When Does an Individual Possession Start?

Johnny Firpo · Post #1 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:13 am

Case in point, Young's game winner.

In my opinion, this cannot be a travel, for the simple fact that he does not have possession over the ball in the first few steps. If you look at the video, you see that he intercepts a pass that was intended for someone else (Williams). Now, when he touches the ball, he clearly does not have possession yet, right? To my interpretation, he has possession from the moment he starts to gather the ball with his left hand. Am I right about this? Also, could you guys point me to the rule? When does an individual possession start, when a player is passed the ball to? Btw, I think the bad representation of when a possession starts is one of the reasons why many people cry travel when they see lots of steps, regardless if the player had possession over the ball, or not.

Johnny Firpo · Post #2 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:15 pm

Guys, someone has to have info on this. I didn't find anything on google, but there is no way this isn't addressed in the rule book. The ref, if you see this, please respond!

Zenith · Post #3 » by **Zenith** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:36 pm

As a former player with ref experience, I would call that a travel. The possession argument you are making relies on a defender making a play against the offensive team, that doesn't (shouldn't) apply here as strictly the offensive team has possession and it wasn't lost. To me while Nick Young does bobble the ball a little bit he clearly looks in control of it the whole time. Home game for the lakers, close game, of course that travel isn't getting called though.

Johnny Firpo · Post #4 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:54 pm

Zenith wrote:that doesn't (shouldn't) apply here as strictly the offensive team has possession and it wasn't lost.

Thanks for your reply, but with all due respect, I'm reasonaby sure you are wrong about this. Individual possession is definitely a thing, and has little to do with if the team has possession. Hopefully somebody will be able to cite the rule, because I can't find it.

Zenith · Post #5 » by **Zenith** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:01 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Zenith wrote:that doesn't (shouldn't) apply here as strictly the offensive team has possession and it wasn't lost.

Thanks for your reply, but with all due respect, I'm reasonaby sure you are wrong about this. Individual possession is definitely a thing, and has little to do with if the team has possession. Hopefully somebody will be able to cite the rule, because I can't find it.

LMAO, ask a question you don't know an answer to, then tell the person with real life experience they're wrong. You are wrong, the rule book does not address the question your asking, its left up to interpretation. Possessions are looked at from a team perspective, not from the standpoint of one person (unless its offender vs. defender but again that is team vs. team).

Johnny Firpo · Post #6 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:07 pm

Zenith wrote:LMAO, ask a question you don't know an answer to, then tell the person with real life experience they're wrong. You are wrong, the rule book does not address the question your asking, its left up to interpretation. Possessions are looked at from a team perspective, not from the standpoint of one person (unless its offender vs. defender but again that is team vs. team).

I don't have to know the answer to know that your answer is NOT it. But if you insist, your answer was silly. Of course individual possession is a thing, and that was actually never a question. I was asking about the specific rule. Haven't you seen a player bobbling the ball then grab it, before start to dribble it? It happens in every game, and that alone shows you that you are wrong. Or answer me this, do the refs start to count the steps from the moment someone touches the ball?

Of course not. it depends if the player has controlled possession over the ball, or not. Another example, fast break, the ball is ahead, an offensive player and a defensive player runs towards it. The offensive player taps the ball ahead for himself, runs it down, grabs, it, starts the dribble. Completely legal play, and another example of why what you are saying, is wrong.

sixerswillrule · Post #7 » by **sixerswillrule** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:08 pm

Zenith wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:
Zenith wrote:that doesn't (shouldn't) apply here as strictly the offensive team has possession and it wasn't lost.

Thanks for your reply, but with all due respect, I'm reasonaby sure you are wrong about this. Individual possession is definitely a thing, and has little to do with if the team has possession. Hopefully somebody will be able to cite the rule, because I can't find it.

LMAO, ask a question you don't know an answer to, then tell the person with real life experience they're wrong. You are wrong, the rule book does not address the question your asking, its left up to interpretation. Possessions are looked at from a team perspective, not from the standpoint of one person (unless its offender vs. defender but again that is team vs. team).

When a player has control of the ball is looked at from the standpoint of one person. That's what he means by individal possession.

I agree that it's a travel. He took 4 steps after he first touched the ball. I'm ok with calling the first step as part of the gather but definitely not the first two steps.

elBJ · Post #8 » by **elBJ** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:09 pm

right here

Johnny Firpo · Post #9 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:11 pm

elBJ wrote:
right here

Could be, but this doesn't help one bit answering my question.

Johnny Firpo · Post #10 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:18 pm

The fast break example explained a bit better - defensive team gets the rebound, the rebounder starts to dribble it, the team has possession, passes the ball towards his teammate who is in position to have a fast break basket, along with a defender in the close proximity. The defender almost reaches the ball, but the offensive player taps it over his head, before running it down, grabbing it (!), dribbling, and dunking. Happens every other game, legal play, and shows that the individual possession does not necessary start at the time the player touches the ball.

Maybe it's the fact that I'm not a native speaker, but I don't think my explanation was that hard to understand. I've been watching NBA for more than 11 years, and based on that, I think the rule is something like this: the offensive player has to have clear control over the ball for a moment. This doesn't have to mean grabbing it with two hands, but he has to have clear control. And from that moment, the refs start to count the steps. I'm pretty sure - watching the games - that this is their interpretation, but I cannot believe there isn't written standards about this, hence my question. The rules has to address this somewhere, in some way.

elBJ · Post #11 » by **elBJ** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
elBJ wrote:
right here

Could be, but this doesn't help one bit answering my question.

This is the exact answer to your question.
Your (w)hole argument is based off the dribbling motions in other cases. Nick didn't took a dribble. So this is the moment his individual possession starts, count the steps yourself. If you want to say this is not possessing the ball, you could run the whole court while letting the ball barely slip over your fingers.

Johnny Firpo · Post #12 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:36 pm

elBJ wrote:This is the exact answer to your question.
Your whole argument is based off the dribbling motions in other cases. Nick didn't took a dribble. So this is the moment his individual possession starts, count the steps yourself. If you want to say this is not possessing the ball, you could run the whole court while letting the ball barely slip over your fingers.

No, I'm not saying it's not possessing the ball, I'm saying the posession doesn't necessarily start at the moment the player touches the ball, which is a fact. Next up is interpretation, which I don't think is as vague, as you guys suggest.

Patches Perry · Post #13 » by **Patches Perry** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:38 pm

elBJ wrote:
right here

Bingo.

He has enough possession there to where the steps count. Even if it's not a firm two-hands-on-the-ball possession, it's controlling the ball in your favor. I mean, obviously a player can't catch the ball with one hand and just run all over the court with it.

Johnny Firpo · Post #14 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:46 pm

Patches Perry wrote:it's controlling the ball in your favor. I mean, obviously a player can't catch the ball with one hand and just run all over the court with it.

Obviously can't, and I did not suggest it otherwise. I think we are now getting somewhere, but I still think this is too vague. I like that you mentioned "contrlling the ball in your favor", but to what extent? Watching this video, I think the ref did not whistle, because in his mind, the possession only starts where Young starts to bring in the ball, after reaching out to it, slowing it down. To me, that would make perfect sense, so basically the moment where he ball stops. And that would be two steps after the moment you guys stopped the video. Just watching it, that is how I would interpret possession, and I'm pretty sure the ref did the same. Now what would help, actually reading the rule. Again, I cannot imagine if the rule never addresses this.

elBJ · Post #15 » by **elBJ** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:47 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
elBJ wrote:This is the exact answer to your question.
Your whole argument is based off the dribbling motions in other cases. Nick didn't took a dribble. So this is the moment his individual possession starts, count the steps yourself. If you want to say this is not possessing the ball, you could run the whole court while letting the ball barely slip over your fingers.

No, I'm not saying it's not possessing the ball, I'm saying the posession doesn't necessarily start at the moment the player touches the ball, which is a fact. Next up is interpretation, which I don't think is as vague, as you guys suggest.

I made a pic at the exact moment he comes into possession. He takes 4 steps after that. This is/should be no discussion. +it is the answer to your question in this case.

If he had taken just one dribble, there could be a legit discussions about possession and dribbling motions, even if he took like 8-9 steps afterwards.
But Nick didn't took a dribble. His possession starts with him carrying the ball at 8.1 and he sets both of his feet twice after that. It's a obvious missed travel in this case.

There are cases where discussions are legit, this isn't one of them.

Johnny Firpo · Post #16 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:52 pm

elBJ wrote:I made a pic at the exact moment he comes into possession. He takes 4 steps after that. This is/should be no discussion. +it is the answer to your question in this case.

If he had taken just one dribble, there could be a legit discussions about possession and dribbling motions, even if he took like 8-9 steps afterwards.
But Nick didn't took a dribble. His possession starts with him carrying the ball at 8.1 and he sets both of his feet twice after that. It's a obvious missed travel in this case.

There are cases where discussions are legit, this isn't one of them.

But that's just your interpretation of where the possession starts, I have a different opinion, and pretty sure the ref did too. I really don't want to be condescending (though you started it with the (w)hole thing), and now I actually regret bringing this video, because I could have asked my main question without it, but yeah, too late for that. Anyway, I guess you don't know the rule either, maybe someone will, or it's really not addressed in the rule book, which would be ridiculous in my opinion.

Patches Perry · Post #17 » by **Patches Perry** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:58 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:it's controlling the ball in your favor. I mean, obviously a player can't catch the ball with one hand and just run all over the court with it.

Obviously can't, and I did not suggest it otherwise. I think we are now getting somewhere, but I still think this is too vague. I like that you mentioned "contrlling the ball in your favor", but to what extent? Watching this video, I think the ref did not whistle, because in his mind, the possession only starts where Young starts to bring in the ball, after reaching out to it, slowing it down. To me, that would make perfect sense, so basically the moment where he ball stops. And that would be two steps after the moment you guys stopped the video. Just watching it, that is how I would interpret possession, and I'm pretty sure the ref did the same. Now what would help, actually reading the rule. Again, I cannot imagine if the rule never addresses this.

It starts when he is controlling in his favor. Yes it's subjective, but this doesn't mean you can justify a 6 step movement with the ball in/on your hand without a dribble because maybe he doesn't meet some arbitrary threshold of what full possession is. An argument can be made that any player who doesn't have two hands on the ball doesn't have full possession under that pretense.

I think you're maybe thrown off by him being off balance. Just because a player is off balance, doesn't mean he can't control the ball. Young had control at the point in the picture above. He just hadn't gathered his feet or balance, which he did in the steps after.

Johnny Firpo · Post #18 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:02 pm

I don't know, to me, the possession starts here. He slows down the ball at first, and the ball stops. This is that moment, and I would only start to count the steps from that moment.

That is the moment he starts to make the offensive move (gathering for the shot), up until that moment he established possession by slowing down the ball with his left hand, and starting to bring it in. Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I would interpret it. Either the ref agreed, or they made a mistake, doesn't really matter, I just wish I could read the rule on this ( broken record, lol).

Percules · Post #19 » by **Percules** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:05 pm

Dude, chill, this IS A TRAVEL. He establishes a pivot foot with the second step, then takes steps AGAIN with both of his legs, 4 steps -> travel.
Also don't forget that the refs did not analyze this like you did, frame to frame in slow motion. It's just a missed call.
It's not exactly news, that NBA refs don't call/miss every travel.

sixerswillrule · Post #20 » by **sixerswillrule** » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:10 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:I don't know, to me, the possession starts here. He slows down the ball at first, and the ball stops. This is that moment, and I would only start to count the steps from that moment.

That is the moment he starts to make the offensive move (gathering for the shot), up until that moment he established possession by slowing down the ball with his left hand, and starting to bring it in. Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I would interpret it. Either the ref agreed, or they made a mistake, doesn't really matter, I just wish I could read the rule on this ( broken record, lol).

His left foot is in the air at that moment, making it 3 steps after the gather and still a travel. It is very common to see players do this though, when they catch the ball around the 3 point line (hell, Lou Williams does it on this play before passing it back to Ingram). Refs let them get away with it but obviously this was a more critical play.