Why hasn't the international talent grown?

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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#361 » by har13 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:05 am

Pachinko_ wrote:Hari, do you agree with me that the quality of the teams in Europe 10-20 years ago was better than now?

100% :D
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#362 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:08 am

har13 wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:Hari, do you agree with me that the quality of the teams in Europe 10-20 years ago was better than now?

100% :D

thank god brother, I thought I was going nuts

do you remember the 1989-92 Jugoplastika (pop-84) by any chance?
dont you think they would easily beat any of those scrubs in last year's final-4?
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#363 » by har13 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:24 am

Pachinko_ wrote:
har13 wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:Hari, do you agree with me that the quality of the teams in Europe 10-20 years ago was better than now?

100% :D

thank god brother, I thought I was going nuts

do you remember the 1989-92 Jugoplastika (pop-84) by any chance?
dont you think they would easily beat any of those scrubs in last year's final-4?

of course they would(we speak about basketball talent ),the first game i remember well is Pana vs Aris in 1984 (kerkira :D )..you remember every thursday..kai si Giannaki partou tas miala kai si Gali partus to kefali..ohhh i forgot you are a Paok fan :lol: :lol: 8-)
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#364 » by TheTrooper » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:24 am

Pachinko_ wrote:
har13 wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:Hari, do you agree with me that the quality of the teams in Europe 10-20 years ago was better than now?

100% :D

thank god brother, I thought I was going nuts

do you remember the 1989-92 Jugoplastika (pop-84) by any chance?
dont you think they would easily beat any of those scrubs in last year's final-4?

In the 90's NBA teams won all 15 games against Euroleague teams.

In the 2000's European teams won 5 out of 37 games.

In the 2010's European teams won 7 out of 26 games.

Those teams were more top heavy, but not better overall. Also there is this romanticized version of the past that everyone wants to remember. Looking at things with pink glasses.

Im not saying that the Euroleague is better now, but it's certainly not worse than it was.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#365 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:30 am

have you watched that Jugoplastika team play at all? I think there's a couple of youtubes somewhere

every single player with significant minutes on that team went ahead to become a leader either in the NBA or in top European teams
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#366 » by Mobby » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:41 am

Little Digger wrote:If Porzingas can stay healthy, he's got a chance at becoming the best player in the world..He's a great GREAT talent with tons of competitive desire and he's a great kid..problem is ..Ive never seen a 7'3 or above player ever come close to staying healthy.


About the injury point, it's true, but have you ever seen a 7'3'' or above player who is as light on his feet as Porzingis is?

Even with Yao, who was incredibly agile for his size, it seemed like his feet somewhat plodded as he ran. Porzingis holds himself like a taller Durant.

I think that alone will help keep him away from a number of lower-body injuries, which is what usually destroys big men (that and the back).
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#367 » by har13 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:42 am

TheTrooper wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:
har13 wrote:100% :D

thank god brother, I thought I was going nuts

do you remember the 1989-92 Jugoplastika (pop-84) by any chance?
dont you think they would easily beat any of those scrubs in last year's final-4?

In the 90's NBA teams won all 15 games against Euroleague teams.

In the 2000's European teams won 5 out of 37 games.

In the 2010's European teams won 7 out of 26 games.

Those teams were more top heavy, but not better overall. Also there is this romanticized version of the past that everyone wants to remember. Looking at things with pink glasses.

Im not saying that the Euroleague is better now, but it's certainly not worse than it was.

he said tha last 10-20 years,in 80-90s teams could use only 1 or 2 non domestic players,and sorry but if you believe Alba for example is a good team because they won a friendly match against an Nba team we disagree :D
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#368 » by djw » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:53 am

UcanUwill wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:What sort of passports do those Americans have? I said before that Americans are restricted by paperwork, some actually get the right paperwork over time, but few Americans are born with the correct paperwork like dual citizenship in a Bosman country. If you look at the Euroleague team rosters, they always have 5 or so players native to the country the team is located in. That's a welfare like set aside system that is being run. This Euro League team in Germany named Brose Bamberg has 1 American and 7 Germans. There have probably never been 7 Germans in the history of the NBA, but there are 7 on the roster of a German Euro League team at one time? :roll:


Team like Bamberg simply can't afford a better roster. And when you assembling a team, and you can only afford mediocre talent, you might as well do it with domestics. If there weren't that level German players, you would see internationals. But there are, so here you go. If you suggesting, that Bamberg can afford a better team, but is restricted by that rule you can't stop talking about, its simply not true, its an absolutely absurd idea. We already talked about this, it's novelty for the most part, teams do not buy Internationals to be bench warmers, when they can just buy domestics.
We still have examples where domestic talent is not good enough. Russia and Israel for example. Maccabi and CSKA is filled with Internationals, because they don't have good domestic options. Bamberg would do too if it had that budget.

First time I hear paperwork is the problem for American basketball player to get an Euro job.

Let me jump in here as I was born in Bamberg and would consider myself quite knowledgable of the German league as well as Euroleague.

German BBL has a restriction that states that there are only 6 non-German players allowed to be active for a game but not for the roster in general. If you would look closer, besides this one American you would find players from France, Latvia, Italy, Belarus, Greece, Croatia and Slovenia on the roster.

Euroleague doesn't have any restriction regarding the amount of "foreigner" (what is considered a foreigner in an Euroleague context). If Bamberg wanted to, they could sign 12 US-Americans and play Euroleague competition with them. However, teams have to weight in domestic talent and foreign talent within their budget planning.

Bamberg could have very well signed another 7 Americans instead of the other non-Germans. Americans would even be cheaper for them as the contracts the D-League are (or at least were, I think they made changes here) cheap and I would assume each Bamberg international makes more money a month than D-Leaguers make in a year (besides those assigned to the D-League from the NBA). However, there just aren't D-League players available that are considerd better than the non-Germans on Bamberg's roster (by Bamberg's coach and scouting staff).

Also, (top) Euroleague teams are not willing to wait for players that want to try out in the NBA and sign unguaranteed training camp contracts over Euroleague contracts. Even if one or the other were better than the ones on the Euroleage team's roster, you cannot risk getting this player well after competition started - if you even get the player. Worst case you lose your first few games and are left with inferior players than the one you wanted to have or the ones you could have signed earlier during the summer.

Oh, and another reason you can find so many local players in the roster is that there is very seldomly a restriction on how many players you can have on a roster and teams fill up the roster with talents from their youth teams. In Europe, teams don't have High Schools and College programs developing players for them. They have to do it themselves even though only few of the talents ever see regular playing time on the team.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#369 » by TheTrooper » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:57 am

Pachinko_ wrote:have you watched that Jugoplastika team play at all? I think there's a couple of youtubes somewhere

every single player with significant minutes on that team went ahead to become a leader either in the NBA or in top European teams

That is why Jugoplastika was an undisputed champion for 3 years. Probably the most dominant European team ever. They are exception in basketball.

The fact remains that Euroleague despite all it's biggest starts going to the NBA more then ever is still as competitive and the overall quality is more or less the same. That shows how much has international talent grown. The average Euroleague player (not the top 10-20 players) is now better then he was in the past. Especially their level of athleticism.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#370 » by TheTrooper » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:58 am

har13 wrote:
TheTrooper wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:thank god brother, I thought I was going nuts

do you remember the 1989-92 Jugoplastika (pop-84) by any chance?
dont you think they would easily beat any of those scrubs in last year's final-4?

In the 90's NBA teams won all 15 games against Euroleague teams.

In the 2000's European teams won 5 out of 37 games.

In the 2010's European teams won 7 out of 26 games.

Those teams were more top heavy, but not better overall. Also there is this romanticized version of the past that everyone wants to remember. Looking at things with pink glasses.

Im not saying that the Euroleague is better now, but it's certainly not worse than it was.

he said tha last 10-20 years,in 80-90s teams could use only 1 or 2 non domestic players,and sorry but if you believe Alba for example is a good team because they won a friendly match against an Nba team we disagree :D

90's and 2000's are in the time span of the last 10-20 years. Do the math :D
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#371 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:01 pm

Ι guess, to clarify:
scrubs are probably better now, they work out better.
but any way you look at it, they're still scrubs (or low-mid talent players)

there's little to no superstars left in Europe, because:
a) the difference in money between Europe and NBA has become too great
b) americans have more confidence signing up euros on top dollar contracts, even from a much younger age

there's about zero chance you will ever see again a Manu playing in Europe (he played until he was 25) or a Drazen (also played in Europe until he was 25) or a Kukoc (also in Europe until 25)

Basically, any player who can have an impact in the NBA is now gone way before that.
These guys mattered. You cant just lose your superstars and claim it has no impact on quality.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#372 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:08 pm

djw wrote:Euroleague doesn't have any restriction regarding the amount of "foreigner" (what is considered a foreigner in an Euroleague context).

Euroleague doesnt, but many national basketball federations within Europe do.
I posted a list a few posts back
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#373 » by har13 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:34 pm

TheTrooper wrote:
har13 wrote:
TheTrooper wrote:In the 90's NBA teams won all 15 games against Euroleague teams.

In the 2000's European teams won 5 out of 37 games.

In the 2010's European teams won 7 out of 26 games.

Those teams were more top heavy, but not better overall. Also there is this romanticized version of the past that everyone wants to remember. Looking at things with pink glasses.

Im not saying that the Euroleague is better now, but it's certainly not worse than it was.

he said tha last 10-20 years,in 80-90s teams could use only 1 or 2 non domestic players,and sorry but if you believe Alba for example is a good team because they won a friendly match against an Nba team we disagree :D

90's and 2000's are in the time span of the last 10-20 years. Do the math :D

i know,i'm very good in maths :D ,2000-2013 teams were much better i believe and even in 90s the best players were much better than this era best players,the difference is now the scrubs are better because you can play with many average Americans players who are much better than average local players :D
i hope you understood because my english sucks :oops:
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#374 » by djw » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:39 pm

Pachinko_ wrote:
djw wrote:Euroleague doesn't have any restriction regarding the amount of "foreigner" (what is considered a foreigner in an Euroleague context).

Euroleague doesnt, but many national basketball federations within Europe do.
I posted a list a few posts back

I know. Yet, most Euroleague teams do sign players for Euroleague only or to give them a rest during domestic competition. Therefore, teams have to weight between Euroleague sucess and domestic success. But this is not per se a restriction on how many internationals a team decides to sign.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#375 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:49 pm

oh ok, I see what you mean
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#376 » by Mirotic12 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:14 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:The first two ever Euro League MVP's were won by an American player by the name of Anthony Parker. No US player has ever won a Euro League MVP again. There are players at the top of the D League, the bottom of NBA rosters, and in other non NBA leagues that could win the Euro League MVP if it were simpler to qualify for roster spots. I believe that Jimmer Fredette would win Euro league MVP. A guy like Nik Stauskas would contend for it as well. A guy like Channing Frye would rule the Euro League!


Once again, you forgot to use the green font.

SelfishPlayer wrote:I believe that it's a lie that D league players are there waiting for their NBA opportunity. I believe that they are there waiting for a pro opportunity. How many D League players have you heard turn down a contract from a Euroleague team in order to wait around for an NBA 10 day contract? I believe that Euro League contracts would be more plentiful for top D League players if those Euro league rosters didn't have restrictions on the type and number of foreign players. Top D League players take contracts to play in places like Australia and Venezuela all of the time. Why? It's because of the roster restrictions. It limits the talent of the European leagues. These US players have to jump through hoops to get on these rosters as anything other than like 2 slots reserved for foreigners with the qualifications the average US citizen has. That's not enough.


It has been factually proven in this thread that this fake claim of yours is UNTRUE. Every single EuroLeague team has more than 2 foreign players on it. Almost every single EuroLeague team has more than 2 Americans on it.

Please stop posting this UNTRUE claim of yours. Now you are clearly without any doubt just trolling, and doing so without any question on purpose.

Pachinko_ wrote:there are different limits in different countries
I know Greece currently allows max 6 foreign players (but only up to 4 can be from non-EU countries)
Theres a list here, a bit outdated though:
http://www.interbasket.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-13784.html


Wrong on Greek League. Greek League allows every team to have 6 Americans, and more than that, if they are of Greek descent.

Greek EuroLeague team Panathinaikos currently has 7 Americans (2 of them Greek Americans), and already announced that they are still going to sign another American player (no Greek descent). So that means Greek club Panathinaikos will have 8 Americans on its roster.

Again, a far cry from the "maximum of 2 Americans" claim of SelfishPlayer, or even the "maximum of 2 foreign players" he is claiming.

TheTrooper wrote:In the 90's NBA teams won all 15 games against Euroleague teams.

In the 2000's European teams won 5 out of 37 games.

In the 2010's European teams won 7 out of 26 games.

Those teams were more top heavy, but not better overall. Also there is this romanticized version of the past that everyone wants to remember. Looking at things with pink glasses.

Im not saying that the Euroleague is better now, but it's certainly not worse than it was.


Don't waste your time mate. These guys claiming EuroLeague was better 20-30 years ago, when literally only a handful of teams even knew what defense was, when hardly any players had athletic ability, and when teams often had local players that were amateur level, or that EuroLeague was better 10-12 years ago, when the biggest budgets in Europe were $15 million (almost every EuroLeague team has a bigger budget than that now, as do several 2nd tier EuroCup teams).....

it is incredibly OBVIOUS that they only watch the NBA, and have never followed the EuroLeague, or at least certainly have not seen a EuroLeague game in the last 10 years. It's a waste of time here even discussing with people that only watch NBA games about the quality of EuroLeague.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#377 » by SelfishPlayer » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:43 pm

Mirotic12 never produces what passports these "Americans" have. We know they are Americans, but we do not know how they count against the rosters. Do they count against the rosters as Americans, or do they count against the roster as a passport carrier of an EU/Bosman nation? There are some American players that took the time to get second passports. They do not count against foreign rosters in the 2 roster spots set aside for players that have similar passports to Americans ie. Non EU/Non Bosman nations.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#378 » by Tukkerwolf » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:05 pm

jptremblay wrote:Some of you are understimating the popularity of Basketball outside the US. I'm sure that if we make a global poll, after soccer, basketball will be the 2nd most popular sport.


I would be greatly surprised if this is true, but that might be my narrow-minded Northern European look on it (in the Netherlands basketball isnt even a top 20 sport). Is there any quick data available on this? And then offcourse excluding the USA. Perhaps China alone acounts far half of the basketball-players in the World, I have no idea. :lol:
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#379 » by har13 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:08 pm

1)until now Greek teams can play with 6 non Greeks players ,only 4 of them not from EU,after january that will change and all of them can be non EU players,isn't that true?if they are Greek Americans like Calathes or Greek something of course they can play,are you crazy?
Pana will play in Greek league until then with 4 not Greek players isn't that true?(as a Euroleague you are a Pana fan but you hate your team because we win with the refs,Spanoulis is a God and Diamantidis an average player :) )
3)How many teams can pay 15m or better how many teams can pay more than 2m for one contract?(i'm not saying 2 or 3 contracts because then we speak about 4,5 teams or less),10 years ago 2m contract was good for an Nba player now is only for the last player in the roster.
4)Do you remember the players in 90s and after? Payers like Galis,Giannakis, Kukoc,Drazen,Sabonis,Paspalie,Manu,sex dopa dejan bodiroga :) ,Peja,Oscar,Saras,Pecovic,Divac,Scola and many many more(i'm not speaking for american players played here..just one name Dominique),now they draft the best players from the start.
We speak about basketball talent not training and coaching.
I don't believe you need 197 IQ to know that now with that salary cup all the good players will go to Nba.. :)
sorry for my english and bb.
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Re: Why hasn't the international talent grown? 

Post#380 » by UcanUwill » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:51 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:Mirotic12 never produces what passports these "Americans" have. We know they are Americans, but we do not know how they count against the rosters. Do they count against the rosters as Americans, or do they count against the roster as a passport carrier of an EU/Bosman nation? There are some American players that took the time to get second passports. They do not count against foreign rosters in the 2 roster spots set aside for players that have similar passports to Americans ie. Non EU/Non Bosman nations.


Man you just keep holding on that 2 roster spot idea, even if it was proven wrong multiple times now. You are the most stubborn troll ever. Its paperwork and duel passports now... There Americans arent even real Americans now.

Domestic promotional rules vary from league to league. Often, its not even a foreign player limit, but domestic player floor, or the rule to have domestic player on the floor (like in israel). It's been stated that Euroleague itself has no restrictions whatsoever, you can sign whoever you want. But when this was established, so now make up another excuse, paperwork... I guess its just a matter of times when you'll bring Flying saucers into this all.

Best non NBA Americans all play in Europe or China right now, its a reality (K. Hynes, A. Goudeleock, Quincy Miller, P. Young, S. Weems, J. Diebler, B. Dunston, J. Crawford, J. Fredette, Derrick Brown, T. Honneycutt, J. Augustine, J. Dorsey, T. Rice, J. Dentmon, S. Larkin, Mike James, J Gist, A. Randolph, J. Carrol, J. Cunningham, K. Langford, M. Brooks, B. Brown, C. SIngleton, etc). International teams buy out best D league players every year, its a fact. D league is a scene for not yet pro players to showcase themselves and get a pro job, its nothing more than that.

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