2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

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Who will win MVP?

Curry
12
3%
Durant
3
1%
Harden
112
31%
LeBron
42
12%
Leonard
60
17%
Westbrook
109
30%
Other
20
6%
 
Total votes: 358

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1341 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:43 pm

Torchmode wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
Torchmode wrote:
This isnt a lifetime achievement award. Its an MVP award. Aka "player of the year" award.

LeBron has not been the best player this season based on his stats and record mixed in the fact that hes sitting games.


Of course, it's not the lifetime achievement award. Or else, guys like Dirk or Wade might still be eligible. Lebron is still considered to be the best player by majority of the fans. Just not the MVP. I find this distinction awkward as I think the best player is the MVP and the MVP should go to the best player.



He doesent need an award for that. If fans consider him the best player then thats all the reconition he should get for that. The MVP award should be something a playeds works all season to achieve. Giving the award out to a player because "the fans think hes the best" would be idiotic. The award must be earned, not handed out on past achievements or fan recognition. Why even have the award then? Top players would just forfeit the season and try less hard and we would have much lower quality basketball from the superstars because they would know "lebron is gonna win it every year until he retires why bother"


Well, a lot of the time, being the best and putting up good numbers in the regular season goes hand in hand. I mean, if Lebron was averaging 3 points per game on 30% shooting, I wouldn't be advocating that he receives the MVP award, because that would be an indication that his game has gone down the toilet. But he is putting up great numbers, which adds to what we know about Lebron as the player.

I agree with you that the award must be earned. That means guys like Westbrook and Harden have to try harder to be better than Lebron. They still are not better than him. The award must be earned.

Finally, why would top players forfeit the season? This is still a team game. Are you telling me that Harden would just give up on the season if he can't get the MVP award. That would indicate how selfish he is about playing basketball if his sole motivation to play well is to win the MVP award, right?
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1342 » by bmurph128 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:48 pm

Torchmode wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


This isnt a lifetime achievement award. Its an MVP award. Aka "player of the year" award.

LeBron has not been the best player this season based on his stats and record mixed in the fact that hes sitting games.



This is where it gets dicey for me.

When people talk about Harden and Westbrook, for me, LeBron beats them both. Especially considering almost any criteria that Harden has over WB, LeBron has over Harden. For me there's no question that with LeBron's efficiency, nearly similar raw stats, superior record (when he plays), and some superior advanced stats.

The argument against him compared to those guys comes down to them having some superior advanced stats, resting games and them exceeding expectations.

The only issue with putting LeBron over them IMO is that it brings Kawhi and Steph into the conversation.

And I really do think it's a 5 player race this year....all 5 have arguments over at least one other candidate, which is a unique and exciting situation.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1343 » by RightToCensor » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:52 pm

Jordan's legacy as the greatest of all time was set without the need to gift him undeserving MVPs. Lebron's legacy isn't gonna be tarnished by him not being gifted the MVP award while playing less than 70 games all due to rest.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1344 » by K_chile22 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:53 pm

There's a reason the league is so vague about the definition of value and use a large number of voters. It's supposed to be very subjective.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1345 » by mihail_petkov » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:57 pm

LivingLegend wrote:I also think people look at raw stats FAR too much when evaluating the MVP. It basically comes down to who is averaging the most PTS/REB/AST and defense isnt even included. When you look at the actual numbers, percentages and efficiency---LeBron is the MVP.

Who team is the #1 Seed? LeBron Curry
Who is shooting the highest FG% of the 3? LeBron LeBron and Curry have same TS while Curry shooting less FTs.
Who is shooting the highest 3pt% of the 3? LeBron Curry
Who has the best On/Off of the 3? LeBron Curry
Who has the least amount of turnovers of the 3? LeBron Curry
Whose team is 1-7 without him playing? LeBron Kyrie and Love didn't play in some of the games too, also most of them were b2b away
There are 57 players in the NBA shooting 13+ shots a night. Of the 57 who has the highest shooting %? LeBron. Westbrook is 54th. Curry and LeBron both have 62% TS
Who is the best defender of the 3? LeBron LeBron is bad this year, 108 DRTG, 2.7 DWS, 1.7 DBPM, Curry - 105 DRTG, 3.2 DWS, -0.7 DBPM
Who has the best +/- of the 3? LeBron Curry

As far as Kawhi---LeBrons is the better rebounder, passer and equal in scoring. As far as his defense, Spurs defense is 9 point BETTER with Kawhi OFF the court than it is on. His defense gets slightly overstated this year since he has to take more offensive load.

Kawhi's ON/OFF- +1.4 pts
Harden ON/OFF- +5.5 pts
Westbrook ON/OFF- 11.1 pts
LeBron ON/OFF- +15.1 pts
Curry ON/OFF - +15.8 pts

4th QTR FG%

Kawhi- 30th
Harden- 64th
Westbrook- 44th
LeBron- 1st


As the guy on ESPN said. We need to stop trying to find reasons to NOT give LeBron the MVP. He is recognized as the best player by everybody in the world playing on the #1 seed playing 10x more efficient basketball than the other candidates.

So.. maybe the award should go to Curry :D
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1346 » by mtron929 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:00 pm

K_chile22 wrote:There's a reason the league is so vague about the definition of value and use a large number of voters. It's supposed to be very subjective.


The league likes it to be subjective. Also, the league doesn't want the best player to always get the MVP, because they think that is bad for the NBA business as a whole for variety of different reasons (e.g. inability market non-MVP players, less discussion/conversation about the MVP award). So while I understand why the league keeps the discussion vague, I just prefer that the best player get the MVP award as it coincides with my own personal philosophy on how the very best should be treated.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1347 » by K_chile22 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:10 pm

I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1348 » by Yank3525 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:01 pm

mtron929 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


Well, Lebron hasn't been the best player in the regular season for about four years now.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1349 » by RCM88x » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:25 pm

K_chile22 wrote:I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol


Well, raw W/L record is 100% meaningless, the only thing that has any actual value is your record relative to the other teams in the conference.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1350 » by RCM88x » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:26 pm

mihail_petkov wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:I also think people look at raw stats FAR too much when evaluating the MVP. It basically comes down to who is averaging the most PTS/REB/AST and defense isnt even included. When you look at the actual numbers, percentages and efficiency---LeBron is the MVP.

Who team is the #1 Seed? LeBron Curry
Who is shooting the highest FG% of the 3? LeBron LeBron and Curry have same TS while Curry shooting less FTs.
Who is shooting the highest 3pt% of the 3? LeBron Curry
Who has the best On/Off of the 3? LeBron Curry
Who has the least amount of turnovers of the 3? LeBron Curry
Whose team is 1-7 without him playing? LeBron Kyrie and Love didn't play in some of the games too, also most of them were b2b away
There are 57 players in the NBA shooting 13+ shots a night. Of the 57 who has the highest shooting %? LeBron. Westbrook is 54th. Curry and LeBron both have 62% TS
Who is the best defender of the 3? LeBron LeBron is bad this year, 108 DRTG, 2.7 DWS, 1.7 DBPM, Curry - 105 DRTG, 3.2 DWS, -0.7 DBPM
Who has the best +/- of the 3? LeBron Curry

As far as Kawhi---LeBrons is the better rebounder, passer and equal in scoring. As far as his defense, Spurs defense is 9 point BETTER with Kawhi OFF the court than it is on. His defense gets slightly overstated this year since he has to take more offensive load.

Kawhi's ON/OFF- +1.4 pts
Harden ON/OFF- +5.5 pts
Westbrook ON/OFF- 11.1 pts
LeBron ON/OFF- +15.1 pts
Curry ON/OFF - +15.8 pts

4th QTR FG%

Kawhi- 30th
Harden- 64th
Westbrook- 44th
LeBron- 1st


As the guy on ESPN said. We need to stop trying to find reasons to NOT give LeBron the MVP. He is recognized as the best player by everybody in the world playing on the #1 seed playing 10x more efficient basketball than the other candidates.

So.. maybe the award should go to Curry :D


Your Anti-Lebronism is comical.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1351 » by BallerTalk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:40 pm

mtron929 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
mtron929 wrote:A lot of the quibble with MVP comes with the definition of the MVP. However, there is one definition of the MVP that just seems like the most fair. That is, the MVP = best player. How can anyone think that giving the award to the best player in the NBA is somehow unfair? It is the most fair way to reward someone.

So I advocate that we slowly converge upon this definition and give the best player in the NBA (i.e. Lebron) his award.


There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


That's the default definition by virtue of its annual status.
Judging by your argument I don't think you are seeking definition but rather justification.
That you need justification to give it to the guy you trumpet as the best player speaks volumes about how you view his season.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1352 » by bmurph128 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:46 pm

K_chile22 wrote:I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol



Plus the Cavs winning percentage when LeBron plays is better than the Rockets when Harden plays
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1353 » by BallerTalk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:46 pm

K_chile22 wrote:I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol


I suspect that's because when they campaign for Lebron and everyone knows he has one of the deepest rosters in the league, full of several players he hand picked, on a team with the highest payroll in NBA history, it sounds a little less impressive when they have to admit they only have the 4th best record in the league.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1354 » by bmurph128 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:48 pm

RightToCensor wrote:Jordan's legacy as the greatest of all time was set without the need to gift him undeserving MVPs. Lebron's legacy isn't gonna be tarnished by him not being gifted the MVP award while playing less than 70 games all due to rest.



I'm sure you were exaggerating to make a point, but LeBron has played 63 out of 69 games so far this year. I imagine he ends up playing over 70. There's 4 back to backs left, plus he'll probably rest at the end of the season - so I imagine he plays around 71 games
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1355 » by bmurph128 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:50 pm

BallerTalk wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol


I suspect that's because when they campaign for Lebron and everyone knows he has one of the deepest rosters in the league, full of several players he hand picked, on a team with the highest payroll in NBA history, it sounds a little less impressive when they have to admit they only have the 4th best record in the league.



Not at all. Last year we had the 3rd best record, but the Raptors and Thunder were right there with us. We don't care about that.

When campaigning for LeBron, people will bring up how the Cavs are better than the Rockets when LeBron has played this year....which is valid and credible to an individual MVP discussion.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1356 » by BallerTalk » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:58 pm

bmurph128 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol


I suspect that's because when they campaign for Lebron and everyone knows he has one of the deepest rosters in the league, full of several players he hand picked, on a team with the highest payroll in NBA history, it sounds a little less impressive when they have to admit they only have the 4th best record in the league.



Not at all. Last year we had the 3rd best record, but the Raptors and Thunder were right there with us. We don't care about that.

When campaigning for LeBron, people will bring up how the Cavs are better than the Rockets when LeBron has played this year....which is valid and credible to an individual MVP discussion.


Even a rabid Cavs homer like you has to know that argument doesn't end well for Lebron as it goes straight to his history of picking and choosing game to voluntarily miss.
NO ONE is going to penalize players like Harden and Westbrook for showing up every night.
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1357 » by K_chile22 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:18 pm

RCM88x wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:I love how being the 1 seed is a plus for the LeBron even though they have a worse record than the Rockets lol


Well, raw W/L record is 100% meaningless, the only thing that has any actual value is your record relative to the other teams in the conference.

Well if the Rockets played in the East they'd have a better record so idk about that
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1358 » by INKtastic » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:26 pm

Yank3525 wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
BallerTalk wrote:
There's a reason why they give it out each year.
It's for the player having the best season. This season that player is NOT Lebron.


No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


Well, Lebron hasn't been the best player in the regular season for about four years now.


LeBron post all star break - 27.6 points, 11.5 rebounds, 8.8 assists, .562 shooting, .632 TS%, PER 29.6
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1359 » by Yank3525 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:31 pm

INKtastic wrote:
Yank3525 wrote:
mtron929 wrote:
No, that is your definition. I just disagree with this definition. I think it should be given out to the best player.


Well, Lebron hasn't been the best player in the regular season for about four years now.


LeBron post all star break - 27.6 points, 11.5 rebounds, 8.8 assists, .562 shooting, .632 TS%, PER 29.6


And, how does this refute my point?

Westbrook: 34.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 11.4 APG. .408 FG%, .562 TS%, PER 35.1

He isn't the best regular season performer anymore and hasn't been for years, which is expected since he is 32 and has 14 years of wear and tear.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#1360 » by INKtastic » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:38 pm

Yank3525 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:
Yank3525 wrote:
Well, Lebron hasn't been the best player in the regular season for about four years now.


LeBron post all star break - 27.6 points, 11.5 rebounds, 8.8 assists, .562 shooting, .632 TS%, PER 29.6


And, how does this refute my point?

Westbrook: 34.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 11.4 APG. .408 FG%, .562 TS%, PER 35.1

He isn't the best regular season performer anymore and hasn't been for years, which is expected since he is 32 and has 14 years of wear and tear.


Wow, that's ridiculous. As long as LeBron is the best player in June (or 2nd best to Kyrie, who has really broken out lately), I'm happy. I just voted for Westbook in the poll.
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