Demar derozan has been balling

Moderators: bwgood77, DayofMourning, Capn'O, Dirk, KF10, GimmeDat, Knickstape1214, BombsquadSammy, Tarik Black, Slava, CoreyGallagher, magnumt, ken6199, Rhettmatic, Duke4life831, Yuri Vaultin, Mr. E

User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#521 » by Kabookalu » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:31 am

WESCO wrote:I just don't feel like their iso heavy style is going to get them past Clevland.


There’s this misconception that our offensive system is deliberately geared towards ISO play. It really isn’t, it’s just that the way this team is constructed it’s evolved that way. And many will think the culprit will be DeRozan. He could do better, but I won’t consider him the main culprit. It’s our big men. We run a pick and roll heavy system. The majority of ball movement is generated in the middle by whatever means, either by kick and drive, drawing defenders in the post, etc. When you run a pick and roll heavy system the onus is then on the pick and roll recipient to make plays and reads. The Clippers run a pick and roll heavy offense too, but their ball movement is beautiful. That’s because they have one of the best passing PFs in the game.

Right now if it’s not a DeRozan or Lowry post up, our big men, namely Valanciunas, are the ones occupying the middle. Valanciunas is not a good passer. Patterson used to be better, but like his jumpshot, his passing has been declining. Siakam and Poeltl, they’re rookies, can’t expect anything out of them. We’re getting absolutely nothing out of that middle area that would lead to great ball movement.

Not to say DeRozan can’t be better. He struggles a lot with passing out of high pressure situations and prefers throwing up bad shots (that he’s been making) instead of passing it out. Though I believe that even if DeMar improved his passing, we’d still struggle with ball movement if Jonas keeps pumpfaking the ball to death.

And I’m not one of those Raptors fans that will quickly discard a player because a player isn’t doing something right. I know Jonas can pass out of these situations. I don’t expect Bogut level court vision, but he’s capable of even being a Vucevic level respectable passer. He just…doesn’t. When/if he ever finds his passing groove he’s going to make our offense a lot more bearable to watch.
Image
User avatar
jackwindham
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,685
And1: 731
Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#522 » by jackwindham » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:40 am

Should the Raptors remove Valanciunas from the starting lineup then?
User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#523 » by Kabookalu » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:46 am

jackwindham wrote:Should the Raptors remove Valanciunas from the starting lineup then?


The alternatives aren’t that good either. Bebe has the strength of a small forward. He gets bullied way too much in the post, which is why we’ve been getting slaughtered on the boards whenever he plays. Poeltl, same reason. Jonas is our strongest center, he’s the only big man we have (other than Sullinger) who knows how to battle for space down low, and he sets the best screens.

If Jonas can just stop avoiding shooting jumpshots and learning how to find the open man, he’s the perfect center for us. I know we struggle with finding the roll man in the pick and roll, but in most situations it’ll result in a pop anyways. Jonas refuses to shoot, and he’s not a good passer, so in the pick and roll/pop, most of our action is one sided with the ballhandler doing most of the scoring or playmaking. If Blake Griffin just outright refused to shoot jumpers on the pop I think the Clippers’ offense takes a big hit.
Image
KnightofHyrule
Pro Prospect
Posts: 800
And1: 1,041
Joined: Mar 16, 2014
   

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#524 » by KnightofHyrule » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:54 am

EVERYBODY ABOUT RAPTORS OFFENSE

Again, it's missing open shots. It's not about iso play, its not about bigs....its just missing open shots. And yes, there are plenty of them. Lowry, Patterson, Ross, and Carroll all struggled to do so in the playoffs, much to my frustration. If two of those four can hit open shots with consistency, we can stay in the game with Cleveland and Golden State offensively. If all four do so, Raptors could win an NBA championship.

Iso play is criticized when players don't get open shots. Raptors get plenty of them, because of their offense is predicated on dribble-drive penetration, with is a credible offensive strategy with the right pieces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dribble_drive_motion

"Offensive players are spread in the half court, so that helping on dribble penetration or skips becomes difficult for the defense, because the help will leave an offensive player open without any defenders near him. As an example a guard (DeRozan, Lowry, Joseph, and Powell) can drive through the defensive gaps for a layup or dunk, or pass out to the perimeter if the defense collapses onto him."

This is why Raptors have a top 5 offense right now. But as bolded, the perimeter players (Patterson, Carroll, Ross, and Lowry when he plays the 2) need to hit open shots.

So even if Raptors pass a thousand times, if players aren't hitting open shots, then it doesn't matter.


......But as I consistently tell people, the REAL problem is on the other side of the court. It's the Raptors inability to get stops. Cleveland ran the same exact play so many times in Games 4-6 with success. How does this happen? The Raptors act like they are this big time defensive team, but they aren't, and Doc Rivers booked it couple of years ago LOL:

“It’s like a mirage, (the Raptors) are telling everyone from last year that they are this big, physical, defensive team. And then when you play them they run you to death and they score in the 100s.

“They are the second team in the NBA offensively, but if you ask your players or anyone, ‘Tell me about Toronto,’ the first thing they say is physical, pound you defensively. I don’t know how they are getting away with this.” - Doc Rivers, BEFORE Toronto dropped 110 points on the Clippers.


Raptors are weak defensively, and teams have booked this now. However, media and fans (and apparently, RealGM) haven't, which is why everyone scratches their heads and wonder why Raptors are currently the 4th best offense, and make claims that it isn't sustainable in the playoffs.

This offense, which also limits turnovers, can be extremely successful in the playoffs. The shooters just needs to hit open shots, and the defense needs to get stops consistently.
Thanks for ruining everything, KD....
Image
Purdydrup
Sophomore
Posts: 152
And1: 139
Joined: Dec 22, 2013

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#525 » by Purdydrup » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:59 am

This guy is averaging 33/3.4/5 with almost 2 steals a game. An absolute monster so far. Haters gonna hate. This guy deserves way more recognition than he is getting. I have never seen a more humble NBA player. DEMAR FOR PRIME MINISTER.
User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#526 » by Kabookalu » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:23 am

KnightofHyrule wrote:Again, it's missing open shots. It's not about iso play, its not about bigs....its just missing open shots. And yes, there are plenty of them.


We're the 8th lowest in 3 point attempts. We lead the league in shots when we attempt one with the defender 2-4ft away from the shooter, and we're 3rd last in wide open shot attempts. With that said having DeRozan on the team, who attempts an absurd amount of contested shots, and represents a good chunk of our attempts, does skew things.

Surprisingly though we're 11th in FG% in wide open shots, a hair above the Cavaliers. I don't disagree that making open shots is a problem, but we're not that bad, and we have a tough time generating good looks in the first place.
Image
User avatar
Wargreymon
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,432
And1: 1,997
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
   

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#527 » by Wargreymon » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:28 am

Purdydrup wrote:This guy is averaging 33/3.4/5 with almost 2 steals a game. An absolute monster so far. Haters gonna hate. This guy deserves way more recognition than he is getting. I have never seen a more humble NBA player. DEMAR FOR PRIME MINISTER.

To be honest I'm pretty sure he is getting alot of recognition. NBA.com has promoted him on their youtube channel and on the main website with a few articles. He won Eastern conference player of the week. NBA TV has spoken about him a lot being the league's leading scorer. Coaches rave about him (Coach K/Stan Van Gundy etc.) and DD's peers (KD/Draymond etc.) give him props. ESPN commentators like Hubie have showered him with praise. If anything Kemba Walker needs more recognition than he is getting. Statistically the best PG in the East with a Top 3 record and I haven't heard a word from the media. :nonono:
Image
Purdydrup
Sophomore
Posts: 152
And1: 139
Joined: Dec 22, 2013

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#528 » by Purdydrup » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:03 am

Wargreymon wrote:
Purdydrup wrote:This guy is averaging 33/3.4/5 with almost 2 steals a game. An absolute monster so far. Haters gonna hate. This guy deserves way more recognition than he is getting. I have never seen a more humble NBA player. DEMAR FOR PRIME MINISTER.

To be honest I'm pretty sure he is getting alot of recognition. NBA.com has promoted him on their youtube channel and on the main website with a few articles. He won Eastern conference player of the week. NBA TV has spoken about him a lot being the league's leading scorer. Coaches rave about him (Coach K/Stan Van Gundy etc.) and DD's peers (KD/Draymond etc.) give him props. ESPN commentators like Hubie have showered him with praise. If anything Kemba Walker needs more recognition than he is getting. Statistically the best PG in the East with a Top 3 record and I haven't heard a word from the media. :nonono:


Not cool bro.
KnightofHyrule
Pro Prospect
Posts: 800
And1: 1,041
Joined: Mar 16, 2014
   

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#529 » by KnightofHyrule » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:46 am

Choker wrote:
KnightofHyrule wrote:Again, it's missing open shots. It's not about iso play, its not about bigs....its just missing open shots. And yes, there are plenty of them.


We're the 8th lowest in 3 point attempts. We lead the league in shots when we attempt one with the defender 2-4ft away from the shooter, and we're 3rd last in wide open shot attempts. With that said having DeRozan on the team, who attempts an absurd amount of contested shots, and represents a good chunk of our attempts, does skew things.

Surprisingly though we're 11th in FG% in wide open shots, a hair above the Cavaliers. I don't disagree that making open shots is a problem, but we're not that bad, and we have a tough time generating good looks in the first place.

DeRozan skews almost everything here. But its no secret that Patterson, Ross, Carroll and Lowry struggled to hit open shots during the playoffs (though more of Ross' shots were contested).

My concern is, their defense is non-existent. THIS is what should be talking about. Again, 5th ranked offense. Raptors can move the ball all they want. They can even hit open shots too. But with a defense like this, you can't beat Cleveland or Golden State. You can't outscore Cleveland and Golden State like how you can outscore the other 27 teams. You need defense.
Thanks for ruining everything, KD....
Image
User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#530 » by Kabookalu » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:00 am

KnightofHyrule wrote:DeRozan skews almost everything here. But its no secret that Patterson, Ross, Carroll and Lowry struggled to hit open shots during the playoffs (though more of Ross' shots were contested).


We're 11th in the league in FG% in open shots. Again, we're not the best at making open shots, but we're not that bad. The problem is the lack of volume of open shots we get. Being Raptors fans we see so few open shots, that the ones we miss really hurt. Having a big man that can draw defenses in and pass it out would free up a lot more of these open shots.
Image
User avatar
Johnny Bball
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,271
And1: 3,580
Joined: Feb 01, 2015
   

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#531 » by Johnny Bball » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:40 pm

The raptors are 7th in the league in FGA from an ISO. Raptors are also 7th in the league in point per possession of an ISO. Seems like they are right where they should be. I think many people see an ISO when it's a screen and roll.
The_Hater
RealGM
Posts: 54,670
And1: 9,757
Joined: May 23, 2001
     

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#532 » by The_Hater » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:51 pm

Choker wrote:
WESCO wrote:I just don't feel like their iso heavy style is going to get them past Clevland.


There’s this misconception that our offensive system is deliberately geared towards ISO play. It really isn’t, it’s just that the way this team is constructed it’s evolved that way. And many will think the culprit will be DeRozan. He could do better, but I won’t consider him the main culprit. It’s our big men. We run a pick and roll heavy system.


I don't really agree with your conclusion choker. When Demar has the ball it starts with a pick and roll but generally ends with an ISO. He rarely passes the ball to the roll man and generally only kicks to shooters when his drive/shoot options have been exhusted.

Blaming the bigs who are rolling to the hoop when the pass never comes isn't fair. Lowry finds JV and Bebe plenty when he runs the PnR. They both have good hands and both are excellent finishers around the rim. And blaming teammates when the ball is in Demars hands on probably 60% of our offensive possessions during a game doesn't make much sense either.

Right now this isn't a problem as Demar has been highly efficient with his mid range game and seems to have found another level. Other times this has been a huge problem when opposing defenses load up against him and he still forces his own offence. Such as in the playoffs the last 3 seasons.
I don't want to say we're dysfunctional. But we need to be more functional.
KnightofHyrule
Pro Prospect
Posts: 800
And1: 1,041
Joined: Mar 16, 2014
   

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#533 » by KnightofHyrule » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:23 pm

Choker wrote:
KnightofHyrule wrote:DeRozan skews almost everything here. But its no secret that Patterson, Ross, Carroll and Lowry struggled to hit open shots during the playoffs (though more of Ross' shots were contested).


We're 11th in the league in FG% in open shots. Again, we're not the best at making open shots, but we're not that bad. The problem is the lack of volume of open shots we get. Being Raptors fans we see so few open shots, that the ones we miss really hurt. Having a big man that can draw defenses in and pass it out would free up a lot more of these open shots.

Raptors are not trying to be "not that bad". Raptors are trying to win an NBA Championship. Raptors are below Golden State and Cleveland when it comes to uncontested FG%. Patterson is shooting 21.5% on open 3pt shots. Really? He's taking 4.25 open shots per game, and making slightly less than 1 per game. That's unacceptable. That's 1 out of every 5 open shots. How do you expect to win a championship like that? Carroll is shooting less than 30% on open shots as well.

Again, "not that bad" isn't the goal here. Either:
1) Raptors need to be GREAT hitting open shots, or
2) Bolding for emphasis, Raptors defense needs to be better!

The offense is 5th ranked, and, as the title of the thread says, DeMar DeRozan has been balling. But their defense is suspect...especially with Lowry and Ross consistently flying at defenders instead of staying on the ground, JV looking lost, and eMar eRozan having no D.
Thanks for ruining everything, KD....
Image
User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#534 » by Kabookalu » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:00 am

The_Hater wrote:
Choker wrote:
WESCO wrote:I just don't feel like their iso heavy style is going to get them past Clevland.


There’s this misconception that our offensive system is deliberately geared towards ISO play. It really isn’t, it’s just that the way this team is constructed it’s evolved that way. And many will think the culprit will be DeRozan. He could do better, but I won’t consider him the main culprit. It’s our big men. We run a pick and roll heavy system.


I don't really agree with your conclusion choker. When Demar has the ball it starts with a pick and roll but generally ends with an ISO. He rarely passes the ball to the roll man and generally only kicks to shooters when his drive/shoot options have been exhusted.

Blaming the bigs who are rolling to the hoop when the pass never comes isn't fair. Lowry finds JV and Bebe plenty when he runs the PnR. They both have good hands and both are excellent finishers around the rim. And blaming teammates when the ball is in Demars hands on probably 60% of our offensive possessions during a game doesn't make much sense either.

Right now this isn't a problem as Demar has been highly efficient with his mid range game and seems to have found another level. Other times this has been a huge problem when opposing defenses load up against him and he still forces his own offence. Such as in the playoffs the last 3 seasons.


We've always been one of the league leaders in pick and roll plays. This year we're second. Not every single one of those pick and roll plays results in a DeMar shot attempt. And even if it's not a roll, we run a lot of pick and pops too, which is more plentiful than finding big men on the roll anyways. DeMar isn't as good at finding big men on the roll, which is okay, because he's more than good at finding big men on the pop. Just like Curry. You don't see Curry hooking up his big men on the roll for an alley oop too often. What they run though is a high pick and roll with Green a lot, it's a lot safer and requires less skill to find the roll man compared to a traditional one ran within the 3 point line. A couple seasons ago they ran a lot of pick and pop with Green flashing over at the top of the 3 point line.

Whenever DeMar finds Jonas on the pop, Jonas wastes the possession away by pumpfaking and passing it back out to reset the possession. DeMar has found Siakam a couple times on the pop who went up for the jumper, he's not a good jump shooter yet though. Like I said if Griffin suddenly stopped attempting those jumpers off of a Chris Paul pick and roll/pop, I'd imagine their offense takes a big hit. Their best play becomes way less effective because their roll/pop recipient is deliberately avoiding a good option. It'd be a dynamo effect where teams will suddenly not play Griffin for the pop, and crowd Paul even harder, like what already happens with Lowry. The fact that Lowry still manages to make plays out of being crowded is a testament to his high IQ, vision, and passing skills.

KnightofHyrule wrote:Raptors are not trying to be "not that bad". Raptors are trying to win an NBA Championship. Raptors are below Golden State and Cleveland when it comes to uncontested FG%. Patterson is shooting 21.5% on open 3pt shots. Really? He's taking 4.25 open shots per game, and making slightly less than 1 per game. That's unacceptable. That's 1 out of every 5 open shots. How do you expect to win a championship like that? Carroll is shooting less than 30% on open shots as well.

Again, "not that bad" isn't the goal here. Either:
1) Raptors need to be GREAT hitting open shots, or
2) Bolding for emphasis, Raptors defense needs to be better!

The offense is 5th ranked, and, as the title of the thread says, DeMar DeRozan has been balling. But their defense is suspect...especially with Lowry and Ross consistently flying at defenders instead of staying on the ground, JV looking lost, and eMar eRozan having no D.


The offense isn't a problem, right now at this moment. That's because we have DeMar playing like prime Michael Jordan. Last year it wasn't a problem because Kyle Lowry was playing like Stephen Curry lite. We saw what happens when Lowry isn't playing godly anymore, our offense collapses. And unless you're willing to bet DeMar keeps playing this way for an entire season and the entire postseason, then it will be a problem, and we're going to need to get better looking shots. Besides, the question you're addressing isn't about what's wrong with the Raptors, it's about clearing the misconception that the Raptors run an ISO offense.
Image
User avatar
WESCO
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,502
And1: 403
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Face Palm

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#535 » by WESCO » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:28 am

Im sorry but even if Lowry played like last year "curry lite" and demar keeps at his "prime Jordan level" I still can't see you winning against cavs in a 7 game series.

And I f***in hate anything Clevland (yes I'm still salty go cubs coming from a giants fan =P
User avatar
WESCO
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,502
And1: 403
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Face Palm

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#536 » by WESCO » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:28 am

I can't even listen to bone thugs any more
User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#537 » by Kabookalu » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:43 am

WESCO wrote:Im sorry but even if Lowry played like last year "curry lite" and demar keeps at his "prime Jordan level" I still can't see you winning against cavs in a 7 game series.


Oh boy.
Image
KnightofHyrule
Pro Prospect
Posts: 800
And1: 1,041
Joined: Mar 16, 2014
   

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#538 » by KnightofHyrule » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:59 am

Choker wrote:The offense isn't a problem, right now at this moment. That's because we have DeMar playing like prime Michael Jordan. Last year it wasn't a problem because Kyle Lowry was playing like Stephen Curry lite. We saw what happens when Lowry isn't playing godly anymore, our offense collapses. And unless you're willing to bet DeMar keeps playing this way for an entire season and the entire postseason, then it will be a problem, and we're going to need to get better looking shots. Besides, the question you're addressing isn't about what's wrong with the Raptors, it's about clearing the misconception that the Raptors run an ISO offense.

But Choker, the Raptors are missing open shots anyway. Raptors can create open shots with dribble penetration, so they get open shots regardless if the ball moves beautifully or not. Problem is, if Raptors get better looking shots, they are going to miss them anyway. If Patterson gets twice as many open looks, then he'll go 2-10 instead of 1-5. It's actually worse because that's 4 more potential missed possessions. I would rather DeRozan take the ball for those 4 possessions.

If Patterson and Lowry hit more open shots, then the ISO talk will be irrelevant, because Raptors would be putting up at least 110 even against some of the better defenses. So ball movement isn't the issue. They need to hit open shots regardless.

So, after the first quarter against the Kings, the Raptors offense has 28 points. A slightly above average first quarter.
But why do the Sacramento Kings have 36 points???? Every time the other team has the ball, I feel as though the other team is going to score no matter what. Their half court defense is atrocious right now. Raptors actually have good ball movement when the other team's defense isn't set up, but this only happens when getting stops.

Anyway, we can go back and forth on this forever. I'm just saying that ball movement is irrelevant if players aren't making open shots anyway. Too many open shots were missed during the playoffs, especially by Lowry. He needs to be consistent with that this year or else they won't be Cleveland.

WESCO wrote:I can't even listen to bone thugs any more

Why not lol? How dare...BTNH 4 Life
Thanks for ruining everything, KD....
Image
User avatar
Kabookalu
RealGM
Posts: 50,054
And1: 34,449
Joined: Aug 18, 2006
Location: Long Beach, California
 

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#539 » by Kabookalu » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:29 am

KnightofHyrule wrote:But Choker, the Raptors are missing open shots anyway. Raptors can create open shots with dribble penetration, so they get open shots regardless if the ball moves beautifully or not. Problem is, if Raptors get better looking shots, they are going to miss them anyway. If Patterson gets twice as many open looks, then he'll go 2-10 instead of 1-5. It's actually worse because that's 4 more potential missed possessions. I would rather DeRozan take the ball for those 4 possessions.


That claim isn't substantiated by the numbers. We're decent at hitting our open looks, we also get a very little amount of open shots. Patterson blows I don't deny that, but there are far more players on our team than Patterson capable of knocking down open shots, and apparently they're enough to offset Patterson's putrid shooting. If we get more open shots then we should continue hitting them at an open rate.

Sure, we can be elite at hitting our open shots while still limiting the amount of we get. I'll liken this muscle pain. I'm a massage therapist, and often I get clients who complain about back pain. They'll say they've had this aching issue located around their rhomboid area, and they want that area massaged. The thing is, often times the origin of the pain will lie somewhere else. Like their chest is shortened causing their back to overextended itself, or the pain is really coming from their shoulder. Just the other day I had someone complaining about pain in their leg, and although massage alleviates the pain at first, it always comes back quickly. I discovered the pain was actually caused by a tight piriformis. I released that tightness, and the pain was gone immediately. I didn't even work on his leg, just some typical kneading, but I didn't go deep in his leg because there was nothing wrong with his legs.

I see this the same with our offense. Right now we're doing great frontloading the majority of our offensive responsibilities in our backcourt. Though we could do better and spreading that around if Jonas could pass it. Tonight he's passing it the best I've ever seen him while DeRozan is having a bad shooting night by his standard, yet we're up.
Image
User avatar
WESCO
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,502
And1: 403
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Face Palm

Re: Demar derozan has been balling 

Post#540 » by WESCO » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:08 am

Choker wrote:
WESCO wrote:Im sorry but even if Lowry played like last year "curry lite" and demar keeps at his "prime Jordan level" I still can't see you winning against cavs in a 7 game series.


Oh boy.


Lowry curry lite fine whatever. If you feel that way.

But prime Jordan ?! Lmao.

Ooooohhh bbboooyy

Return to The General Board