New York number three seed in the east ?

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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#221 » by AJ37 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:06 am

Here's the fun part about the Knicks and the Bulls this upcoming season. They have the potential to be 3/4 seed.. they also have the potential to be 7/8 seed.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#222 » by CoachD » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:33 am

zeebneeb wrote:
CoachD wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Really? They are a very strong team, that is young and balanced.

Depth chart:
pg - Jackson, I.Smith, L.Brown
sg - KCP, Bullock
sf - M.Morris, (T.Harris), S.Johnson
pf - T.Harris, J.Leuer, Ellenson
cc - Drummond, Boban (Ellenson)

The team is built off young guys, generally 2-way players, who already have solid experience and are generally trending up. They were defending very well last season, and their offense improved with the addition of Harris as a small-ball 4 (covered by Drummond on defense).

This kind of balanced team is built in the Atlanta Hawks model of a couple years ago, or even the Pistons Championship model (where guys haven't shown that level of talent, yet, but could very well end up at a similar level).



So essentially, the same team that finished 8th, but with Tobias Harris for a whole season, and the addition of an NBA journeyman, you expect them to climb 5 spots.

Man.
so what are you using to come to a conclusion? Your "gut feeling"?

I'll stick to how the team played with Harris joining the starting lineup, (16-9) how they played the Cavs in the playoffs, and a much improved bench, which was the biggest weakness last year.

They also have the best game finisher in the league in Jackson.

Your just saying words, with no real thought behind them, save for "because I said so".


The best game finisher in the league?

LOL

He's not even in the conversation.

Someone just posted a chart showing the most clutch shooters in the NBA in the last 6 minutes of games

#1 Lebron
#2 Curry
#3 Derozan
#4 Lillard

Didn't see Reggie anywhere near that list
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#223 » by Nazrmohamed » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:15 pm

og15 wrote:This relies a lot on guys who have struggled with health consistently for some time to both be healthy, that should not be the expectation. The question should be if Rose plays 68 games and Noah plays 65 games, can the Knicks get the 3rd seed? That's more of what should be asked, and I don't know if they can with that many missed games.


True, however I think the knicks hedged against that a bit with the Jennings signing. I wouldn't want him starting a full year but I think hes a backup who can either
-start the games Rose misses and hopefully he gets to 70 games or we're screwed
-play enough minutes per game to keep Rose well rested in the games he plays.

Noah, I have no idea. However ive suggested copying alittle of what the Warriors do (not saying itll have the same results) and how they use Bogut to start but then go to a smaller line up pretty early in games.

I gotta good feeling about this Kuz kid and don't think the adjustment will be too hard on him. I actually think it's Wily wholl have the harder adjustment. But anyway we could go small for periods throughout the season to both rest guys like Rose and Noah, but also cuz with Horniceks preferred style it actually might prove pretty lethal in spurts
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#224 » by Roddy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:32 pm

-Cavs
-Pacers
-Celtics
-Raptors
-Pistons
-Hawks
-Hornets
-Bulls
-Knicks

No playoffs...
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New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#225 » by Double Helix » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:48 pm

When the Knicks add stars they always seem better on paper than in reality because they always seem to suffer from chemistry issues. The pieces often just don't come together for them. This has especially been true defensively. I will not be surprised if the same thing occurs again.
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New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#226 » by Double Helix » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:54 pm

Tier 1: Defending Champs

Tier 2: Toronto, Boston, Indiana (these 3 will battle most for 2-4)

Tier 3: (5-11) Charlotte, Atlanta, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Washington.

While the West has two powerhouse teams in GSW and SA and still a solid OKC team this coming year the East will be more competitive and stronger 4-11 than what will exist in the West. Some very good teams will miss the playoffs in the East.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#227 » by MGB8 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:08 pm

Double Helix wrote:Tier 1: Defending Champs

Tier 2: Toronto, Boston, Indiana (these 3 will battle most for 2-4)

Tier 3: (5-11) Charlotte, Atlanta, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Washington.

While the West has two powerhouse teams in GSW and SA and still a solid OKC team this coming year the East will be more competitive and stronger 4-11 than what will exist in the West. Some very good teams will miss the playoffs in the East.



I actually think it's a full blown free-for-all after Cleveland. And don't forget Orlando. By adding Vogel, having a legit big-man rotation at the 4-5 with Vuc, Ibaka and Biyombo, a couple 3-4's in Green and Gordon, three shooters in Fournier, Hezonja, and even Meeks, and two passable point guards in Payton and Augustine - the team could easily be in the playoff hunt if things break right for them (or break wrong for other teams).

Meanwhile, while Cleveland can even withstand a Lebron injury (for a while) and still be near the top, every other team seems to be very vulnerable to injury. Toronto without Lowry is done. Boston without Thomas, while not "done," becomes a borderline playoff team. Crowder is key for them, too. Atlanta without Schroeder... Washington without Beal really steps back. Ditto Wall, probably. Indiana without George.

And while Chicago has the talent & depth to withstand an injury to Butler or whomever, it's such a gamble that the pieces fit, and that Hoiberg can handle them. Similarly, New York could handle an injury - but the question is with normal wear/injuries, are the guys going to play well enough, and mesh quickly enough (though much better fitting pieces than Chicago).
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New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#228 » by Double Helix » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:11 pm

You raise a good point about health. For all but the super teams... Health is paramount. If any one of the teams 2-11 loses their best player for a massive stretch of games they'll feel it huge. Every single one.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#229 » by Joe Buddy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:16 pm

MGB8 wrote:
Double Helix wrote:Tier 1: Defending Champs

Tier 2: Toronto, Boston, Indiana (these 3 will battle most for 2-4)

Tier 3: (5-11) Charlotte, Atlanta, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Washington.

While the West has two powerhouse teams in GSW and SA and still a solid OKC team this coming year the East will be more competitive and stronger 4-11 than what will exist in the West. Some very good teams will miss the playoffs in the East.



I actually think it's a full blown free-for-all after Cleveland. And don't forget Orlando. By adding Vogel, having a legit big-man rotation at the 4-5 with Vuc, Ibaka and Biyombo, a couple 3-4's in Green and Gordon, three shooters in Fournier, Hezonja, and even Meeks, and two passable point guards in Payton and Augustine - the team could easily be in the playoff hunt if things break right for them (or break wrong for other teams).

Meanwhile, while Cleveland can even withstand a Lebron injury (for a while) and still be near the top, every other team seems to be very vulnerable to injury. Toronto without Lowry is done. Boston without Thomas, while not "done," becomes a borderline playoff team. Crowder is key for them, too. Atlanta without Schroeder... Washington without Beal really steps back. Ditto Wall, probably. Indiana without George.

And while Chicago has the talent & depth to withstand an injury to Butler or whomever, it's such a gamble that the pieces fit, and that Hoiberg can handle them. Similarly, New York could handle an injury - but the question is with normal wear/injuries, are the guys going to play well enough, and mesh quickly enough (though much better fitting pieces than Chicago).


Cleveland was like 4-15 without LeBron in the lineup the last 2 years. They are just as vulnerable to injury as the other teams mentioned.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#230 » by MGB8 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:21 pm

Joe Buddy wrote:
Cleveland was like 4-15 without LeBron in the lineup the last 2 years. They are just as vulnerable to injury as the other teams mentioned.


Not sure that is true this year. Some of that was with other folks also injured, and also adjusting.

After last season's playoffs - Kyrie and Love, IMO would have enough to keep the Cavs towards the top of the East on their own, JR Smith and Dunleavy and Jefferson filling the Lebron minutes, and Shumpert and maybe McRae getting some of JR's playing time at the 2 (since he'd be playing the most minutes at the 3).

Without Lebron, they'd have no shot to make it to the Finals, but they could still beat a lot of other Eastern Conference teams on many nights.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#231 » by Amsterdam » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:28 pm

ciregno wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
ciregno wrote:Cleveland is the clear #1 out East. Indiana is number 2 but not by a whole lot I don't think. I think from 2-8, it's going to be a highly competitive fight til the very last game similar to what happened between Atlanta, Miami, Boston, and Charlotte this past season.

Howard, I feel, is a regression from Horford/Teague. Atlanta loses depth at PG and Howard just isn't the same player anymore. Post Orlando, he's no longer that dominant force and is a liability on offense if not involved. Boston improved this offseason, and may potentially make more moves. Charlotte, also lost some depth and added Hibbert who also isn't the same player as he was. Miami definitely got worst. Toronto surprised me last year, I think they'll be fighting Indiana for that #2 spot. Detroit will be on the upswing as well. Chicago is just an odd team to me. They have no long range shooters in their back court, and is Butler going to play the 3? Hoiberg is also a huge downgrade over Thibs.

NYK made moves for sure, but I think the most important thing to look at with this team over last years is mostly the hiring of Hornacek as coach, along with KP having a full year under his belt. Obviously if the Knicks can stay healthy for 60-70% of the season (and that's a big IF with our crappy medical team and history) I could see us fighting for anywhere between the 2-6 spot. However, any less than that, we're fighting for anywhere between 7-10 in the East. Rose and Noah will have to take on lesser roles, and I can see that happening with them playing alongside Melo and KP. Like the Knicks have said, they're building this team around KP, not Melo, and this has already started this season by surrounding him with vets.

1. Cleveland
2-6. Indiana, Toronto, Boston, New York, Atlanta
7-10. Charlotte, Chicago, Detroit, Orlando


While your post is excellent, I have but one disagreement. Atlanta to me has fallen to 7-10.


Thanks. Who do you see surpassing the Hawks in that 7-10 list? Originally I was thinking Detroit but Coach Bud is a very good coach, and I'm not quite sold on Detroit yet. Not saying SVG is worse, the man can coach too, but I like ATL's roster slightly more ATM. Also with the changes with the free throw rule, that will play a role too.


Coach Bud IS absolutely a great coach no question. What I'm saying is that the talent has leaked a little. But I'm with you in that Detroit is being still 6-7-8 in my opinion.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#232 » by Joe Buddy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:39 pm

MGB8 wrote:
Joe Buddy wrote:
Cleveland was like 4-15 without LeBron in the lineup the last 2 years. They are just as vulnerable to injury as the other teams mentioned.


Not sure that is true this year. Some of that was with other folks also injured, and also adjusting.

After last season's playoffs - Kyrie and Love, IMO would have enough to keep the Cavs towards the top of the East on their own, JR Smith and Dunleavy and Jefferson filling the Lebron minutes, and Shumpert and maybe McRae getting some of JR's playing time at the 2 (since he'd be playing the most minutes at the 3).

Without Lebron, they'd have no shot to make it to the Finals, but they could still beat a lot of other Eastern Conference teams on many nights.


4-8 without LeBron but with Love and Irving. So 0-7 if LeBron and one of Love or Irving are out of the lineup. And losing Delly (and to some extent Mozgov) doesn't help their cause this year.

But I'm with you on Orlando, they could be a very good team this year with Vogel at the helm.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#233 » by Indomitable » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:48 pm

zimpy27 wrote:Bulls - underestimated here, they could very well be 3rd IMO. People are so 3pt focussed but two-way players are what makes teams good and these guys can potentially play 5 two-way players when they only had 2 in total last year..

Who are these 5 2 way players?.Wade maybe but he has not been a defender for 3years.
Taj and Jimmy yes.
RONDO has not guarded since 2011 and is an inefficient scorer. HE is a one trick pony.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#234 » by CoachD » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:48 pm

MGB8 wrote:
Double Helix wrote:Tier 1: Defending Champs

Tier 2: Toronto, Boston, Indiana (these 3 will battle most for 2-4)

Tier 3: (5-11) Charlotte, Atlanta, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Washington.

While the West has two powerhouse teams in GSW and SA and still a solid OKC team this coming year the East will be more competitive and stronger 4-11 than what will exist in the West. Some very good teams will miss the playoffs in the East.



I actually think it's a full blown free-for-all after Cleveland. And don't forget Orlando. By adding Vogel, having a legit big-man rotation at the 4-5 with Vuc, Ibaka and Biyombo, a couple 3-4's in Green and Gordon, three shooters in Fournier, Hezonja, and even Meeks, and two passable point guards in Payton and Augustine - the team could easily be in the playoff hunt if things break right for them (or break wrong for other teams).

Meanwhile, while Cleveland can even withstand a Lebron injury (for a while) and still be near the top, every other team seems to be very vulnerable to injury. Toronto without Lowry is done. Boston without Thomas, while not "done," becomes a borderline playoff team. Crowder is key for them, too. Atlanta without Schroeder... Washington without Beal really steps back. Ditto Wall, probably. Indiana without George.

And while Chicago has the talent & depth to withstand an injury to Butler or whomever, it's such a gamble that the pieces fit, and that Hoiberg can handle them. Similarly, New York could handle an injury - but the question is with normal wear/injuries, are the guys going to play well enough, and mesh quickly enough (though much better fitting pieces than Chicago).



It has become really sexy to predict big things from Orlando.

Peyton and Augustin are probably the worst Guard combo in the NBA.
Augustin cannot run an offense, and is strictly a fast break guy.

The wing players for the Magic are just average NBA guys. Nothing special.

Ibaka is coming off a terrible season, and his producton has been decreased in each of the last 3 season. Is Ibaka the kind of guy Orlando is going to start running plays for and get him 19 attempts per game? Doubtful.

Biyombo put up virtually identical numbers 2 years ago to what he did in Toronto, and nobody wanted him a year ago. His massive limitations mean he is best served as a role playing big - but the contract will make them want to start him and give him more minutes than he can handle. He's a shot blocker, a good rebounder, but a complete negative on offence.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#235 » by Indomitable » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:50 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
ciregno wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
While your post is excellent, I have but one disagreement. Atlanta to me has fallen to 7-10.


Thanks. Who do you see surpassing the Hawks in that 7-10 list? Originally I was thinking Detroit but Coach Bud is a very good coach, and I'm not quite sold on Detroit yet. Not saying SVG is worse, the man can coach too, but I like ATL's roster slightly more ATM. Also with the changes with the free throw rule, that will play a role too.


Coach Bud IS absolutely a great coach no question. What I'm saying is that the talent has leaked a little. But I'm with you in that Detroit is being still 6-7-8 in my opinion.

Horford versatility will be missed. HOWARD has one post move and still no jump shot.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#236 » by Indomitable » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:50 pm

CoachD wrote:
zeebneeb wrote:
CoachD wrote:

So essentially, the same team that finished 8th, but with Tobias Harris for a whole season, and the addition of an NBA journeyman, you expect them to climb 5 spots.

Man.
so what are you using to come to a conclusion? Your "gut feeling"?

I'll stick to how the team played with Harris joining the starting lineup, (16-9) how they played the Cavs in the playoffs, and a much improved bench, which was the biggest weakness last year.

They also have the best game finisher in the league in Jackson.

Your just saying words, with no real thought behind them, save for "because I said so".


The best game finisher in the league?

LOL

He's not even in the conversation.

Someone just posted a chart showing the most clutch shooters in the NBA in the last 6 minutes of games

#1 Lebron
#2 Curry
#3 Derozan
#4 Lillard

Didn't see Reggie anywhere near that list

Let them dream.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#237 » by Indomitable » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:53 pm

CoachD wrote:
MGB8 wrote:
Double Helix wrote:Tier 1: Defending Champs

Tier 2: Toronto, Boston, Indiana (these 3 will battle most for 2-4)

Tier 3: (5-11) Charlotte, Atlanta, Detroit, New York, Chicago, Washington.

While the West has two powerhouse teams in GSW and SA and still a solid OKC team this coming year the East will be more competitive and stronger 4-11 than what will exist in the West. Some very good teams will miss the playoffs in the East.



I actually think it's a full blown free-for-all after Cleveland. And don't forget Orlando. By adding Vogel, having a legit big-man rotation at the 4-5 with Vuc, Ibaka and Biyombo, a couple 3-4's in Green and Gordon, three shooters in Fournier, Hezonja, and even Meeks, and two passable point guards in Payton and Augustine - the team could easily be in the playoff hunt if things break right for them (or break wrong for other teams).

Meanwhile, while Cleveland can even withstand a Lebron injury (for a while) and still be near the top, every other team seems to be very vulnerable to injury. Toronto without Lowry is done. Boston without Thomas, while not "done," becomes a borderline playoff team. Crowder is key for them, too. Atlanta without Schroeder... Washington without Beal really steps back. Ditto Wall, probably. Indiana without George.

And while Chicago has the talent & depth to withstand an injury to Butler or whomever, it's such a gamble that the pieces fit, and that Hoiberg can handle them. Similarly, New York could handle an injury - but the question is with normal wear/injuries, are the guys going to play well enough, and mesh quickly enough (though much better fitting pieces than Chicago).



It has become really sexy to predict big things from Orlando.

Peyton and Augustin are probably the worst Guard combo in the NBA.
Augustin cannot run an offense, and is strictly a fast break guy.

The wing players for the Magic are just average NBA guys. Nothing special.

Ibaka is coming off a terrible season, and his producton has been decreased in each of the last 3 season. Is Ibaka the kind of guy Orlando is going to start running plays for and get him 19 attempts per game? Doubtful.

Biyombo put up virtually identical numbers 2 years ago to what he did in Toronto, and nobody wanted him a year ago. His massive limitations mean he is best served as a role playing big - but the contract will make them want to start him and give him more minutes than he can handle. He's a shot blocker, a good rebounder, but a complete negative on offence.

BUT AARON CAN DUNK.

Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. They have one shooter in their starting lineup. Unless Ibaka shooting his baseline 3 is part of the game plan.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#238 » by MGB8 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:16 pm

CoachD wrote:

It has become really sexy to predict big things from Orlando.

Peyton and Augustin are probably the worst Guard combo in the NBA.
Augustin cannot run an offense, and is strictly a fast break guy.

The wing players for the Magic are just average NBA guys. Nothing special.

Ibaka is coming off a terrible season, and his producton has been decreased in each of the last 3 season. Is Ibaka the kind of guy Orlando is going to start running plays for and get him 19 attempts per game? Doubtful.

Biyombo put up virtually identical numbers 2 years ago to what he did in Toronto, and nobody wanted him a year ago. His massive limitations mean he is best served as a role playing big - but the contract will make them want to start him and give him more minutes than he can handle. He's a shot blocker, a good rebounder, but a complete negative on offence.



I'm not particularly high on Payton, but the notion that Augustine can't run an offense is just false - coming from a Bulls fan who saw him run an offense pretty well under Thibs. The problem with Augustine is defense, not offense. On offense, he's passable.

As for starting lineup and shooting, it really depends on how Vogel wants to approach things.

He could easily start (or at least use as his most-frequent lineup):
pg: Payton
sg: Fournier
sf: Hezonja
pf: Ibaka
cc: Vucevic

That lineup has plenty of spacing, but is weak on defense. You could alleviate that a bit by swapping in Biyombo for Vuc - still not great perimeter defense, but at least the interior would be covered.

Or you could run:
pg: Augustine
sg: Fournier/Hezonja
sf: Green
pf: Ibaka
cc: Vucevic or Biyombo

Which reduces the defensive ability at point guard (Payton is ok, Augustine a liability) and also creation ability at point, but you increase your shooting via Augustine, and also your perimeter and team defense, generally, with Green.

Not sure how Gordon really fits - he should be a Blake Griffin style 4 - all this talk about playing him at the 3 is, IMO, a mistake.

Anyway - I didn't say that they would be a contender - I said that they "could be in the playoff hunt if things break right for them."
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#239 » by CoachD » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:13 pm

MGB8 wrote:
CoachD wrote:

It has become really sexy to predict big things from Orlando.

Peyton and Augustin are probably the worst Guard combo in the NBA.
Augustin cannot run an offense, and is strictly a fast break guy.

The wing players for the Magic are just average NBA guys. Nothing special.

Ibaka is coming off a terrible season, and his producton has been decreased in each of the last 3 season. Is Ibaka the kind of guy Orlando is going to start running plays for and get him 19 attempts per game? Doubtful.

Biyombo put up virtually identical numbers 2 years ago to what he did in Toronto, and nobody wanted him a year ago. His massive limitations mean he is best served as a role playing big - but the contract will make them want to start him and give him more minutes than he can handle. He's a shot blocker, a good rebounder, but a complete negative on offence.



I'm not particularly high on Payton, but the notion that Augustine can't run an offense is just false - coming from a Bulls fan who saw him run an offense pretty well under Thibs. The problem with Augustine is defense, not offense. On offense, he's passable.

As for starting lineup and shooting, it really depends on how Vogel wants to approach things.

He could easily start (or at least use as his most-frequent lineup):
pg: Payton
sg: Fournier
sf: Hezonja
pf: Ibaka
cc: Vucevic

That lineup has plenty of spacing, but is weak on defense. You could alleviate that a bit by swapping in Biyombo for Vuc - still not great perimeter defense, but at least the interior would be covered.

Or you could run:
pg: Augustine
sg: Fournier/Hezonja
sf: Green
pf: Ibaka
cc: Vucevic or Biyombo

Which reduces the defensive ability at point guard (Payton is ok, Augustine a liability) and also creation ability at point, but you increase your shooting via Augustine, and also your perimeter and team defense, generally, with Green.

Not sure how Gordon really fits - he should be a Blake Griffin style 4 - all this talk about playing him at the 3 is, IMO, a mistake.

Anyway - I didn't say that they would be a contender - I said that they "could be in the playoff hunt if things break right for them."



Can Augustine get into the half court and run vanilla sets? Sure. A high school kid can. Can we create, make good decisions and run complex sets? History says no.
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Re: New York number three seed in the east ? 

Post#240 » by jacoby1us » Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:04 pm

I would not be surprised to see NY in the Top 3-5 in the Eastern Conference. This is a contract year for Derrick Rose and he has already made it known at the beginning of last year that he was looking forward to this season. I believe NY will experience something special this year. They definitely earned it, and it will be nice to actually see a major market team have a presence in the post season.

I expect the Knicks to easily win 50 games this year with at least two All-Stars selected.
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