Mysterious backsliding of teams (Rockets/Bucks)

[OrangeBlueSkies]

While I felt this way all season, and same can be said for the Wizards who also took a huge step back, it's done and over now. James Harden is a ball-hog, bigger than I've ever seen before (Iverson included). Greg Monroe changes floor spacing and defensive presence, which makes a big difference in an actual NBA game.

[shangrila]

The Bucks had 2 issues. They lost a couple of vets, as people have said, but also continued using a switch heavy defence that both Monroe and Parker weren't equipped to execute. Their offensive rating was identical both years but their defensive dropped from 4th to 23rd.

Houston was tougher to predict but it's still no mystery. Harden went back to his no defence ways and that seemed to infect the entire team; their defensive rating, like Milwaukee, dropped significantly (8th to 21st). Combine that with losing production from guys like Montiejunas (injury) and Smith (sucked compared to his first season) and not getting much out of Ty Lawson and it's not hard to see why they flopped, though they did still underperform.

The Pelicans don't deserve to be on this list. Even with a couple of injury prone guys on their roster what they faced was excessive and unpredictable.

[jwise44]

Knight sucked for the Bucks, can't believe people are still running that nonsense. We went backwards because we traded away intelligent vets who spaced the floor for clowns that clogged the paint and hogged the ball. We'll be back on track this season assuming we offload Monroe and MCW.

This is actually a serious question, I know this is a hindsight is 20/20 thing

Now that Giannis is playing pg basically, wouldn't knight be a good "pg" next to him since he wouldn't be asked to be a playmaker and can space the floor?


Anyways rockets had to be chemistry, and taking Mchale to the guillotine for the slow start after 11 games was definitely the wrong move

[pr0wler]

yeah as others have pointed out, the Bucks slid because they let a number of solid veteran players go and replaced their minutes with kids. In the long-term that may work out great for them as their kids got to take on more significant roles, but losing quality veterans like that is going to hurt your record.

Rockets had internal issues involving their best players and Harden stopped playing defense at all which caused many of his teammates to give less effort as well. Add to that the Howard issues and firing their coach in a panic move at the start of the season and no one should have been surprised to see a decline particularly after that team over-achieved hte year before on the back of a near-historic offensive season out of Harden along with him trying defensively.

Definitely. Harden's defense really wasn't that bad his MVP season, and despite having many injuries the Rockets still won 56 games. Though keep in mind their expected W/L was only 50 games, all the breaks went their way including post season versus the Clippers. Hey sometimes teams have things go their way throughout the season.

The following season, issues crept up in the locker room like you mentioned, combine that with terrible coaching (McHale replaced by JBB) and losing a lot of close games....suddenly things are much different. Expected wins was 42, however, so yes technically they won 15 games fewer in 2015-2016 but as far as analytics go it was really 8 losses less which is a lot easier to explain than a huge double digit drop off.

[Prez]

Knight sucked for the Bucks, can't believe people are still running that nonsense. We went backwards because we traded away intelligent vets who spaced the floor for clowns that clogged the paint and hogged the ball. We'll be back on track this season assuming we offload Monroe and MCW.

This is actually a serious question, I know this is a hindsight is 20/20 thing

Now that Giannis is playing pg basically, wouldn't knight be a good "pg" next to him since he wouldn't be asked to be a playmaker and can space the floor?

The problem with Knight is that he's in complete denial about his ability, he truly believes that he is a point guard through and through. He's a low IQ, delusional me-first pseudo-PG who isn't particularly good defensively either. Skill-wise, sure, he can shoot and handle some, but mentality wise he's an awful fit next to our core.

Delly might not be the raw talent that Knight is but he's a 10x better fit next to Giannis as that second guard. 40%+ 3PT shooter, terrific defender, good decision maker/high BBIQ, does all the dirty work, and when needed he can bring the ball up and run PnR as a complementary playmaker.

[MoneyMo]

Rockets won an abnormal amount of close game the previous season. They regressed to the mean and then some.

[AussieBuck]

Knight sucked for the Bucks, can't believe people are still running that nonsense. We went backwards because we traded away intelligent vets who spaced the floor for clowns that clogged the paint and hogged the ball. We'll be back on track this season assuming we offload Monroe and MCW.

This is actually a serious question, I know this is a hindsight is 20/20 thing

Now that Giannis is playing pg basically, wouldn't knight be a good "pg" next to him since he wouldn't be asked to be a playmaker and can space the floor?


Anyways rockets had to be chemistry, and taking Mchale to the guillotine for the slow start after 11 games was definitely the wrong move

Already answered but yeah Knight works in theory but he still needs a few hits with the reality stick before he's ready to the role player his talent dictates. Even still though he isn't a very high IQ on court guy so he's always going to be behind the 8 ball defensively. I'm more than happy with what Delly brings, just need another dude to fill out the remaining minutes.

[M4P]

The Rockets' demise was a culmination of a lack of discipline from both the players and coaching staff, along with a recovering, post-knee surgery Dwight. Harden came to camp out of shape and with a IDGAF attitude after landing that massive Adidas deal, Motie had major back surgery, and Dwight had knee surgery that he never really recovered from. Lawson was also a failure (although he wasn't really given a fair shot in my opinion).

[Southpaw]

I'd throw the Pelicans into that group also. Astounding that they fell so much.

I disagree with the Pelicans because their fall is easier to explain. Their top players are always injured.

[ThumbsUpBaby]

Rockets falling off will probably be considered a mystery for the rest of our lives. One thing comes to mind and it may have to do with what's been happening in the locker room.

[qm22]

For the Rockets, Kevin McHale was not a good coach. Two big injuries to key rotation players in D-mo and jones. Dwight Howard is soft. Team relied way too much on the 3. Very Little defensive effort through out the year. Ty Lawson experiment failed miserably. James couldn't do it alone.
If this team can stay healthy I expect a much better season from Houston and a chance to play for home court advantage in the playoffs.

The question was why they slid. If McHale was their coach before and (barely) coach during the slide, how can it be a factor?
What exactly is meant by "soft"?

[KiDdFrESh]

For the Rockets, Kevin McHale was not a good coach. Two big injuries to key rotation players in D-mo and jones. Dwight Howard is soft. Team relied way too much on the 3. Very Little defensive effort through out the year. Ty Lawson experiment failed miserably. James couldn't do it alone.
If this team can stay healthy I expect a much better season from Houston and a chance to play for home court advantage in the playoffs.

The question was why they slid. If McHale was their coach before and (barely) coach during the slide, how can it be a factor?
What exactly is meant by "soft"?

I just said why they slid. McHale was a factor because he couldn't manage the egos anymore, he didn't make adjustments. We started off poorly and he got canned at the beginning of the season. Took us damn near all season to dig ourselves out of that hole.

Dwight has all the physical tools to dominate the league. He lacks killer instinct. He lets people punk him. He's weak mentally. He lets other people take him out the game. Seems like he has no confidence in his abilities or his game. When we were losing a game and he was on the sideline, he'd be playing around and not giving a f*ck. instead of trying to rally the team. He doesn't care. That's why I think he's soft. I'm glad he's gone. Such a huge dissapointment. Addition by subtraction. Good riddance!

[Freefloater]

this only goes to show that we dont know the truth only naratives

[PopAGat]

Greg Monroe really set that team back. Not single handedly but a big reason.

[flow]

Bucks slide isn't mysterious. They've shot themselves in the foot with a series of ill-conceived moves, starting with the disastrous trade of Brandon Knight for MCW at the trade deadline in '14/15.

[Takingbaconback]

You can argue how Brandon Knight isn't a great or even good player but he's hell of a lot better than MCW

[Statlanta]

As mentioned, poor fit with Monroe in the middle coupled with all of the veteran leaders in the locker room leaving town. The kids needed to learn how to stand on their own feet and I think you see that beginning this season.

If I'm to take the RealGM tweet to truth it seems you guys currently have the youngest roster(YOUNGER than PHI??)in the league at 24.7 years of age. What do you and/or other Milwaukee fans think this bodes for going into next season with such a roster.

[AussieBuck]

You can argue how Brandon Knight isn't a great or even good player but he's hell of a lot better than MCW

Not really. Both guys sink their value below what it would theoretically would be by attempting to be far more than they are capable of.

[Doctor MJ]

-There was no reason the Rockets would fall back this year as D-Mo, Howard, and Patrick Bev were relatively healthier throughout the season. Harden was coming out of an MVP-quality year and the rotation that landed in the 2015 WCF was brought back with few changes.

-The Bucks were also seen as "Owning Their Future" last year with their fearless leader in Kidd, promising young prospects such as Greek, Jabari, and Middleton, and they looked to be a defensive powerhouse for years to come. Like the Rockets, they mostly brought back the needed pieces that pulled them to a surprise playoff seed.

What happened to both of these squads? Surely Ty Lawson or Greg Monroe couldn't have changed that much.

My thoughts?

Houston's prior success was built on a team spirit where everyone worked really damn hard on defense. You need great locker room morale to maintain that, and unfortunately Houston had Dwight Howard, who eventually kills every locker room he's in. I don't know if jettisoning Howard will fix it now, but it may.

Milwaukee's prior success was built on not having Greg Monroe, and they traded that to Detroit last year which allowed Detroit to improve. The good news is that at any given time 29 out of 30 teams don't have Greg Monroe, and many of them don't realize how much this is helping them, as such eventually Milwaukee will be able to trade for someone else's not-having-Monroe.

Okay that was mean. The reality is though that Monroe just hasn't given any indication thus far that he's good enough at what he does best for that to be the basis for his team's offense, and it's not worth that much having him if you can't let him do his thing. The Bucks had the additional issue that they were horrible at shooting, and an interior worker like Monroe will need those shooters for spacing. Of course, EVERY team needs shooters in this era so this is a bit like saying "Monroe struggled in Milwaukee because he didn't have great players carrying him to success despite his weaknesses in areas where big men actually thrive today."

[sunskerr]

My take:

-Monroe is an old fashioned big on offense but cannot play defense well. They need an upgrade here because this means this spot is a hole. The middle is probably the worst spot to be defensively weak.

-MCW isn't better than Knight. Whilst Milkwaukee fans are right about Knight being a poor point guard, MCW doesn't do this much better than Knight and is a worse scorer. Preferably you'd have an offball guy/2ndary ball handler who can shoot 3s next to Giannis at this position. Their 3 point shooting is worrisome with Giannis/Monroe as it is.

-Everything else is fine.

*As a Suns fan, I'd like to add that Brandon Knight's contract is an apparent bargain compared to what has been handed out this offseason. He as also been training with back court mates Bledsoe and Booker this summer, so us fans are hoping he is willing to take a step back when it comes to playmaking duties this season.