Is Isiash Thomas the best PG in the EAST? [Poll added]

[Sofia]

Maybe the question should be "Is there any non-Celtics fan who thinks IT is the best point guard in the east?"

[fouronesix22]

Just because hes on the celtics everyone is riding his dingaling. Like common lowry is better gawsh!!!

[fouronesix22]

Maybe the question should be "Is there any non-Celtics fan who thinks IT is the best point guard in the east?"

No way. Not being biased here but lowry is putting in work aswell. Better 3 point percentage, assists, rebounds, steals, FG percentage is better. On top of that lowry logged 200+ minutes more than IT

[Quiet-Dude]

Right now, hes looking like the 2nd or 3rd best PG in the east but he has to show that in the playoffs as well, thats why ill put him at 4th... Lowry, Irving, and Wall had make significant impact to help their team get to 2nd round, especially Lowry and Wall. What Irving did last season was remarkable so he earned his spot in my book as well, idc about his current numbers.

[Vlade Divac]

Look at what he did to both Wall and Walker just recently. Better player this season is IT. I'm just using records as a cherry on top. Celtics would be near lottery without him.

I'm not sure man your teams has one of the best guard situations in the league. Also this

This is amazing chart! I would not have guessed in a million years. After all IT is good but not that good! Thanks for this.


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[Lauri_Legend]

Honestly, if I was building a team knowing what I know after this season, I'd still take Lowry, Kyrie, and Wall over Thomas.

It's like me asking if Jimmy Butler is the second best player in the East after Lebron James. It's a homer question. But it's always fun to ask. Although, I'd say he is.

[papidulo]

Thomas has a team built for a scoring machine; a bunch of scrappy defenders and rebounders.
If Westbrook had Thomas' wing players on the Thunder, I think theyd be the 3rd or 4th best team in the West

[Pelly24]

Exactly. Derozan has a 34% usg. Thomas 33% you expect big numbers from high usg players. There not bad players just not superstars. This iso bs over dribbling easy pentetrarion doesn't work in the playoffs

IT is scoring at a level that's really only truly surpassed by KD and Curry, while turning the ball over less than they did during their best seasons. That's not something people expect. Also, the cavs literally won the chip last year by playing hero ball. Like...literally. In fact, id venture to say individual greatness is most of the time what pushes teams over the edge to a chip or at least contending. See MJ, Kobe, LeBron, AI (got to the finals without legit second option), the list goes on. If you're actually an elite ISO player, it works fine, and based on evidence, i don't know why people keep say otherwise. If Steph and Klay could play ISO better they would've won last year. Its a must for most teams with championship aspirations. Also, IT is far more efficient than Demar Derozan.

Raptors have 2nd highest offense rating in NBA history. With demar derozan being the leading scorer. Derozan is shooting 47% and Thomas 45% only his ts is higher because ts factors the 3 ball more. Both flawed players neither are superstars. You putting isiah Thomas in the same sentence as kobe, mj and Allen iverson. Is hard to digust

Shooting threes is sort of a big deal, it helps a lot. It may be hard to digest, but IT's combination of volume and efficiency scoring the ball is incredible. It's well into the realm of superstar offense. Demar is nasty, and yeah, neither of them are superstars.

[DarkAzcura]

So many people in this thread clearly don't watch the Celtics lol

Just because hes on the celtics everyone is riding his dingaling. Like common lowry is better gawsh!!!

Well this is just revisionist bull. IT has been killing it since coming to the Celtics in 2015, but until this season you still had people calling him a bench player and Jamal Crawford/rich man's Nate. It took him averaging 28 a game and averaging the most points per game in the 4th quarter in 20 years for people here to just notice him.

[mademan]

So many people in this thread clearly don't watch the Celtics lol

The vast majority of the thread have put him top 3. Ive watched the Celtics and I dont think IT is better than Lowry/Wall either

[DarkAzcura]

So many people in this thread clearly don't watch the Celtics lol

The vast majority of the thread have put him top 3. Ive watched the Celtics and I dont think IT is better than Lowry/Wall either

Nah that's fine. It's just some other..interesting posts..

I go back and forth about Wall, though. Not from a talent perspective, but I dunno about his leadership. More qualitative than quantitative.

[dlts20]

Wall literally probably has more double doubles than all the other guards combined. He's the best defender of the group. He can score but is the only guy of the group who can still control a game when he's not scoring. I think Lowry benefits crazy from the motion offense and it still seems like IT & Kyrie benefit themselves more than the team. None of them can run an offense like Wall who also leads the league in steals

There is no point guard in the East than can run an offense better than Lowry. Only LeBron, and he isnt a PG.
http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/#!?CF=MIN*GE*100&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1

Lineups with at least 100 minutes. Don't even worry about #1 that's far ahead of every other lineup....look at #6. Lowry plus bench is a lineup where Lowry literally maximizes the potential of his teammates. Lowry can make dudes like Nogueria, Poeltl and Siakam look like All-Stars on offense at times. You wouldn't even know who Nogueria, Poeltl and Siakam were if it wasn't for Lowry. John Wall wouldn't even pass to those guys lol.

Spoiler:

Raps up by 10, Lowry gets injured and goes to the back, Raps down 4 when he returns. Start at 2:37. He just dismantles the Jazz. Utah fans started having emotional issues after the pass to JV at 3:42.
Look at the pass to Nogueria at 4:40. Who lobs to a no-name big in a high pressure situation like that? Wall? Doesn't happen.

Watch on YouTube

3:07 As the Lakers commentator said: "Lulls you to sleep.....you don't think he's going to do anything and then..." BANG! You can watch all 4+ mins. He's calm, reads the court with patience, and once again, maximizes the potential of his teammates.

Watch on YouTube

Just thought i'd give you footage to show why Lowry commands the best lineup in the league.

But my point is that numbers don't always tell the story. It's clear that Toronto has been better and I still say that Lowry benefits a ton from the motion offense. I even see him despite being the PG, he catches the ball on the move alot in that system like he's an off guard. He's not going to come down in a basic set offense and be able to set the table for every guy on the court or single handily disect a defense and find a guy in the corner

[mademan]

Wall literally probably has more double doubles than all the other guards combined. He's the best defender of the group. He can score but is the only guy of the group who can still control a game when he's not scoring. I think Lowry benefits crazy from the motion offense and it still seems like IT & Kyrie benefit themselves more than the team. None of them can run an offense like Wall who also leads the league in steals

There is no point guard in the East than can run an offense better than Lowry. Only LeBron, and he isnt a PG.
http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/#!?CF=MIN*GE*100&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1

Lineups with at least 100 minutes. Don't even worry about #1 that's far ahead of every other lineup....look at #6. Lowry plus bench is a lineup where Lowry literally maximizes the potential of his teammates. Lowry can make dudes like Nogueria, Poeltl and Siakam look like All-Stars on offense at times. You wouldn't even know who Nogueria, Poeltl and Siakam were if it wasn't for Lowry. John Wall wouldn't even pass to those guys lol.

Spoiler:

Raps up by 10, Lowry gets injured and goes to the back, Raps down 4 when he returns. Start at 2:37. He just dismantles the Jazz. Utah fans started having emotional issues after the pass to JV at 3:42.
Look at the pass to Nogueria at 4:40. Who lobs to a no-name big in a high pressure situation like that? Wall? Doesn't happen.

Watch on YouTube

3:07 As the Lakers commentator said: "Lulls you to sleep.....you don't think he's going to do anything and then..." BANG! You can watch all 4+ mins. He's calm, reads the court with patience, and once again, maximizes the potential of his teammates.

Watch on YouTube

Just thought i'd give you footage to show why Lowry commands the best lineup in the league.

But my point is that numbers don't always tell the story. It's clear that Toronto has been better and I still say that Lowry benefits a ton from the motion offense. I even see him despite being the PG, he catches the ball on the move alot in that system like he's an off guard. He's not going to come down in a basic set offense and be able to set the table for every guy on the court or single handily disect a defense and find a guy in the corner

What motion offense? Toronto is an Iso-heavy team

[bmurph128]

Cavs don't win the title last year with IT, so....no.

Lowry/Wall/Irving all better than IT. Stevens does an amazing job of maximizing his talent. IT is an example of that.

[Saint_Killa]

You have to be dumb not to consider him as one of the top 3 pg's in the East. If we look at Harden, sometimes he is liability on defence, but that doesn't mean he's not the best guard in the West. His offensive game shapes his greatness. Same is with IT. Advanced stats and metrics are great, but you have to look at bigger picture sometimes.

[hongdayuan]

Look at what he did to both Wall and Walker just recently. Better player this season is IT. I'm just using records as a cherry on top. Celtics would be near lottery without him.

I'm not sure man your teams has one of the best guard situations in the league. Also this

This is amazing chart! I would not have guessed in a million years. After all IT is good but not that good! Thanks for this.


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On a second look dame's calculation was wrong, he shud be a net +4.9

[KnightofHyrule]

Wall literally probably has more double doubles than all the other guards combined. He's the best defender of the group. He can score but is the only guy of the group who can still control a game when he's not scoring. I think Lowry benefits crazy from the motion offense and it still seems like IT & Kyrie benefit themselves more than the team. None of them can run an offense like Wall who also leads the league in steals

There is no point guard in the East than can run an offense better than Lowry. Only LeBron, and he isnt a PG.
http://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/#!?CF=MIN*GE*100&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1

Lineups with at least 100 minutes. Don't even worry about #1 that's far ahead of every other lineup....look at #6. Lowry plus bench is a lineup where Lowry literally maximizes the potential of his teammates. Lowry can make dudes like Nogueria, Poeltl and Siakam look like All-Stars on offense at times. You wouldn't even know who Nogueria, Poeltl and Siakam were if it wasn't for Lowry. John Wall wouldn't even pass to those guys lol.

Spoiler:

Raps up by 10, Lowry gets injured and goes to the back, Raps down 4 when he returns. Start at 2:37. He just dismantles the Jazz. Utah fans started having emotional issues after the pass to JV at 3:42.
Look at the pass to Nogueria at 4:40. Who lobs to a no-name big in a high pressure situation like that? Wall? Doesn't happen.

Watch on YouTube

3:07 As the Lakers commentator said: "Lulls you to sleep.....you don't think he's going to do anything and then..." BANG! You can watch all 4+ mins. He's calm, reads the court with patience, and once again, maximizes the potential of his teammates.

Watch on YouTube

Just thought i'd give you footage to show why Lowry commands the best lineup in the league.

But my point is that numbers don't always tell the story. It's clear that Toronto has been better and I still say that Lowry benefits a ton from the motion offense. I even see him despite being the PG, he catches the ball on the move alot in that system like he's an off guard. He's not going to come down in a basic set offense and be able to set the table for every guy on the court or single handily disect a defense and find a guy in the corner

What? The bolded part literally describes Kyle Lowry. You must have him confused with Kyrie Irving, who just brings up the ball and passes to LeBron or runs iso.

Lowry always brings up the ball and runs half court offense. Yelling at guys to get in motion, passes to the post big, passes to post DeRozan, passes to the cutting big, passes to shooters coming off screens, lobs to the big, penetration and kick outs to shooters, PnRs, whatever....

Remember, Raptors have a subpar defense right now. Lowry always has to run a set, half-court offense.

Only when Cory Joseph is on the court, Lowry plays off the ball 50% of the time. But that's his choice because he has the skill set to do so, and its extremely effective. I only watch Wizards highlights on Youtube, but would Wall let a bench PG bring up the ball?

You see, though Lowry is a CP3 type of point guard, he is also the team's 2nd best scorer and best 3pt shooter. So Lowry has to pick his spots. If Lowry wanted to, he could average 30pts/2asts, OR, 10pts/20asts. His choice. Problem is, his team would probably be hovering around .500 He has to take what the defense is giving him and pick his spots, so his 22pts/7asts is the perfect balance to maximize the potential of his team's offense.

Again, Lowry is in control of 2 of the best offensive lineups in the league. His team flipflops with Golden State for the greatest ORtg in NBA history, despite the fact that he plays with DeRozan who only shoots a bunch of 2s. Imagine what stats he could have with higher usage if DeRozan wasn't there.

The biggest difference between Lowry vs Wall/Walker/Thomas/Kyrie is that Lowry doesn't overdribble, until he's made up his mind to score with 5 secs on the shot clock. Those other dudes overdribble with like 16 secs on the clock sometimes. Like...why?

[dlts20]

I don't like charts that show stuff like that because it could just mean that either your bench sucks or your starters are just OK. Sometimes you just have to watch the games. Like I'm a Wall fan and he does have a great impact but maybe his on and off numbers would be different if he had a high level backup. Just because his backup sucks doesn't mean that he's better than IT and that goes for everyone on the list in any combination

[Rapcity_11]

I don't like charts that show stuff like that because it could just mean that either your bench sucks or your starters are just OK. Sometimes you just have to watch the games. Like I'm a Wall fan and he does have a great impact but maybe his on and off numbers would be different if he had a high level backup. Just because his backup sucks doesn't mean that he's better than IT and that goes for everyone on the list in any combination

Why not just look at the chart and consider the context behind each number?

[Infinite Llamas]

Thomas has a team built for a scoring machine; a bunch of scrappy defenders and rebounders.
If Westbrook had Thomas' wing players on the Thunder, I think theyd be the 3rd or 4th best team in the West

Lol what rebounders??

If Isaiah had a big man like Adams on the Celtics, they'd be 2nd seed easy