2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

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Who will win MVP?

Curry
12
3%
Durant
3
1%
Harden
112
31%
LeBron
42
12%
Leonard
60
17%
Westbrook
109
30%
Other
20
6%
 
Total votes: 358

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#301 » by bwgood77 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:04 pm

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
So an MVP can't be on a lower seed, but shouldn't be on too good of a team, either? I'm loving this arbitrary threshold that seems to change based on agenda.


I think the point is that the people who DO vote for Warriors players will not all vote for the same one and will essentially split the votes for them, allowing one of Harden or Westbrook to win.


I mean, I guess. But is this THAT different than LeBron winning MVPs with Bosh and Wade, or Durant winning his with Westbrook and Ibaka?


Yes, because none of those other guys were MVP caliber at that time. MAYBE Wade was an MVP caliber player, but those seasons he was clearly behind LeBron.

Durant would probably be the guy who would be most deserving and some may not vote for him simply because of his free agency decision, whether that is a valid excuse either. I mean Rose won over LeBron the first year he was in Miami probably partly or mostly for the same reason.
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#302 » by K_chile22 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:08 pm

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
So an MVP can't be on a lower seed, but shouldn't be on too good of a team, either? I'm loving this arbitrary threshold that seems to change based on agenda.


I think the point is that the people who DO vote for Warriors players will not all vote for the same one and will essentially split the votes for them, allowing one of Harden or Westbrook to win.


I mean, I guess. But is this THAT different than LeBron winning MVPs with Bosh and Wade, or Durant winning his with Westbrook and Ibaka?

As I clearly pointed out, KD won in a season where Russ only played about half the season. And it is VERY different from Bron's MVP. He was very clearly the top dog there, and the top dog in the league, whereas a lot of people think KD is over Steph.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#303 » by ken6199 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:58 pm

KD not only missing his wingman that year, but also had a monster streak of 25 games of scoring at least 25 points or more, surpassing MJ. Talk all his efficiency and defensive improvement all you want this season, that scoring streak is simply one solid narrative the voters will not let go.

Just like Westbrook's triple double averaging this year.

That's just how it works. I never remember one day I open nba.com seeing a titled article named 'some dude had a 60% TS over his past 12 4th quarters blah blah blah'. Voters do drill down to further stats, but they care more about those 3-4 first level narratives when it comes to this award.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#304 » by PeptoKlepto » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:52 am

bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I think the point is that the people who DO vote for Warriors players will not all vote for the same one and will essentially split the votes for them, allowing one of Harden or Westbrook to win.


I mean, I guess. But is this THAT different than LeBron winning MVPs with Bosh and Wade, or Durant winning his with Westbrook and Ibaka?


Yes, because none of those other guys were MVP caliber at that time. MAYBE Wade was an MVP caliber player, but those seasons he was clearly behind LeBron.

Durant would probably be the guy who would be most deserving and some may not vote for him simply because of his free agency decision, whether that is a valid excuse either. I mean Rose won over LeBron the first year he was in Miami probably partly or mostly for the same reason.


Wade was an MVP caliber player. In fact, I believe he got some votes the first year LeBron won in Miami. Westbrook was also an MVP caliber player. Bosh/Ibaka/Draymond all in the next level at their primes.

While yes, this Warriors team is better than those teams - but when does the threshold change? At what point?
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#305 » by PeptoKlepto » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:53 am

ken6199 wrote:KD not only missing his wingman that year, but also had a monster streak of 25 games of scoring at least 25 points or more, surpassing MJ. Talk all his efficiency and defensive improvement all you want this season, that scoring streak is simply one solid narrative the voters will not let go.

Just like Westbrook's triple double averaging this year.

That's just how it works. I never remember one day I open nba.com seeing a titled article named 'some dude had a 60% TS over his past 12 4th quarters blah blah blah'. Voters do drill down to further stats, but they care more about those 3-4 first level narratives when it comes to this award.


Again, it seems as though the threshold changes year to year based on agenda. In that case, why don't you think Westbrook is the lead dog over Harden? Since so much emphasis is being place on supporting casts.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#306 » by RCM88x » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:55 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
I mean, I guess. But is this THAT different than LeBron winning MVPs with Bosh and Wade, or Durant winning his with Westbrook and Ibaka?


Yes, because none of those other guys were MVP caliber at that time. MAYBE Wade was an MVP caliber player, but those seasons he was clearly behind LeBron.

Durant would probably be the guy who would be most deserving and some may not vote for him simply because of his free agency decision, whether that is a valid excuse either. I mean Rose won over LeBron the first year he was in Miami probably partly or mostly for the same reason.


Wade was an MVP caliber player. In fact, I believe he got some votes the first year LeBron won in Miami. Westbrook was also an MVP caliber player. Bosh/Ibaka/Draymond all in the next level at their primes.

While yes, this Warriors team is better than those teams - but when does the threshold change? At what point?


Wade had 0 first place votes, 1 2nd place vote and 24 points overall.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/3/2152070/derrick-rose-2011-mvp-award-vote
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#307 » by PeptoKlepto » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:57 am

RCM88x wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Yes, because none of those other guys were MVP caliber at that time. MAYBE Wade was an MVP caliber player, but those seasons he was clearly behind LeBron.

Durant would probably be the guy who would be most deserving and some may not vote for him simply because of his free agency decision, whether that is a valid excuse either. I mean Rose won over LeBron the first year he was in Miami probably partly or mostly for the same reason.


Wade was an MVP caliber player. In fact, I believe he got some votes the first year LeBron won in Miami. Westbrook was also an MVP caliber player. Bosh/Ibaka/Draymond all in the next level at their primes.

While yes, this Warriors team is better than those teams - but when does the threshold change? At what point?


Wade had 0 first place votes, 1 2nd place vote and 24 points overall.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/3/2152070/derrick-rose-2011-mvp-award-vote


Not the year I was talking about.

But thanks, I already know that Wade was an MVP-caliber player.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#308 » by bwgood77 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:02 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
Wade was an MVP caliber player. In fact, I believe he got some votes the first year LeBron won in Miami. Westbrook was also an MVP caliber player. Bosh/Ibaka/Draymond all in the next level at their primes.

While yes, this Warriors team is better than those teams - but when does the threshold change? At what point?


Wade had 0 first place votes, 1 2nd place vote and 24 points overall.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/3/2152070/derrick-rose-2011-mvp-award-vote


Not the year I was talking about.

But thanks, I already know that Wade was an MVP-caliber player.


I said he was an MVP caliber player. But LeBron was clearly the lead guy on the team with Wade. Wade may have gotten more votes the first year LeBron was there because of the LeBron backlash, that Durant might receive in this year's voting.

I just think it's tougher when you have multiple players that are almost equally deserving from the same team (and the one guy most deserving likely to lose votes simply because some voters may think he took the easy road switching teams) than two clear cut guys leading other teams? Not sure why this is that tough to understand.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#309 » by RCM88x » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:04 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
Wade was an MVP caliber player. In fact, I believe he got some votes the first year LeBron won in Miami. Westbrook was also an MVP caliber player. Bosh/Ibaka/Draymond all in the next level at their primes.

While yes, this Warriors team is better than those teams - but when does the threshold change? At what point?


Wade had 0 first place votes, 1 2nd place vote and 24 points overall.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/3/2152070/derrick-rose-2011-mvp-award-vote


Not the year I was talking about.

But thanks, I already know that Wade was an MVP-caliber player.


In '12 Wade had 1 4th place vote and 3 5th place votes for 6 total points. An 11th place finish.

http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2012/05/12/who-else-was-voted-mvp-ballot-breakdown-here/
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#310 » by K_chile22 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:09 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
I mean, I guess. But is this THAT different than LeBron winning MVPs with Bosh and Wade, or Durant winning his with Westbrook and Ibaka?


Yes, because none of those other guys were MVP caliber at that time. MAYBE Wade was an MVP caliber player, but those seasons he was clearly behind LeBron.

Durant would probably be the guy who would be most deserving and some may not vote for him simply because of his free agency decision, whether that is a valid excuse either. I mean Rose won over LeBron the first year he was in Miami probably partly or mostly for the same reason.


Wade was an MVP caliber player. In fact, I believe he got some votes the first year LeBron won in Miami. Westbrook was also an MVP caliber player. Bosh/Ibaka/Draymond all in the next level at their primes.

While yes, this Warriors team is better than those teams - but when does the threshold change? At what point?

Bosh and Ibaka were never as good as Draymond. Bosh was better in a vacuum but not as a 3rd guy. And why do you keep ignoring the fact that Russ missed almost 40 games that year?

Kd V Curry is a real discussion this season. Some people think KD is better and will vote for him. Some think Curry is better and will vote for him. I'm sorry.

Bron V Wade was not. It's not that difficult.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#311 » by PeptoKlepto » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:41 am

bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Wade had 0 first place votes, 1 2nd place vote and 24 points overall.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/3/2152070/derrick-rose-2011-mvp-award-vote


Not the year I was talking about.

But thanks, I already know that Wade was an MVP-caliber player.


I said he was an MVP caliber player. But LeBron was clearly the lead guy on the team with Wade. Wade may have gotten more votes the first year LeBron was there because of the LeBron backlash, that Durant might receive in this year's voting.

I just think it's tougher when you have multiple players that are almost equally deserving from the same team (and the one guy most deserving likely to lose votes simply because some voters may think he took the easy road switching teams) than two clear cut guys leading other teams? Not sure why this is that tough to understand.


I don't know how you quantify 'lead guy'. Durant and Steph both have 'lead guy' numbers. Steph is killing almost everyone in the advanced/impact stats as well. Why is that being devalued?
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#312 » by bwgood77 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:46 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
Not the year I was talking about.

But thanks, I already know that Wade was an MVP-caliber player.


I said he was an MVP caliber player. But LeBron was clearly the lead guy on the team with Wade. Wade may have gotten more votes the first year LeBron was there because of the LeBron backlash, that Durant might receive in this year's voting.

I just think it's tougher when you have multiple players that are almost equally deserving from the same team (and the one guy most deserving likely to lose votes simply because some voters may think he took the easy road switching teams) than two clear cut guys leading other teams? Not sure why this is that tough to understand.


I don't know how you quantify 'lead guy'. Durant and Steph both have 'lead guy' numbers. Steph is killing almost everyone in the advanced/impact stats as well. Why is that being devalued?


It's not. So maybe he is now the lead guy, and maybe you are right and he has a chance. It's just my take a Warriors guy won't get it this year. I'm not devaluing anyone, just telling you I think it's improbable because of split votes and possibly some backlash from KD's decision, which may hurt them all. They could end up all voting for Curry. So maybe you are right.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#313 » by PeptoKlepto » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:51 am

bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I said he was an MVP caliber player. But LeBron was clearly the lead guy on the team with Wade. Wade may have gotten more votes the first year LeBron was there because of the LeBron backlash, that Durant might receive in this year's voting.

I just think it's tougher when you have multiple players that are almost equally deserving from the same team (and the one guy most deserving likely to lose votes simply because some voters may think he took the easy road switching teams) than two clear cut guys leading other teams? Not sure why this is that tough to understand.


I don't know how you quantify 'lead guy'. Durant and Steph both have 'lead guy' numbers. Steph is killing almost everyone in the advanced/impact stats as well. Why is that being devalued?


It's not. So maybe he is now the lead guy, and maybe you are right and he has a chance. It's just my take a Warriors guy won't get it this year. I'm not devaluing anyone, just telling you I think it's improbable because of split votes and possibly some backlash from KD's decision, which may hurt them all. They could end up all voting for Curry. So maybe you are right.


I mean, I agree it's not gonna happen just because the narrative is too against them this year, and I think Russell Westbrook and James Harden are the top two dogs in the race anyways. I'm just trying to figure what the threshold between "his team is too weak" and "his team is too strong" is that seems to change on a year-by-year basis.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#314 » by anglewings » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:51 am

Lebron got a MVP vote from Billups on ESPN, bout damn time.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#315 » by bwgood77 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:56 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
I don't know how you quantify 'lead guy'. Durant and Steph both have 'lead guy' numbers. Steph is killing almost everyone in the advanced/impact stats as well. Why is that being devalued?


It's not. So maybe he is now the lead guy, and maybe you are right and he has a chance. It's just my take a Warriors guy won't get it this year. I'm not devaluing anyone, just telling you I think it's improbable because of split votes and possibly some backlash from KD's decision, which may hurt them all. They could end up all voting for Curry. So maybe you are right.


I mean, I agree it's not gonna happen just because the narrative is too against them this year, and I think Russell Westbrook and James Harden are the top two dogs in the race anyways. I'm just trying to figure what the threshold between "his team is too weak" and "his team is too strong" is that seems to change on a year-by-year basis.


I agree it's ridiculous and the story or narrative too often plays a part, but it is what it is I guess. And you guys have enough good for you I wouldn't be complaining too much at this point. :D
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#316 » by PeptoKlepto » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:03 am

bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
It's not. So maybe he is now the lead guy, and maybe you are right and he has a chance. It's just my take a Warriors guy won't get it this year. I'm not devaluing anyone, just telling you I think it's improbable because of split votes and possibly some backlash from KD's decision, which may hurt them all. They could end up all voting for Curry. So maybe you are right.


I mean, I agree it's not gonna happen just because the narrative is too against them this year, and I think Russell Westbrook and James Harden are the top two dogs in the race anyways. I'm just trying to figure what the threshold between "his team is too weak" and "his team is too strong" is that seems to change on a year-by-year basis.


I agree it's ridiculous and the story or narrative too often plays a part, but it is what it is I guess. And you guys have enough good for you I wouldn't be complaining too much at this point. :D


Touche ;)

I've made my peace with this our not winning anything individually this year - but I just don't want it to be held against them moving forward. There's nothing wrong with being on a great team and it shouldn't devalue your position compared to other players.
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#317 » by Hero » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:45 pm

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
So an MVP can't be on a lower seed, but shouldn't be on too good of a team, either? I'm loving this arbitrary threshold that seems to change based on agenda.


I think the point is that the people who DO vote for Warriors players will not all vote for the same one and will essentially split the votes for them, allowing one of Harden or Westbrook to win.


I mean, I guess. But is this THAT different than LeBron winning MVPs with Bosh and Wade, or Durant winning his with Westbrook and Ibaka?


You really need an explanation on this?

LeBron was miles ahead of Bosh and Wade in terms of his contribution to the team. Same can't be said for Curry or KD.
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Re: RE: Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#318 » by Bergmaniac » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:16 pm

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Not even remotely close to being true. Roberson is good, just not good on offense. He's a fringe starter, but far from worst player in the league.


Not good on offense isn't even close to accurately describing it. He is the worst offensive player in the league, name someone worse. He's a good defender, not great. He is 30th in defensive win shares, you don't win with an incredibly bad small forward who rates decent on the other end starting for your team. Westbrook is surrounded by trash.

He is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Any team would be happy to have him. Steven Adams is good. Oladipo has been better than I thought. Kanter is a good sixth man. The roster isn't great but it's far from trash.

Any team would be happy to have him on a cheap contract for situational use, sure. But his shooting this year has been so bad that even his great D can't make up for it. 24% from 3 is just abysmal especially since literally all of his 3s are wide open. I don't see many teams where he'd get anywhere close to 30 MPG.

OKC's roster isn't trash, but the fit is very poor. They have one of the best slash and kick players in the league as their superstar but they have surrounded him with players who suck at shooting. Ever since Sabonis unlikely hot streak from 3 ended around the beginning of December, the Thunder's starting lineup has had 2 players who are constantly left wide open on the perimeter because of their shooting struggles (Sabonis and Roberson) which allows the opponents to wall off the middle and makes it really hard for Westbrook to get to the rim or get the ball to Adams on a pick and roll for a dunk. In the last two months Sabonis has been shooting 20.6% from 3 and Roberson has been shooting 18.6%. Even Oladipo has been only at 32.5% in that period. Their best shooter is a rookie whose defense limits his playing time (Abrines). Grant's percentage from 3 is good this season but his release is slow, he passes on good looks too often (only 1.5 attempts attempts in 21 MPG) and he is only good from the corners (27.8% on above the break 3s) which limits his effectiveness as a floor spacer and shooter. Morrow for some reason has forgotten how to shoot from 3 this season (29% for the season). In the last month Sabonis and Roberson have made a grand total of 9 3s.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#319 » by bmurph128 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:00 pm

PeptoKlepto wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
I mean, I agree it's not gonna happen just because the narrative is too against them this year, and I think Russell Westbrook and James Harden are the top two dogs in the race anyways. I'm just trying to figure what the threshold between "his team is too weak" and "his team is too strong" is that seems to change on a year-by-year basis.


I agree it's ridiculous and the story or narrative too often plays a part, but it is what it is I guess. And you guys have enough good for you I wouldn't be complaining too much at this point. :D


Touche ;)

I've made my peace with this our not winning anything individually this year - but I just don't want it to be held against them moving forward. There's nothing wrong with being on a great team and it shouldn't devalue your position compared to other players.



You also have to remember that there is no precedent for the Warriors situation. While Wade was MVP caliber, he never won one. Steph won twice, KD once. And they're both in their primes - in LeBron's first year Wade might have been a slightly better all around player than Curry is now, but you could easily argue that he was not.

No actual MVP winners have ever been on the same team in their prime, so there's not going to be a comparison. With how the award has transformed to "the best player on the best team", you can see where the Warriors may never win one with their situation. There is no clear cut best player. You can used advanced stats for Curry, but KD's defensive impact is what has launched this team IMO. Without that defensive impact they could have been in a world of hurt this year - I certainly didn't expect KD to try on defense, much less play this well.

Simply put, if you go back to previous years, the most apt comparison is KD and WB, and you can see that both finish with votes, but neither won except for the year WB went down and now maybe this year when KD is gone. When you have two top 5 players, the votes will get split.

Even though there's no consolation for this, I would imagine that the Warriors as a team will get the most MVP votes if you tally up all the players that receive votes.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2 

Post#320 » by Yank3525 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:10 pm

ken6199 wrote:KD not only missing his wingman that year, but also had a monster streak of 25 games of scoring at least 25 points or more, surpassing MJ. Talk all his efficiency and defensive improvement all you want this season, that scoring streak is simply one solid narrative the voters will not let go.

Just like Westbrook's triple double averaging this year.

That's just how it works. I never remember one day I open nba.com seeing a titled article named 'some dude had a 60% TS over his past 12 4th quarters blah blah blah'. Voters do drill down to further stats, but they care more about those 3-4 first level narratives when it comes to this award.


Yup.

Lebron's 2012 MVP is the only one that didn't really have much of a narrative. He was just the best guy and no one else did anything of note during the regular season.

I think Durant has been the best overall player, but Harden or Westbrook is likely going to be the MVP. They have the numbers and a solid narrative, Lebron might make a late push, but still no and no one really cares about Kawhi or IT.

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