Durant hero ball has Draymond not too happy

[Patches Perry]

I would love to see you connect the dots with a syllogism to simplify this whole thing.

Ok, I am going to truncate your post to get to the salient points:

In the context of rebounding, try to visualize what happens on a missed shot in the NBA in a standard half court offense:

1) On a short rebound, the ball bounces off the rim, one or more times. It goes into the air. While the ball is in the air for a relatively short period of time, the players under the rim try to anticipate the trajectory of the ball as well as fight for position. This means the following:

a) Quickness is of limited benefit because players tend to get to the spot before the ball does
b) Even if you wanted to take a direct path to the ball, you often cannot because bodies are in the way
c) If the offensive team is going for the rebound, it's nearly impossible not to have someone with 4 feet of a ball less than 6 feet from the rim. An opposing center standing near the rim will, by definition, contest most rebounds within 6 feet of the rim, never mind opposing forwards and guards
d) The margin for error in judgement is relatively small -- a player who misreads the speed of the ball off the rim might misjudge it by 1-2 feet but won't miss by 5
d) If a player does somehow win a ball by quickness, he's not getting 4 feet of separation because that's physically impossible in the second or so before the ball arrives

So the only situation where you're getting a ball within 6 feet of the rim and 4 feet away from an opposing player is either a) where the other team is not trying to rebound, b) the opposing team hasn't gotten in position to rebound or c) where teammates have done a good enough job of boxing out that no one can get within 4 feet of the ball

2) For long rebounds, sure, it takes the ball longer to arrive and there's a much greater margin for error in misjudging the ball, so speed and anticipation play a much larger role. I could completely believe that Westbrook would post better numbers on these balls but the data shows he does not (at least not materially more from other good rebounding guards)

To me, your argument is akin to discrediting a great scorer (player x) because most of his shots are open (by some arbitrary number of feet) even though that players ability to create open shots is the reason he is always open. Then circling back around and saying player y scores almost as much, but all of his points are not open. It seriously lacks context.

It's funny you say this because people absolutely do judge shooters on whether they primarily shoot contested or uncontested shots. That was a big knock on Harrison Barnes when he was on the Warriors: he was shooting a lot of wide open 3s. A player who creates his own shot generally isn't getting 4 feet of separation on a defender, at least not unless it's one of those 'ankle breaker' moments that make all of the highlights

A) The OKC bigs role in this is easy and easily replaceable. Boxing out and keeping your man away for the short period of time it takes for Westbrook to track the ball is not difficult - especially if you are not tasked with actually pursuing the ball yourself. Literally every team has guys who can do this.

My biggest issue here, not just with your post but with the emphasis on guard triple doubles is this: big men boxing out well IS the key skill here. Adams is the guy who is creating most of the value here, not Westbrook. It's ridiculous for people to ignore that and focus on the raw stats and shame on any OKC fan who disses Adams to promote Westbrook

D) I agree that his spike in rebounding numbers is not because of some newly formed skill, but rather an ability he has had for years but is now being utilized better, and something he has been tasked to focus on. To me, this doesn't mean his rebounding numbers are overrated this year as much as his ability to rebound was underrated in years past. Again, see Curry's shooting ability. He didn't magically become a better shooter in 2016. He was a monster at Davidson and could always shoot the lights out. It was a better situation. This doesn't mean he was overrated in 2016 but his shooting was underused in prior years.

You keep comparing rebounding to shooting but they are very different. First, rebounding is an individual skill, not a team skill. You don't need your team to give you 'rebounding attempts' (although, admittedly, offense and defensive responsibilities can limit a player's access to rebounds) and Dennis Rodman, for example, didn't require his teammates to pass or screen for him to get rebounds. While a young player's body development might help him grab rebounders, it's really not an acquired skill. Great rebounders are great rebounders and don't need a scheme to enable it. It's also worth noting that, with the SportVU data that we have, the players considered the best rebounders by their peers all get a lot of contested rebounds.

And, to sum it all up, that's the crux of the issue: if Westbrook's rebounding greatly improved, or the team 'cutting him free' to rebound more was truly what happened, his contested rebound numbers would have materially increased as well. If Westbrook were so quick that he was regularly beating guys by 4 feet to make a contested rebound into unconstested, that would imply that he would also sometimes beat them by 3 feet, or 2 feet and grab more contested rebounds, too. So, ALL of his rebounding numbers would have increased. Also, if unleashing Westbrook's magical rebounding was what happened, you'd expect OKC's rebounding numbers to increase, or at least stay relatively stable (i.e. losing KD and Ibaka but increasing Westbrook's role and adding Sabonis -- not to mention Pido, who's a pretty good rebounder for a guard) -- but OK's rebounding numbers have gone down this year from last: TRB 48.6 to 45.6, DRB% from 78.0 to 76.0, ORB% from 31.1 to 26.0.

So, objectively speaking, what does that tell you?

Lots of things I disagree with here, I mean lots, but at the end of the day we really need some footage to sink our teeth into how valuable uncontested rebounds are the way they are defined by the metric. We're dealing with too many hypotheticals. I don't like the parameters of your data because I watch every Thunder game and feel like they don't accurately depict the value of what your trying to devalue (Westbrook's uncontested rebounds), and admittedly that is anecdotal on my part which you don't like because it doesn't jive with the data as you feel it's correctly and usefully defined.

I don't see either of us changing our minds in this thread the way we're going. I am going to try to dig up some game tape and watch closely going forward for what you have pointed out. If you're right, I'll jump in with it next time this topic inevitably comes up.

[Patches Perry]

Go away if you don't like people talking about popular basketball teams on a basketball forum. You're like the kid who came to school just for lunch.

I'm just sayin' man - you're doing too much. You're over consumed now...you can't even drop this.

You've responded to every single post. Just sayin' too?

[PeptoKlepto]

No worries, I'll let you have the last word since it means so much to you.

[TimRobbins]

Where's Steve Kerr in all of this? The players shouldn't be running the show.

[nfmos]

It's humorous and ironic that a thread started about a supposed argument has much more animosity than the actual incident, and has carried on longer, while kd and draymond have already moved on.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[DubTheVanDamage]

Agree with this.

The OP is trying a little too hard to discredit Westbrook's season. IMO, it's a veiled attempt to discredit Westbrook, not Harden, and that's why OKC fans took offense.

Harden has gotten triple doubles, but he's not averaging one - that talk has centered around mostly Westbrook.

I mean, the OP said in the same post that Westbrook's teammates help him get those rebounds, then went on to say rebounds are not a team stat - that's a contradiction if there ever was one. Further, without wading through all the BS in this thread, you can arrive at the conclusion that what RW is doing is amazing because of this simple fact: nobody has done it since the Big O.

1) If I wanted to discredit Westbrook, there are easier ways to do so (hint: it involves % signs). But it's funny that the very same posters who rip certain players every chance they get believe perceived, veiled criticism of Westbrook to be unacceptable

2) If you're going to quote me in the third person, at least do so properly. I said rebounding was an individual skill, not stat. Dennis Rodman didn't need Steven Adams to block out for him, put him on any team and he'd collect a lot of boards. Pair him with another elite rebounder and sure, it might affect his totals a bit, but again, it's pretty much an individual skill. Shooting, not so much -- even an elite shooter benefits from gravity and movement

3) If you're going to step into this debate, bring some statistics, interesting video clips, cat memes or something else new, because bondom34 was already doing the whole misquoting while being outraged act just fine without you

[DubTheVanDamage]

Lots of things I disagree with here, I mean lots, but at the end of the day we really need some footage to sink our teeth into how valuable uncontested rebounds are the way they are defined by the metric. We're dealing with too many hypotheticals. I don't like the parameters of your data because I watch every Thunder game and feel like they don't accurately depict the value of what your trying to devalue (Westbrook's uncontested rebounds), and admittedly that is anecdotal on my part which you don't like because it doesn't jive with the data as you feel it's correctly and usefully defined.

I don't see either of us changing our minds in this thread the way we're going. I am going to try to dig up some game tape and watch closely going forward for what you have pointed out. If you're right, I'll jump in with it next time this topic inevitably comes up.

Fine to disagree, thanks for being civil, open minded and not misquoting! Let me know if you change your perspective and I'll do the same.

[bondom34]

Misquoting.

[richboy]

So when did they stop looking like a 73 win team? When they beat the Spurs in San Antonio for 72? Or was it in one of the last 4 losses in the last 30 so so games? Or was it when they beat a Westbrook team WITH Durant to get to the finals? Or was it when they went up 3-1... Wait...it MIGHT have been when they lost games 6 and 7. It was THEN that that much of the 73 win season didn't mean they were really a 73 team win....

Obviously you haven't been paying attention if you think I made that statement because they lost the last 3 games of the finals. Now read my post again because apparently you didn't read last time. They struggled last year second half. It didn't seem that way because Curry was going God mode and they were winning games they shouldn't have been winning. You coming in and pointing out that they won games. I think I pointed out they won the games. My point was they shouldn't have won the games.

You give me you watch Espn highlight post. The well this was there record post. Let me give you what I'm talking about post. Golden State late February and start of March. Should have been on a 4 game losing streak. Instead they won all 4 games. Starting with a win in Miami where Curry went for 42 to come back to beat the Heat.A game I watched and flat said Miami outplayed them but just too much Curry and Klay. Nobody else did squat in the game. They then went to Orlando where the Magic were outplaying them again. Nobody was playing well but Curry. He goes for 51 with 10 3s. Alright next game. The famous game in OKC. 12 3 pointers made by Curry of his 14 shots. Including a near half court shot to win the game. It wasn't about them winning. It was you could see teams could play with GS. Teams that weren't close to as good. Come back win to beat the Phoenix Suns and Timberwolves. IMO a ref given win in Memphis. Loses at home to Boston and Minnesota.

Now lets go back to my point. The only way you can expect GS to be a 73 win team is if Curry was going God mode like that. OKC beat the Warriors 3 of the first 4 games of the WCF because they didn't see god mode. If not for Klay they go home that round. Cleveland won the last 3 games of the Finals because they didn't see Curry God mode. Unless the league is just stupid and ignored how to defend Curry God mode Curry was not going to happen.

Let me explain the God mode Curry. The book on defending GS was switch everything. Which eliminated that Curry/Green high PNR that they were eating up the league with the first half of the year. This led to a lot of one on one opportunities for Curry being guarded by non point guards. Curry had stretches he was making incredibly difficult shots against this defense. Made it look common place. He has 3 pointers against OKC where Stephen Adams is guarding and forcing him into a 28 foot contested 3 point and he making it like he was wide open. If he plays like that then you have your 73 win team. No answer to the equation of how to defend GS because Curry abusing the switching big. If you think that Curry could do that the rest of his career then he a future GOAT candidate and Durant could play the Harrison Barnes role. Reality he couldn't do it the rest of the playoffs. Warriors didn't believe that was realistic as Kerr talked about needing a player who could take advantage of how the league was defending them. If they are going to win a title they will need Durant being a huge piece if not be the best player. As the way Kyrie has played against Curry has made it clear to me his injury gave them the 015 title.

This is the thing . Injuries happen, part of the game, any team which beats everyone can only beat everyone.

I am very happy to give full credit to The Cavs and assume LeBron and Irving would have lifted in the crucial games of the finals as they did anyway.

But to claim GSW's title because of injuries while completely dismissing any possibility of injury affecting Curry in any way last season is hypocritical. I guess he missedv2weeks of the play-offs just to prepare his excuses.

I at least want to see GSW vs Cavs again, although I am more confident of the Cavs being there than GSW. Kyrie may well smoke Curry anyway, but we can wait and see.

I wish I could dismiss it but the reality is GS won the title when Durant was injured in OKC and Kyrie and Love injured with Cleveland. The two teams that took them 7 games last year. I wouldn't say they wouldn't have won but it is just the reality. Unfortunately I have no reason to believe Curry would play considerably better if not for his injury. He just hasn't played that well against Cleveland even when healthy.

[michaelm]

Obviously you haven't been paying attention if you think I made that statement because they lost the last 3 games of the finals. Now read my post again because apparently you didn't read last time. They struggled last year second half. It didn't seem that way because Curry was going God mode and they were winning games they shouldn't have been winning. You coming in and pointing out that they won games. I think I pointed out they won the games. My point was they shouldn't have won the games.

You give me you watch Espn highlight post. The well this was there record post. Let me give you what I'm talking about post. Golden State late February and start of March. Should have been on a 4 game losing streak. Instead they won all 4 games. Starting with a win in Miami where Curry went for 42 to come back to beat the Heat.A game I watched and flat said Miami outplayed them but just too much Curry and Klay. Nobody else did squat in the game. They then went to Orlando where the Magic were outplaying them again. Nobody was playing well but Curry. He goes for 51 with 10 3s. Alright next game. The famous game in OKC. 12 3 pointers made by Curry of his 14 shots. Including a near half court shot to win the game. It wasn't about them winning. It was you could see teams could play with GS. Teams that weren't close to as good. Come back win to beat the Phoenix Suns and Timberwolves. IMO a ref given win in Memphis. Loses at home to Boston and Minnesota.

Now lets go back to my point. The only way you can expect GS to be a 73 win team is if Curry was going God mode like that. OKC beat the Warriors 3 of the first 4 games of the WCF because they didn't see god mode. If not for Klay they go home that round. Cleveland won the last 3 games of the Finals because they didn't see Curry God mode. Unless the league is just stupid and ignored how to defend Curry God mode Curry was not going to happen.

Let me explain the God mode Curry. The book on defending GS was switch everything. Which eliminated that Curry/Green high PNR that they were eating up the league with the first half of the year. This led to a lot of one on one opportunities for Curry being guarded by non point guards. Curry had stretches he was making incredibly difficult shots against this defense. Made it look common place. He has 3 pointers against OKC where Stephen Adams is guarding and forcing him into a 28 foot contested 3 point and he making it like he was wide open. If he plays like that then you have your 73 win team. No answer to the equation of how to defend GS because Curry abusing the switching big. If you think that Curry could do that the rest of his career then he a future GOAT candidate and Durant could play the Harrison Barnes role. Reality he couldn't do it the rest of the playoffs. Warriors didn't believe that was realistic as Kerr talked about needing a player who could take advantage of how the league was defending them. If they are going to win a title they will need Durant being a huge piece if not be the best player. As the way Kyrie has played against Curry has made it clear to me his injury gave them the 015 title.

This is the thing . Injuries happen, part of the game, any team which beats everyone can only beat everyone.

I am very happy to give full credit to The Cavs and assume LeBron and Irving would have lifted in the crucial games of the finals as they did anyway.

But to claim GSW's title because of injuries while completely dismissing any possibility of injury affecting Curry in any way last season is hypocritical. I guess he missedv2weeks of the play-offs just to prepare his excuses.

I at least want to see GSW vs Cavs again, although I am more confident of the Cavs being there than GSW. Kyrie may well smoke Curry anyway, but we can wait and see.

I wish I could dismiss it but the reality is GS won the title when Durant was injured in OKC and Kyrie and Love injured with Cleveland. The two teams that took them 7 games last year. I wouldn't say they wouldn't have won but it is just the reality. Unfortunately I have no reason to believe Curry would play considerably better if not for his injury. He just hasn't played that well against Cleveland even when healthy.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention if you think I made that statement because they lost the last 3 games of the finals. Now read my post again because apparently you didn't read last time. They struggled last year second half. It didn't seem that way because Curry was going God mode and they were winning games they shouldn't have been winning. You coming in and pointing out that they won games. I think I pointed out they won the games. My point was they shouldn't have won the games.

You give me you watch Espn highlight post. The well this was there record post. Let me give you what I'm talking about post. Golden State late February and start of March. Should have been on a 4 game losing streak. Instead they won all 4 games. Starting with a win in Miami where Curry went for 42 to come back to beat the Heat.A game I watched and flat said Miami outplayed them but just too much Curry and Klay. Nobody else did squat in the game. They then went to Orlando where the Magic were outplaying them again. Nobody was playing well but Curry. He goes for 51 with 10 3s. Alright next game. The famous game in OKC. 12 3 pointers made by Curry of his 14 shots. Including a near half court shot to win the game. It wasn't about them winning. It was you could see teams could play with GS. Teams that weren't close to as good. Come back win to beat the Phoenix Suns and Timberwolves. IMO a ref given win in Memphis. Loses at home to Boston and Minnesota.

Now lets go back to my point. The only way you can expect GS to be a 73 win team is if Curry was going God mode like that. OKC beat the Warriors 3 of the first 4 games of the WCF because they didn't see god mode. If not for Klay they go home that round. Cleveland won the last 3 games of the Finals because they didn't see Curry God mode. Unless the league is just stupid and ignored how to defend Curry God mode Curry was not going to happen.

Let me explain the God mode Curry. The book on defending GS was switch everything. Which eliminated that Curry/Green high PNR that they were eating up the league with the first half of the year. This led to a lot of one on one opportunities for Curry being guarded by non point guards. Curry had stretches he was making incredibly difficult shots against this defense. Made it look common place. He has 3 pointers against OKC where Stephen Adams is guarding and forcing him into a 28 foot contested 3 point and he making it like he was wide open. If he plays like that then you have your 73 win team. No answer to the equation of how to defend GS because Curry abusing the switching big. If you think that Curry could do that the rest of his career then he a future GOAT candidate and Durant could play the Harrison Barnes role. Reality he couldn't do it the rest of the playoffs. Warriors didn't believe that was realistic as Kerr talked about needing a player who could take advantage of how the league was defending them. If they are going to win a title they will need Durant being a huge piece if not be the best player. As the way Kyrie has played against Curry has made it clear to me his injury gave them the 015 title.

This is the thing . Injuries happen, part of the game, any team which beats everyone can only beat everyone.

I am very happy to give full credit to The Cavs and assume LeBron and Irving would have lifted in the crucial games of the finals as they did anyway.

But to claim GSW's title because of injuries while completely dismissing any possibility of injury affecting Curry in any way last season is hypocritical. I guess he missed 2 weeks of the play-offs just to prepare his excuses.

I at least want to see GSW vs Cavs again, although I am more confident of the Cavs being there than GSW. Kyrie may well smoke Curry anyway, but we can wait and see.

I wish I could dismiss it but the reality is GS won the title when Durant was injured in OKC and Kyrie and Love injured with Cleveland. The two teams that took them 7 games last year. I wouldn't say they wouldn't have won but it is just the reality. Unfortunately I have no reason to believe Curry would play considerably better if not for his injury. He just hasn't played that well against Cleveland even when healthy.

Hard to disagree with you unless and until they win a game against Cleveland, having lost the last 4 including the finals games obviously. All of those were after the injury in the play-offs though, and we do have the rest of this season to go.

[richboy]

1. You titled the thread saying he's a sham. Bruh.

2. OK.

3. I'm not, but saying Westbrook is a sham with total disregard to the fact that EVERY PERIMETER PLAYER GRABS A LOT OF UNCONTESTED REBOUNDS seems disingenuous, like maybe you're trying too hard to discredit someone.

Oh, because you are. Because maybe if this was so easy, someone, like anyone, like ever, would have done it.

4. I realize this. It has been tracked about 5 years. So you have data before that? Because I'd love to see it, maybe we can compare Nash, Jordan, Stockton, Brandon Roy, some all time greats. Please post, we'd love to see it!

No, I titled my thread "The Great Triple Double Sham", which neither was exclusively about Westbrook nor called him a sham. It applied to Harden's triple doubles, too -- although, again, because you seem not to understand -- regardless of the fact that I consider their rebounding numbers to be enhanced by their teams' systems, both Harden and Westbrook are terrific players having terrific seasons. Houston fans didn't freak out, why did OKC fans?

Yes, all perimeter players get a lot of uncontested rebounds, I agree with you, so why are you yelling at me? My point is this: me saying that Westbrook isn't doing anything historic or particularly special because his he's not grabbing an especially high number of contested rebounds isn't negated by the fact that 78% of Durant's rebounds are uncontested, it's a complete non-sequitur. What next, are you going to tell me that 9/10 dentists recommend sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum?

Again, Westbrook's uncontested rebounding numbers shot up, while his uncontested rebounding numbers did not. His team's rebounding numbers declined. Getting 10RPG for a guard is very impressive, although the Big O did it. Westbrook is an elite rebounder for a guard. But, no, without his teammates doing most of the heavy lifting, he would not be putting up 10 boards per game. I'm sorry that upsets you so much.

Uncontested rebounds is the dumbest stat ever created. Perhaps its a good stat that is constantly used incorrectly. In reality uncontested rebounds suggest physical dominance. Not a rebound that anyone could get. Instead a rebound that the opponent gave up on because he knew physically he couldn't challenge the player who actually got the board.

RW is getting 10 rebounds per game on the Thunder for a variety of reasons. First Kanter plays 20 minutes a game. He is the best defensive and offensive rebounder among the bigs. Only some of his minutes are with RW on the floor.

Adams is not a good defensive rebounder. Matter of fact in Adams entire career he has never grabbed 20% of the defensive rebounds. I guess he has been letting RW get rebounds for 4 years. He was outrebounded on the defensive glass by Durant, RW, Ibaka last year. Was barely better than Nick Collison. Yet for some reason the public sees this big physical guy and thinks he must be a monster on the boards. Well on the offensive glass that is true. Defensive glass he been bad his entire career.

Which bring me to the point I said before the season started. I said then RW has a great chance to average a triple double because in there most commonly used lineups Durant and RW were the best defensive rebounders. They lost Durant. They also lost Ibaka. People are surprised that RW reboundings numbers went up. Which they only do because of his size. Someone could say that Drummond or Whiteside were given rebounds by teammates. Yeah it could be true by definition. If I'm in position to get a rebound and your in position to get a rebound and you let me have it it doesn't change the fact I was in position to get the rebound.

Russell is getting 10 rebounds per game because of line up reality. That is often he is playing with bad rebounders. Still the idea that all these rebounds are being given to him would ignore the fact that OKC by position is rebounding pretty much at opponent averages at every position but PG. In essence you be saying if RW was an average rebounder at PG the other players would increase. I'm sure a few would but that would kind of ignore history. Many of the guys that Westbrook plays with have not been good defensive rebounders in his career.

Westbrook plays with Adams, Sabonis, Roberson, and Dipo. When Dipo was out he was playing a lot with Morrow. Well Morrow is one of the worst rebounders in the history of his position. Was that last year as well. Dipo is a much better rebounder and with him back you could see RW rebounds drop some. Roberson defensive rebounding percentage has went up this year. Sabonis is a rookie and who knows what kind of rebounder he is but he no better if not a little worse so far than Ibaka. Grant is a horrific rebounder.Westbrook when Sabonis and Morrow are in the game he is grabbing 33% of the defensive rebounds. When he is playing with Anthony Morrow he is grabbing 30% of the defensive rebounds. That is insanely high for any position and can't be ignored when playing with such poor rebounders.

Just a note a big reason why we are seeing these triple double numbers all over the league is because of the spread of small ball lineups. Not only is it making the paint an easier place for the guards to move around. The amount of long 3 point shots means more rebounds for the guards. We also don't see many teams crashing the offensive glass. As of right now the league is averaging about 20 offensive rebounds per game. In 1997 that was 26 offensive rebounds per game. In 87 it was nearly 30 offensive rebounds per game. More teams are just shoot and get back on defense philosophy. If you want to say well he wouldn't be getting 10 rebounds per game in the 90s your probably right. In reality Lebron James may not be the same player in the 90s with more size and less shooting on the floor. Nobody discredits Lebron for the fact he gets to drive in a lane where the center is 28 feet from the rim guarding a stretch center. He is often playing in games where he is one of the biggest if not biggest guy on the floor. Just the era we live in.

[Kwakle]

Oh and the team rebounds 4% better with him on court than off court.

From putbacks on Westbrook's misses.

[bondom34]

Oh and the team rebounds 4% better with him on court than off court.

From putbacks on Westbrook's misses.

Booooooo !

[DubTheVanDamage]

Uncontested rebounds is the dumbest stat ever created. Perhaps its a good stat that is constantly used incorrectly. In reality uncontested rebounds suggest physical dominance. Not a rebound that anyone could get. Instead a rebound that the opponent gave up on because he knew physically he couldn't challenge the player who actually got the board.

RW is getting 10 rebounds per game on the Thunder for a variety of reasons. First Kanter plays 20 minutes a game. He is the best defensive and offensive rebounder among the bigs. Only some of his minutes are with RW on the floor.

Adams is not a good defensive rebounder. Matter of fact in Adams entire career he has never grabbed 20% of the defensive rebounds. I guess he has been letting RW get rebounds for 4 years. He was outrebounded on the defensive glass by Durant, RW, Ibaka last year. Was barely better than Nick Collison. Yet for some reason the public sees this big physical guy and thinks he must be a monster on the boards. Well on the offensive glass that is true. Defensive glass he been bad his entire career.

Which bring me to the point I said before the season started. I said then RW has a great chance to average a triple double because in there most commonly used lineups Durant and RW were the best defensive rebounders. They lost Durant. They also lost Ibaka. People are surprised that RW reboundings numbers went up. Which they only do because of his size. Someone could say that Drummond or Whiteside were given rebounds by teammates. Yeah it could be true by definition. If I'm in position to get a rebound and your in position to get a rebound and you let me have it it doesn't change the fact I was in position to get the rebound.

Russell is getting 10 rebounds per game because of line up reality. That is often he is playing with bad rebounders. Still the idea that all these rebounds are being given to him would ignore the fact that OKC by position is rebounding pretty much at opponent averages at every position but PG. In essence you be saying if RW was an average rebounder at PG the other players would increase. I'm sure a few would but that would kind of ignore history. Many of the guys that Westbrook plays with have not been good defensive rebounders in his career.

Westbrook plays with Adams, Sabonis, Roberson, and Dipo. When Dipo was out he was playing a lot with Morrow. Well Morrow is one of the worst rebounders in the history of his position. Was that last year as well. Dipo is a much better rebounder and with him back you could see RW rebounds drop some. Roberson defensive rebounding percentage has went up this year. Sabonis is a rookie and who knows what kind of rebounder he is but he no better if not a little worse so far than Ibaka. Grant is a horrific rebounder.Westbrook when Sabonis and Morrow are in the game he is grabbing 33% of the defensive rebounds. When he is playing with Anthony Morrow he is grabbing 30% of the defensive rebounds. That is insanely high for any position and can't be ignored when playing with such poor rebounders.

Just a note a big reason why we are seeing these triple double numbers all over the league is because of the spread of small ball lineups. Not only is it making the paint an easier place for the guards to move around. The amount of long 3 point shots means more rebounds for the guards. We also don't see many teams crashing the offensive glass. As of right now the league is averaging about 20 offensive rebounds per game. In 1997 that was 26 offensive rebounds per game. In 87 it was nearly 30 offensive rebounds per game. More teams are just shoot and get back on defense philosophy. If you want to say well he wouldn't be getting 10 rebounds per game in the 90s your probably right. In reality Lebron James may not be the same player in the 90s with more size and less shooting on the floor. Nobody discredits Lebron for the fact he gets to drive in a lane where the center is 28 feet from the rim guarding a stretch center. He is often playing in games where he is one of the biggest if not biggest guy on the floor. Just the era we live in.

Some points:

1) Sorry, better basketball minds than yours consider contested/uncontested rebounds a critical stat and they have used quantitative evidence to back that up; we also know that NBA front offices use the stat. You cannot wave your arms and dismiss it as invalid without offering any quantitative data or explanation. Having said that, sure, physically dominant rebounders can make contested rebounders uncontested, but if you're suggesting that Westbrook is out-muscling big men on a routine basis, that's a separate discussion

2) On/off rebounding is valid, and the 4% rebounding rate with Westbrook on is compelling although -- as you correctly pointed out, outside of Kanter, the Thunder bench is full of terrible rebounders, so there is that

3) Adams is a very good rebounder and, yes, he has been letting ball handlers like Westbrook and Durant take the ball and start the break. The fact that he gets contested rebounds at a significantly higher rate than Westbrook should tell you that, at least would if you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop yelling, "LA! LA! LA! LA!"

Seriously, the reason that this so offends me is that even OKC fans are throwing Adams under the bus to justify their Westbrook-for-MVP triple double sham

4)

Are the Thunder’s bigs sacrificing rebound opportunities for Russell Westbrook?

Maybe, but they don’t care, at least according to Steven Adams.

“Not in front of you guys,” Adams joked Wednesday after Thunder practice.

Westbrook is averaging a triple-double of 31.0 points, 10.9 rebounds and 11.3 assists, leading the Thunder in all three categories. He’s 10th in the NBA in rebounds per game, and one of only three players under 6-foot-5 (Avery Bradley, 8.0; James Harden, 7.6) among the league’s top 50 rebounders.

It’s a remarkable feat, one Adams and the Thunder’s bigs apparently have no issue with. Adams is averaging a career-best 7.7 rebounds per game, 36th in the NBA. That number could be higher.

Adams then described Westbrook’s tenacity on rebounds, saying Joffrey Lauvergne in one instance had two hands on the ball only for Westbrook to wrestle it away from him.

Adams finds it funny.

Steven Adams says "as long as somebody gets a rebound it doesn't matter." Re: Russell Westbrook snatching rebounds from Thunder bigs. pic.twitter.com/OUdqs7Em9J
— Erik Horne (@ErikHorneOK) December 7, 2016

“As long as our team gets a rebound, it doesn’t matter,” Adams said. “There’s just some funny ones we mock him about.

“No one cares. I like it because I can actually box out my dude. It’s good that he actually gets to come in and take it. I don’t mind it.”

The Thunder is currently third in the NBA in rebound percentage, pulling down 52.2 percent of available rebounds, and is third in rebounding margin (+3.9).

Thunder coach Billy Donovan said since hardly any opposing point guards are going to the basket for defensive rebounds, Westbrook is getting a free run at the rim for offensive boards.

"Our frontcourt guys help Russell rebound when they're locked up having to rebound," Thunder coach Billy Donovan said. "So, if Steven Adams is locked up with Dwight Howard and neither one of them gets the ball because there's a wrestling match underneath the basket, it helps Russell."

http://newsok.com/article/5529987

Adams knows that Westbrook is taking his boards and he's fine with it. Good guy. Of course, he mentions that they do give Russ a hard time when he's too obnoxious about stealing rebounds.

Donovan states that Adams is keeping the center occupied so Russ can get an uncontested board.

It's just laughable that people are seriously trying to pretend this isn't happening when OKC beat writers and players aren't even trying to hide it. It's a sham: they know it, I know it and people who closely watch the Thunder know it. You may not.

[richboy]

Uncontested rebounds is the dumbest stat ever created. Perhaps its a good stat that is constantly used incorrectly. In reality uncontested rebounds suggest physical dominance. Not a rebound that anyone could get. Instead a rebound that the opponent gave up on because he knew physically he couldn't challenge the player who actually got the board.

RW is getting 10 rebounds per game on the Thunder for a variety of reasons. First Kanter plays 20 minutes a game. He is the best defensive and offensive rebounder among the bigs. Only some of his minutes are with RW on the floor.

Adams is not a good defensive rebounder. Matter of fact in Adams entire career he has never grabbed 20% of the defensive rebounds. I guess he has been letting RW get rebounds for 4 years. He was outrebounded on the defensive glass by Durant, RW, Ibaka last year. Was barely better than Nick Collison. Yet for some reason the public sees this big physical guy and thinks he must be a monster on the boards. Well on the offensive glass that is true. Defensive glass he been bad his entire career.

Which bring me to the point I said before the season started. I said then RW has a great chance to average a triple double because in there most commonly used lineups Durant and RW were the best defensive rebounders. They lost Durant. They also lost Ibaka. People are surprised that RW reboundings numbers went up. Which they only do because of his size. Someone could say that Drummond or Whiteside were given rebounds by teammates. Yeah it could be true by definition. If I'm in position to get a rebound and your in position to get a rebound and you let me have it it doesn't change the fact I was in position to get the rebound.

Russell is getting 10 rebounds per game because of line up reality. That is often he is playing with bad rebounders. Still the idea that all these rebounds are being given to him would ignore the fact that OKC by position is rebounding pretty much at opponent averages at every position but PG. In essence you be saying if RW was an average rebounder at PG the other players would increase. I'm sure a few would but that would kind of ignore history. Many of the guys that Westbrook plays with have not been good defensive rebounders in his career.

Westbrook plays with Adams, Sabonis, Roberson, and Dipo. When Dipo was out he was playing a lot with Morrow. Well Morrow is one of the worst rebounders in the history of his position. Was that last year as well. Dipo is a much better rebounder and with him back you could see RW rebounds drop some. Roberson defensive rebounding percentage has went up this year. Sabonis is a rookie and who knows what kind of rebounder he is but he no better if not a little worse so far than Ibaka. Grant is a horrific rebounder.Westbrook when Sabonis and Morrow are in the game he is grabbing 33% of the defensive rebounds. When he is playing with Anthony Morrow he is grabbing 30% of the defensive rebounds. That is insanely high for any position and can't be ignored when playing with such poor rebounders.

Just a note a big reason why we are seeing these triple double numbers all over the league is because of the spread of small ball lineups. Not only is it making the paint an easier place for the guards to move around. The amount of long 3 point shots means more rebounds for the guards. We also don't see many teams crashing the offensive glass. As of right now the league is averaging about 20 offensive rebounds per game. In 1997 that was 26 offensive rebounds per game. In 87 it was nearly 30 offensive rebounds per game. More teams are just shoot and get back on defense philosophy. If you want to say well he wouldn't be getting 10 rebounds per game in the 90s your probably right. In reality Lebron James may not be the same player in the 90s with more size and less shooting on the floor. Nobody discredits Lebron for the fact he gets to drive in a lane where the center is 28 feet from the rim guarding a stretch center. He is often playing in games where he is one of the biggest if not biggest guy on the floor. Just the era we live in.

Some points:

1) Sorry, better basketball minds than yours consider contested/uncontested rebounds a critical stat and they have used quantitative evidence to back that up; we also know that NBA front offices use the stat. You cannot wave your arms and dismiss it as invalid without offering any quantitative data or explanation. Having said that, sure, physically dominant rebounders can make contested rebounders uncontested, but if you're suggesting that Westbrook is out-muscling big men on a routine basis, that's a separate discussion

2) On/off rebounding is valid, and the 4% rebounding rate with Westbrook on is compelling although -- as you correctly pointed out, outside of Kanter, the Thunder bench is full of terrible rebounders, so there is that

3) Adams is a very good rebounder and, yes, he has been letting ball handlers like Westbrook and Durant take the ball and start the break. The fact that he gets contested rebounds at a significantly higher rate than Westbrook should tell you that, at least would if you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop yelling, "LA! LA! LA! LA!"

Seriously, the reason that this so offends me is that even OKC fans are throwing Adams under the bus to justify their Westbrook-for-MVP triple double sham

4)

Are the Thunder’s bigs sacrificing rebound opportunities for Russell Westbrook?

Maybe, but they don’t care, at least according to Steven Adams.

“Not in front of you guys,” Adams joked Wednesday after Thunder practice.

Westbrook is averaging a triple-double of 31.0 points, 10.9 rebounds and 11.3 assists, leading the Thunder in all three categories. He’s 10th in the NBA in rebounds per game, and one of only three players under 6-foot-5 (Avery Bradley, 8.0; James Harden, 7.6) among the league’s top 50 rebounders.

It’s a remarkable feat, one Adams and the Thunder’s bigs apparently have no issue with. Adams is averaging a career-best 7.7 rebounds per game, 36th in the NBA. That number could be higher.

Adams then described Westbrook’s tenacity on rebounds, saying Joffrey Lauvergne in one instance had two hands on the ball only for Westbrook to wrestle it away from him.

Adams finds it funny.

Steven Adams says "as long as somebody gets a rebound it doesn't matter." Re: Russell Westbrook snatching rebounds from Thunder bigs. pic.twitter.com/OUdqs7Em9J
— Erik Horne (@ErikHorneOK) December 7, 2016

“As long as our team gets a rebound, it doesn’t matter,” Adams said. “There’s just some funny ones we mock him about.

“No one cares. I like it because I can actually box out my dude. It’s good that he actually gets to come in and take it. I don’t mind it.”

The Thunder is currently third in the NBA in rebound percentage, pulling down 52.2 percent of available rebounds, and is third in rebounding margin (+3.9).

Thunder coach Billy Donovan said since hardly any opposing point guards are going to the basket for defensive rebounds, Westbrook is getting a free run at the rim for offensive boards.

"Our frontcourt guys help Russell rebound when they're locked up having to rebound," Thunder coach Billy Donovan said. "So, if Steven Adams is locked up with Dwight Howard and neither one of them gets the ball because there's a wrestling match underneath the basket, it helps Russell."

http://newsok.com/article/5529987

Adams knows that Westbrook is taking his boards and he's fine with it. Good guy. Of course, he mentions that they do give Russ a hard time when he's too obnoxious about stealing rebounds.

Donovan states that Adams is keeping the center occupied so Russ can get an uncontested board.

It's just laughable that people are seriously trying to pretend this isn't happening when OKC beat writers and players aren't even trying to hide it. It's a sham: they know it, I know it and people who closely watch the Thunder know it. You may not.

Your first point would mean something if you knew who I was. If you like the stat that is fine but every stat has its pros and cons. Your point doesn't really mean much. I never said Westbrook was out battling big men for rebounds. Matter of fact I kind of suggested the opposite. The uncontested part is a reflection of his physical dominance at your position. Not over all positions. Point guards hit Isaiah Thomas on the glass for example all the time. He one of the worst in the league. You understand going into the game that you might have a shot to get extra possessions on that side of the floor. Boston couldn't say well lets use Thomas in the same way OKC uses Westbrook. RW physical dominance at his position they know most point guards will not challenge him on the glass.

Now the idea well maybe Adams could get the rebound. If the whole point of your post is Adams could take away a rebound from Westbrook if he wanted and then maybe he wouldn't average a triple double that is fine. Your talking like Adams is this great rebounder and just allowing RW to rack up numbers on the glass. If your going to make a statement back it up. Adams is a good defensive rebounder? Why? He has never measured a good defensive rebounder in the pros. Was below that when Durant missed much of the year. Even in his 1 year of college he was considered a bad rebounder.

Adams also isn't as good of a defensive rebounder as you might hope, ranking second to last in that category among top-100 collegiate centers. He rarely boxes out opponents, mistimes his jumps, and has a difficult time coming away with loose balls in traffic because of his questionable hands, something he'll need to improve on considering the role he'll be expected to play in the NBA.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Steven-Adams-6301/

20% rebound percentage isn't some kind of incredible number. Him being as low as he has been and it isn't like OKC snatches every defensive rebound. The Thunder weren't even a good defensive rebounding team last year. Apparently Adams is holding something back.

Westbrook isn't in the game. I guess that be the time that great Adams on the glass starts. His rebound percentage without RW in the game 22%. Draymond Green level. Pretty much an average rebounder or still below average compared to other centers. The team rebound percentage falls of the charts. I guess when RW is in the game he is letting Roberson get the rebound. Apparently he just letting the other team get the board. He just not very good.

How long have you been watching basketball. For years bigs that don't get rebound say they are allowing others to get the board. Marc Gasol I'm letting others get the board. This was Rasheed Wallace thing. Brook Lopez. At some point someone has to get the rebound. Unless I missed much of history not many guards getting double digit rebounds. Your post is like OKC has come up with some knew thing that allowed Russ to rack up rebounds at a incredible rate.

[qm22]

It's humorous and ironic that a thread started about a supposed argument has much more animosity than the actual incident, and has carried on longer, while kd and draymond have already moved on.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

What incident? I'm seriously looking for the connection between the thread content and the title. Get me Cliffs, someone. This thread is hell on a somewhat lazy somewhat disinterested reader. What is being discussed here?

[bmurph128]

Agree with this.

The OP is trying a little too hard to discredit Westbrook's season. IMO, it's a veiled attempt to discredit Westbrook, not Harden, and that's why OKC fans took offense.

Harden has gotten triple doubles, but he's not averaging one - that talk has centered around mostly Westbrook.

I mean, the OP said in the same post that Westbrook's teammates help him get those rebounds, then went on to say rebounds are not a team stat - that's a contradiction if there ever was one. Further, without wading through all the BS in this thread, you can arrive at the conclusion that what RW is doing is amazing because of this simple fact: nobody has done it since the Big O.

1) If I wanted to discredit Westbrook, there are easier ways to do so (hint: it involves % signs). But it's funny that the very same posters who rip certain players every chance they get believe perceived, veiled criticism of Westbrook to be unacceptable

2) If you're going to quote me in the third person, at least do so properly. I said rebounding was an individual skill, not stat. Dennis Rodman didn't need Steven Adams to block out for him, put him on any team and he'd collect a lot of boards. Pair him with another elite rebounder and sure, it might affect his totals a bit, but again, it's pretty much an individual skill. Shooting, not so much -- even an elite shooter benefits from gravity and movement

3) If you're going to step into this debate, bring some statistics, interesting video clips, cat memes or something else new, because bondom34 was already doing the whole misquoting while being outraged act just fine without you

That's splitting hairs. What you said still doesn't make sense, even if we amend it to "skill". Shooting is an individual "skill", yet players will shoot better when they are set up/playing with better teammates. Same is true for rebounds, which is the point you were making with Westbrook. If we viewed stats and skills like you are saying, then every statistic could be attributed to the team they are playing on, rather than how good the individual player is.

And BTW - I did bring something new to the debate - I'm not an OKC fan. Your posts come off as if there is a bias against RW; OKC fans are obviously going to biased toward him. As a fan of neither you nor OKC, I felt I was qualified to jump in and share my opinion on the matter, and to simplify this argument....you're basically saying that something that hasn't been done in a half century isn't that impressive. Yikes.

[NormanDale]

I'm coming in late to this debate (which is interesting, even though it seemingly has nothing to do with the topic!), but I would have to agree with Richboy.

As a Celtics fan, I remember the tail-end of the Big-3 era, when they struggled to rebound anytime Rondo wasn't in the game. I don't buy the argument that guards who rebound well are not valuable. My subjective experience as a fan watching guards who rebound (Westbrook, Rondo, J Kidd, etc.) is that it has enormous value.

[KayDee35]

you're basically saying that something that hasn't been done in a half century isn't that impressive. Yikes.

^This.

Russ is having an amazing year. So far, it's one of the greatest single season performances ever. His Box Plus/Minus of 14.35 is way ahead of the previous high of 13 by LeBron. Only young MJ, young LeBron, and Steph (last year) have ever gotten a BPM of 12. Russ doing it at 28 is pretty incredible. Adams is the only teammate with a positive BPM of 1.4 while the rest of the team has a negative BPM.

OKC is a half game behind the Jazz and Grizz. Who would have expected that?

Meanwhile Russ is posting a league-leading VORP of 5.5 while the next best VORP on the team is 0.4. During LeBron's and MJ's best VORP seasons, they still had multiple teammates with a VORP of 2 or more. It doesn't look like anyone else is going to crack a VORP of 1.0 and this team still appear playoff bound.

This probably belongs in another thread but Russ is probably playoff-bound with the worst supporting cast to ever make it to the postseason!

[DubTheVanDamage]

I never said Westbrook was out battling big men for rebounds. Matter of fact I kind of suggested the opposite. The uncontested part is a reflection of his physical dominance at your position. Not over all positions. Point guards hit Isaiah Thomas on the glass for example all the time. He one of the worst in the league. You understand going into the game that you might have a shot to get extra possessions on that side of the floor. Boston couldn't say well lets use Thomas in the same way OKC uses Westbrook. RW physical dominance at his position they know most point guards will not challenge him on the glass.

Dude, this is the problem with walking into the middle of a conversation. I've said, repeatedly, that Westbrook is elite at rebounding for a guard, I didn't even specify point guard. He's just not (routinely) beating big men for boards, his teammates are doing that for him.

The rebounds are uncontested because most point guards don't even routinely try to get offensive boards because they're getting ready for transition defense and his teammates are occupying the big men, which is what Donovan said.

As for Adams, it's funny that you point to his college scouting report to point out what a poor rebounder he is, when the same report says he is a, "late-bloomer with limited basketball experience". He's gotten better. It's funny that you comp him to Draymond Green to make a point of what a poor rebounder he is when both Adams and Green are better rebounders than Westbrook. But that's immaterial to the point at hand -- if you want to start a PC topic on Adams, PM me and we can continue it there.

In regard to Westbrook and rebounds, look at his per game average for contested rebounds:
16-17 2.05
15-16 1.89
14-15 1.91

Now, let's look at uncontested rebounds:
16-17 8.59
15-16 5.96
14-15 5.40

Now, through 3 (incomplete) seasons, he's been incredibly consistent on contested rebounds and spiked this season on uncontested rebounds. We're talking about ~175 games and well over 1000 rebounds -- just forget everything else, is there something that jumps out to you?

If Westbrook's spike this year really was just trying more to rebound, wouldn't his contested rebounds have essentially tracked uncontested? He's not any more physically dominant this year. But his contested went up 8% and uncontested went up 44%.