amusing that you credit Kobe Bryant for being the mainstay of a talent foundation in this thread and mock his existence in every other Kobe thread you have ever posted in.

[LLcoleJ]

Team has lost Jerry West (among other people) so they are in trouble. Someone points out that Jerry hasn't been there since 2000, I point out that their success was solely with players (and actually coaches) acquired under Jerry West as their lead guys. Therefore despite leaving in 2000, Jerry was instrumental in their success through the entire decade.

So you are going to ignore...Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone, Gary Payton , Dwight Howard and various other players Insturmental in over a decade of dominance , championships and being one of the top teams in the league?

Odom and Gasol were products of the Shaq signing (Odom directly, from the Shaq-to-Miami trade; Gasol indirectly, since he was the return on trading Kwame Brown, who was acquired by trading Caron Butler, who also came over in the Shaq trade); Malone and Payton came specifically BECAUSE Shaq and Kobe were already present in L.A.; and Dwight Howard was never part of any dominance or championships.

You're right about Bynum, though.

The point being is that Buss and Mitch have been GM'ing this team for over 15 years. During most of that time They have either acquired talent to keep them interesting or have won titles. That is not something that is common in the NBA. They have not rested on the moves from the GM that were made in 1996. Lol. come on man you are smarter than that.

[-Sammy-]

The point being is that Buss and Mitch have been GM'ing this team for over 15 years. During most of that time They have either acquired talent to keep them interesting or have won titles. That is not something that is common in the NBA.

For sure.

They have not rested on the moves from the GM that were made in 1996.

No, I don't think so, either, and I don't think Cycklops was trying to argue that. I think he was just asserting that the Shaq and Kobe acquisitions really set the team up well for a long time- to the extent that they were STILL benefiting indirectly 15 years later (though I agree that it isn't like West foresaw all those moves or anything). The difference between West's moves and some of the recent Buss/Kupchak ones is that West's moves continued to reap benefits for many years (directly and indirectly), and the moves B/K made to supplement them were just that- supplementary.

come on man you are smarter than that.

Well, NOW you're just talking crazy.

[Cycklops]

Do you realize that it's awfully hard to be a competitive team for a decade and by competitive I mean top 1-2 for a generation ? And that is actually done by putting complimentary pieces around your foundation for a sustained period of time. Something Buss and Mitch have been doing for a long time. There biggest obstacle has been the changes in the CBA that were made to hamstring them.

I realize it's awfully hard. I rank Phil Jackson as the best coach who ever lived, Jerry Buss as the best owner, and Jerry West as a Top 2 or 3 GM who ever lived (after only Red Auerbach and possibly RC Buford). Mitch was taught well by Jerry and is smart enough to apply what he learned.

I realize that Jerry snagged Shaq and Kobe in 1996 but he did not sustain their success by proxy. Also, for your info.. Jerry West and Phil Jackson don't like each other. Dr Buss brought him in and it's one of the reasons Jerry left. He did " bring in Phil".

That may be the case, I don't feel like double-checking Phil's books at the moment. But even granting that Jerry West was smart enough not to let ego get in the way of the decision. That's more than you can say for the current front office. Also, if Jerry Buss brought in Phil, that doesn't alter the situation. Jerry Buss isn't coming back either.

Side note: I do find it amusing that you credit Kobe Bryant for being the mainstay of a talent foundation in this thread and mock his existence in every other Kobe thread you have ever posted in.

Because GM Kobe is funny. And you know it too.

[The Skyhook]

This team isn't going to turn it around until Kobe is gone. I'd understand threads of this nature if the Lakers were still in the same position 5 years after Kobe is gone but right now they're ridiculous.

[LLcoleJ]

No, I don't think so, either, and I don't think Cycklops was trying to argue that. I think he was just asserting that the Shaq and Kobe acquisitions really set the team up well for a long time- to the extent that they were STILL benefiting indirectly 15 years later (though I agree that it isn't like West foresaw all those moves or anything). The difference between West's moves and some of the recent Buss/Kupchak ones is that West's moves continued to reap benefits for many years (directly and indirectly), and the moves B/K made to supplement them were just that- supplementary.

That's the thing though. Hindsight is great when you forget all the other stuff. The moves B/K made were not supplementary they were mandatory with a high success of potential failure.

If Kobe didn't resign back in the day. It's possible that the Lakers would have been capped out with an aging Shaq, Luke Walton, Brian Cook and the MLE. Would we have looked back and said: "thanks a lot Jerry West, you suck." Probably not.

If you want to make a post ( quoted above) that has the parameters of .. compare West's moves 20 years ago and look at the moves the the FO has made the last couple years and forget about everything else in the middle that's on you. But it's dishonest at best.

[LLcoleJ]

That may be the case, I don't feel like double-checking Phil's books at the moment. But even granting that Jerry West was smart enough not to let ego get in the way of the decision. That's more than you can say for the current front office. Also, if Jerry Buss brought in Phil, that doesn't alter the situation. Jerry Buss isn't coming back either.

Oh please don't go fact check on me.

I don't understand where this Jerry Buss isn't coming back straw man is about either?

Because GM Kobe is funny. And you know it too.

See that's the thing. There is really no significant instance over 20 years with Kobe that he even remotely played GM. In fact, one could argue he whined that he didn't have that power that players have. So again, I don't see where you get your info from.

[Cycklops]

That may be the case, I don't feel like double-checking Phil's books at the moment. But even granting that Jerry West was smart enough not to let ego get in the way of the decision. That's more than you can say for the current front office. Also, if Jerry Buss brought in Phil, that doesn't alter the situation. Jerry Buss isn't coming back either.

Oh please don't go fact check on me.

I don't understand where this Jerry Buss isn't coming back straw man is about either?

Strawman? The whole point is that the Lakers braintrust has been replaced. Telling me that one member of the braintrust that is now gone did something instead of another member doesn't change that.

Because GM Kobe is funny. And you know it too.

See that's the thing. There is really no significant instance over 20 years with Kobe that he even remotely played GM. In fact, one could argue he whined that he didn't have that power that players have. So again, I don't see where you get your info from.

Sounds like somebody didn't read Phil's books.

[LLcoleJ]

Strawman? The whole point is that the Lakers braintrust has been replaced. Telling me that one member of the braintrust that is now gone did something instead of another member doesn't change that.

Why would you assume that I think Jerry West or Jerry Buss would come back? And how is that relevant when you are trying to compare eras and FO's when they both have been successful in their own right?

Sounds like somebody didn't read Phil's books.

Ok I will bite. Give me some Phil knowledge that supersedes the fact that Kobe had such power and made GM type moves.?