James Harden with 3rd most TO's of all time.

[KHRICH]

Not sure if there's another team that relies so heavily on 1 person to carry the offense as Houston does with Harden.

Do you remember what team Durant used to play for?

The one with Russel Westbrook on it? Currently averaging 5.3 TO per game.

That wasnt the point you brought up noone that relies on 1 player and he gave you an answer...

[jwise44]

that's pretty impressive considering he did accomplished that in 7.25 seasons and was a backup for 3

It's in a game not all time turnover leader

[RunOKC]

When you have 70% usage 5 turnovers is pretty good

Westbrook had like 9 in 3 quarters iirc but didn't turn it over in the 4th a few games ago

[Bergmaniac]

12 turnovers. Most in a game since 2009 and 3rd all time.

Looks set to smash the all time record for most turnovers in s season. Currently averaging 5.8 per game.

Westbrook could overtake him for the record. He's at 5.4 per game. This could be a exciting race all year.

[The_Hater]

12 turnovers. Most in a game since 2009 and 3rd all time.

Looks set to smash the all time record for most turnovers in s season. Currently averaging 5.8 per game.

Westbrook could overtake him for the record. He's at 5.4 per game. This could be a exciting race all year.

Westbrook is averaging more TO's per minute than Harden too.

[Bergmaniac]

^Is he? According to bref Harden has a slight lead in turnovers per 36 minutes.

[quatin]

Do you remember what team Durant used to play for?

The one with Russel Westbrook on it? Currently averaging 5.3 TO per game.

That wasnt the point you brought up noone that relies on 1 player and he gave you an answer...

My point wasn't literally, "which team relies on one player to play make more than Houston". That would be rather off topic for this thread. It was that Harden handles the ball more so he has more turnovers so it's unfair to compare him to other guards in the league on balanced teams.

Even then it's arguable which team relies on their star more. Okc has oladipo.

[RatherUnique]

Magic used to average 4.5 a game.

Yes, the pace was higher back then, but Harden's usage rate is substantially higher than Magic's also.

[Triples333]

You have to take into account that not only is he among the league leaders in scoring, but also has one of the highest assist%'s all time right now at 56%. With those factored in, you see that a 20% turnover rate really is not all that crazy. It would be par for the course for a Nash or Stockton or Magic season.

[Johnny Firpo]

You have to take into account that not only is he among the league leaders in scoring, but also has one of the highest assist%'s all time right now at 56%. With those factored in, you see that a 20% turnover rate really is not all that crazy. It would be par for the course for a Nash or Stockton or Magic season.

Exactly, in Harden's case, looking at the raw number is misleading.

[Prokorov]

12 turnovers. Most in a game since 2009 and 3rd all time.

Looks set to smash the all time record for most turnovers in s season. Currently averaging 5.8 per game.

I don't think this is that surprising. Anytime James Harden has ever been asked to play PG he's also had trouble taking care of the ball.

Harden is an excellent passing guard but as with a lot of PG's he doesn't have the consistent dribbling skills that PG's usually have.

Big Deal or no?

I dont care about turnovers i care about assist to turnover ratio, and his is solid.

when you post GOAT type offesnive number/efficiency then im not worried about it. also when you pace adjust his turnovers they dont look as bad

[Prokorov]

Big deal yes . His TO has always been his biggest issue. He's in offensive system that demands you make the most of your poessions. With his poor defense it's not a winning formula.

at 1.21 PPP im not sure how anyone can say he isnt making the most of his possessions.

His poor defense is overstated. its bad but its no lillard/bogdanovic/bargani/ryan anderson type bad

[Jables]

I blame this thread on Embiid's minute restriction.

Harden's turnovers per 100 possessions is well below Embiid's.

Yup, that rookie center with a minutes restriction sure does suck at taking care of the ball compared to Harden, 76ers should trade him to Charlotte.

Harden is a fantastic talent but I'm not buying that top 2 player, carries so and so yada yada anymore, all the assists in the world don't make those turnovers count less. I don't even think he's close to being the best player.
If his turnovers didn't matter as much as people say because of his high usage, and his defense isn't that bad, and his numbers should put him in the same league as anyone then it puzzles me as to why the Rockets are in the same spot as the Grizzlies in such a superstar driven league, you can make all the excuses for him you want but if you use that much of the ball and you're a bona fida superstar, you win and you win around as much as the best. Otherwise you don't get to be compared with Magic.

You've gotta be in denial to say he isn't brilliant, but also severely flawed.

[Bergmaniac]

I blame this thread on Embiid's minute restriction.

Harden's turnovers per 100 possessions is well below Embiid's.

Yup, that rookie center with a minutes restriction sure does suck at taking care of the ball compared to Harden, 76ers should trade him to Charlotte.

Harden is a fantastic talent but I'm not buying that top 2 player, carries so and so yada yada anymore, all the assists in the world don't make those turnovers count less. I don't even think he's close to being the best player.
If his turnovers didn't matter as much as people say because of his high usage, and his defense isn't that bad, and his numbers should put him in the same league as anyone then it puzzles me as to why the Rockets are in the same spot as the Grizzlies in such a superstar driven league, you can make all the excuses for him you want but if you use that much of the ball and you're a bona fida superstar, you win and you win around as much as the best. Otherwise you don't get to be compared with Magic.

You've gotta be in denial to say he isn't brilliant, but severely flawed.

It is a team sport. One superstar can't do everything. Houston is a terrible team when Harden is on the bench - 97 ORTG and 111 DRTG. Obviously not his fault.

[K_chile22]

Big deal yes . His TO has always been his biggest issue. He's in offensive system that demands you make the most of your poessions. With his poor defense it's not a winning formula.

at 1.21 PPP im not sure how anyone can say he isnt making the most of his possessions.

His poor defense is overstated. its bad but its no lillard/bogdanovic/bargani/ryan anderson type bad

His defense has also been from fine to good this season. It's about where it was 2 years ago

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using RealGM mobile app

[Kswiss]

I swore he had 13 TO's in that game against the Warriors in the playoffs. But yea agreed on the whole awful defense/poor offense combo being tough to overcome for his teammates. D'antoni certainly has a tough task ahead of him making Rockets competitive

[blitz41]

Its not as problematic due to his usage and high assist numbers. Right now his assist to turnover ration is right there with alot of other top guards with lots of responsibility:
Harden-2.15
Curry-2.18
Lowry-2.32
Conley-2.24
Wall-2.12
Westbrook-2.02

Chris paul is really the only PG whos truly separate from the pack with a ratio of 4.08

[jamalkandur]

Harden's always been a TO prone since the beginning of his Rockets franchise guy tenure, 3.8/3.6/4.0/4.6/5.8, actually if you consider his insane usg rate, increase from 4.6 to 5.8 is not much. By the way some other guys are not much behind; Westbrook 5.4, Wall 4.3, Embiid 4.2 and if you evaluate according to per 36, Harden's numbers do not draw much apart from others, Harden 5.6, Russ 5.3, Mudiay 4.6, Wall 4.5 anddd hang on to your hats because golden boy Embiid 6.7

[Ballerhogger]

Harden's always been a TO prone since the beginning of his Rockets franchise guy tenure, 3.8/3.6/4.0/4.6/5.8, actually if you consider his insane usg rate, increase from 4.6 to 5.8 is not much. By the way some other guys are not much behind; Westbrook 5.4, Wall 4.3, Embiid 4.2 and if you evaluate according to per 36, Harden's numbers do not draw much apart from others, Harden 5.6, Russ 5.3, Mudiay 4.6, Wall 4.5 anddd hang on to your hats because golden boy Embiid 6.7

For embiid he shouldn't even be in that position. That's just bad coaching

[RakimAbdulJabar]

For a more accurate assessment of a player, you need to break them down into the type of turnover. Are they due to bad passes, offensive fouls, travel, dribbling violation etc