Why does Hinkie get so much flak, but Suns are even more of joke?

[WestGOAT]

Beating the Pelicans, and Rockets recently and now they are getting out-tanked by the Celtics (thanks to great Billy King).

No coherent plan at all, and I bet you they will luck into the #1 draft pick, snab a franchise player, and then people will be revising history years later and how great of GM Ryan McDonoug was compared to likes of Hinkie et al .

[Jakay]

snab... nice

[OrlandoDream]

Because the Suns went into the season trying to win while Hinkie build a team Meants to tank all year and compete for worse record. Suns were just plagued by injury and ran out of players. The fact that they are in a position to possibly have a better pick then Philly is kinda hilarious and proof that Hinkies method only looks good on paper. Hence he is unemployed and Ryan McDo ought is not.

[Foshan]

Because the Suns went into the season trying to win while Hinkie build a team Meants to tank all year and compete for worse record. Suns were just plagued by injury and ran out of players. The fact that they are in a position to possibly have a better pick then Philly is kinda hilarious and proof that Hinkies method only looks good on paper. Hence he is unemployed and Ryan McDo ought is not.

I guess the question is do you want a GM who has a plan to be competitive now and fails completely or a GM who has a plan to dominate later at the cost of winning now.

Obviously the NBA and Media are more in favor of the first. As a Sixer's fan (who watched option A for the past 10+ years) I was quite excited about option B.

[walk with me]

the suns seemed to try to be good. They just made foolish decisions
the 76ers were not even trying to be good. They were purposefully making awful decisions lol.

[Revived]

Because the Suns have at least hit in the draft and have better prospects (Booker, Len, Warren) than Philly despite the 76ers (Okafor, Noel, Embiid) having higher draft selections than the Suns.

Thing with the 76ers is that despite all the high pics they've had, they haven't really hit on any of it. Call it luck, call it fate, whatever but it's true.

And the Suns were bad because their two best players (Bledsoe and Knight) missed a crap ton of games. If not, then Suns probably would have been competing with Utah/Dallas/Houston for playoffs.

Suns have made some dumb decisions like trading IT for so little and trading the LAL pick for Knight but they've also came out tough situations pretty well (Dragic for TWO future unprotected 1sr rd picks and Kieff for a lottery pick this draft).

[WestGOAT]

Because the Suns went into the season trying to win while Hinkie build a team Meants to tank all year and compete for worse record. Suns were just plagued by injury and ran out of players. The fact that they are in a position to possibly have a better pick then Philly is kinda hilarious and proof that Hinkies method only looks good on paper. Hence he is unemployed and Ryan McDo ought is not.

Really? McDo comes off a feel-good season in which Bledsoe and Dragic almost lead the Suns to the playoffs in the West in 2014 (would have been top 4 seed in the east), proceeds to sign Isiah Thomas and creates a logjam at point-guard, dumps him to the Celtics, yet not early enough so Dragic is hell-bent on leaving, gives up the juicy Lakers pick in exchange for Brandon Knight (!!!!) . He did good on getting picks in return for Dragic.

You will have difficult time convincing me this guy has a plan, and then we are not even talking about executing it, opposed to Hinkie, who started from scracth and actually left the 76'rs with a bunch of assests.

[garrick]

I think the Suns have proven you can still get quality picks in the draft without trying to tank outright.

The only problems has been dealing with injuries to their best player and dealing with a huge malcontent like Morris who should have been dealt with a lot sooner.

[DreDay]

Because the Suns went into the season trying to win while Hinkie build a team Meants to tank all year and compete for worse record. Suns were just plagued by injury and ran out of players. The fact that they are in a position to possibly have a better pick then Philly is kinda hilarious and proof that Hinkies method only looks good on paper. Hence he is unemployed and Ryan McDo ought is not.

lol, imagine where trying to win and losing is more impressive than trying to suck and losing.

You can only really say the suns GM is better at drafting than Hinkie. I can't imagine Hinkie ever screwing up the Morris Bros situation, or trading away an all-star in Isaiah Thomas for nothing, or trading a top 5 pick for Brandon Knight. Devin Booker is saving his job right now.

[Blame Rasho]

Sarver easily in the discussion of the worst owners not only in the NBA but in all the major sports.

[Roy The Natural]

The Suns have Devin Booker, and Alex Len..... they have a future. The 76ers have Al Jefferson, Greg Oden, and Ed Davis, this is the first year that the Suns have been truly awful, if they're doing this 2 years from now... they'll get flack.

[CoreyGallagher]

Because the Suns have at least hit in the draft and have better prospects (Booker, Len, Warren) than Philly despite the 76ers (Okafor, Noel, Embiid) having higher draft selections than the Suns.

Thing with the 76ers is that despite all the high pics they've had, they haven't really hit on any of it. Call it luck, call it fate, whatever but it's true.

The Suns have Devin Booker, and Alex Len..... they have a future. The 76ers have Al Jefferson, Greg Oden, and Ed Davis, this is the first year that the Suns have been truly awful, if they're doing this 2 years from now... they'll get flack.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=noelne01&y2=2016&p2=okafoja01&y3=2016&p3=lenal01&y4=2016&p4=bookede01&p5=&p6=

All of their metrics are negatively affected by playing on the rosters that they do. With consideration - Noel is the only player that positively contributes per BPM, VORP, and he has the highest WS(/48) among them. Okafor has the best raw stats, although his metrics are the poorest, still better than Len's were his rookie season in limited minutes and actually not much worse than they are in his third season. Not sure I understand this adoration for Len, he seems to be the worst among the the trio of bigs that have actually played and he's the oldest.

Weird thread. Weirder posts.

[XxIronChainzxX]

The Suns are written off as incompetence. Hinkie gets flak because he set out to produce garbage, and basically turned the franchise into a joke. It's one thing to lose on purpose. It's another thing to embarrass your franchise and the league in one go. That's what **** him ultimately.

[BNelley24]

The Suns are written off as incompetence. Hinkie gets flak because he set out to produce garbage, and basically turned the franchise into a joke. It's one thing to lose on purpose. It's another thing to embarrass your franchise and the league in one go. That's what **** him ultimately.

Enjoy your Raptors Finals title this year....oh wait, you're an overrated fake-good, treadmill team with no shot in hell at winning the title. Enjoy being stuck at this position for the next 5-10 years.

[BVPN]

The Suns are written off as incompetence. Hinkie gets flak because he set out to produce garbage, and basically turned the franchise into a joke. It's one thing to lose on purpose. It's another thing to embarrass your franchise and the league in one go. That's what **** him ultimately.

Enjoy your Raptors Finals title this year....oh wait, you're an overrated fake-good, treadmill team with no shot in hell at winning the title. Enjoy being stuck at this position for the next 5-10 years.

Lol. Be careful man, the sixers could easily be stuck in their position for the next five years too. All the high picks in the world don't mean **** if they don't pan out...the Kings for example were actually able to hit on a talent like Cousins and they've still been stuck for years. Building a team into a playoff contender takes a lot of luck, so all this confidence in Philly's future seems a bit misplaced.

As for the Suns, it's true they've been sort of floundering without a plan of late, but the roster isn't devoid of talent, even without significant tanking of late. There are definitely a lot of assets available for moves to be made, whether those moves will pan out...like I said, lot of luck involved in these things.

[BNelley24]

it isn't like Hinkie was purposely sabotaging the 76ers so that we'd lose games.

THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTAND THE PROCESS.

Based on his interviews etc. his 76ers rebuilding process boils down to 2 goals;

1) Find a superstar, because having one increases your chance to win a title exponentially.
2) Avoid mediocrity by not overpaying or signing players before your team is in a position to compete.

To do this he stripped the 76ers down by unloading some of the few veteran assets we had (Evan Turner, Hawes, Jrue, etc.)....These players had 0 value to us. Not only did they hurt us by giving us more wins, these players wouldn't be around in the future anyway. He got what he could for these players. I don't want to go through the list of Hinkie transactions, but the amount of assets he stockpiled for us is simply mind-boggling.

When Hinkie was rolling what people would call D-League talent out every year, his goal wasn't to put garbage on the court so that we'd lose the most games possible. He felt the 76ers were in a position to afford to roll out extremely young guys to see which guys might be diamonds in the rough. Robert Covington, Jeremi Grant for example have real shots at being role players on the 76ers in the future when we become contenders. The result of this was us having an absolutely dismal record. Losing was just a by product of the experiment.

Hinkie has also stated numerous times that this method needs luck. The Embiid thing was simply unlucky, though it remains to be seen with him....

I love how the same people who bash Hinkie are the ones who support GMs who roll out mediocre talent every year. Just because your team is a 4-5 seed doesn't mean **** in the NBA. The NBA is unlike any other league. You need to have superstar(s) to win.

It also takes time. The Warriors won like 20 something games with Curry & Thompson on the same team. The Sonics/ Thunder won 21 game sor so with Durant & Westbrook on the same team.

I coudl go on and on but I give up.

[Hindenburg]

it isn't like Hinkie was purposely sabotaging the 76ers so that we'd lose games.

THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTAND THE PROCESS.

Based on his interviews etc. his 76ers rebuilding process boils down to 2 goals;

1) Find a superstar, because having one increases your chance to win a title exponentially.
2) Avoid mediocrity by not overpaying or signing players before your team is in a position to compete.

To do this he stripped the 76ers down by unloading some of the few veteran assets we had (Evan Turner, Hawes, Jrue, etc.)....These players had 0 value to us. Not only did they hurt us by giving us more wins, these players wouldn't be around in the future anyway. He got what he could for these players. I don't want to go through the list of Hinkie transactions, but the amount of assets he stockpiled for us is simply mind-boggling.

When Hinkie was rolling what people would call D-League talent out every year, his goal wasn't to put garbage on the court so that we'd lose the most games possible. He felt the 76ers were in a position to afford to roll out extremely young guys to see which guys might be diamonds in the rough. Robert Covington, Jeremi Grant for example have real shots at being role players on the 76ers in the future when we become contenders. The result of this was us having an absolutely dismal record. Losing was just a by product of the experiment.

Hinkie has also stated numerous times that this method needs luck. The Embiid thing was simply unlucky, though it remains to be seen with him....

I love how the same people who bash Hinkie are the ones who support GMs who roll out mediocre talent every year. Just because your team is a 4-5 seed doesn't mean **** in the NBA. The NBA is unlike any other league. You need to have superstar(s) to win.

It also takes time. The Warriors won like 20 something games with Curry & Thompson on the same team. The Sonics/ Thunder won 21 game sor so with Durant & Westbrook on the same team.

I coudl go on and on but I give up.

the thing is, it would be ok if Hinkie only did this for 1 year. But he did it for 3 full years. Still no superstars, the team is still a mess. It is just mind blowing how Sixers can support a blatant tank for so long.

imagine if every team bought into that strategy. NBA would be unwatchable

[CoreyGallagher]

Because the Suns went into the season trying to win while Hinkie build a team Meants to tank all year and compete for worse record. Suns were just plagued by injury and ran out of players. The fact that they are in a position to possibly have a better pick then Philly is kinda hilarious and proof that Hinkies method only looks good on paper. Hence he is unemployed and Ryan McDo ought is not.

As of April 3rd (yet to be updated this weekend):
Suns - 155 games missed this season due to injury.
Sixers - 149 games missed this season due to injury (excluding Embiid).

Ignoring supposed intent, Sixers have had a ton of injuries this season as well. Now, I'm not arguing we could have had a better record than the Suns or that we weren't the worst team in the league or anything like that, but we've been plagued by injuries too and have also occasionally run out of players. Carl Landry and Elton Brand actually started for us 5 days ago.

[Novocaine]

it isn't like Hinkie was purposely sabotaging the 76ers so that we'd lose games.

THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTAND THE PROCESS.

Based on his interviews etc. his 76ers rebuilding process boils down to 2 goals;

1) Find a superstar, because having one increases your chance to win a title exponentially.
2) Avoid mediocrity by not overpaying or signing players before your team is in a position to compete.

To do this he stripped the 76ers down by unloading some of the few veteran assets we had (Evan Turner, Hawes, Jrue, etc.)....These players had 0 value to us. Not only did they hurt us by giving us more wins, these players wouldn't be around in the future anyway. He got what he could for these players. I don't want to go through the list of Hinkie transactions, but the amount of assets he stockpiled for us is simply mind-boggling.

Really? That's amazing. True genius. I wonder how Ryan McDonough didn't think of that himself. Or any other GM in the history of NBA. I mean, look at how easy it is:

- trade away or let walk every decent player you have because you're not competing and you dont want them to hurt you by "giving more wins", as you say
- draft BPA every draft, fill the roster with those rookies and other young, cheap players - your team will be horrible and not even get close to 20 wins
- rinse and repeat, keep doing it till eventually you luck into a superstar with those draft picks you got and traded for. If you do it long enough, it'll eventually happen, right?

Doesn't it make you wonder how Hinkie was the only guy ever who thought of this strategy? The guy going for the zig while everyone else zags, like he put in his letter? Isn't it amazing?

[Novocaine]

Because the Suns went into the season trying to win while Hinkie build a team Meants to tank all year and compete for worse record. Suns were just plagued by injury and ran out of players. The fact that they are in a position to possibly have a better pick then Philly is kinda hilarious and proof that Hinkies method only looks good on paper. Hence he is unemployed and Ryan McDo ought is not.

I guess the question is do you want a GM who has a plan to be competitive now and fails completely or a GM who has a plan to dominate later at the cost of winning now.

Obviously the NBA and Media are more in favor of the first. As a Sixer's fan (who watched option A for the past 10+ years) I was quite excited about option B.

Of course, what you call option B only works as long as you're the only one doing it. Imagine if every team without a bonafides superstar, a core good enough to make them a contender or that projects to be a contender, opts for option B. What happens then? Does option B still works? When there are 10 teams angling to field 10 wins teams?


That's why Hinkie was fired and rightly so - why the other teams pressured Silver to force the 76ers to hire Jerry Colangelo and stop the nonsense. It's amazing how many people can't see the huge collective action problem Hinkie's "strategy" creates.