Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1...

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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#41 » by mrmsix6 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:54 pm

Black Jack wrote:I feel like the elite guys right now are so amazing its hard to imagine how someone could truly separate. LeBron has slipped out of god mode due to athletic decline, and everyone else at the top is pretty much playing near as good as can be humanly expected. Bron is still probably the best and it's a testament to him being a legit GOAT candidate that you can say that.


and yet, 27/11/6 on 71% TS so far in February. Any athletic decline Lebron has seen has been mitigated by his ever-improving, and at this point legit savant-esque BBIQ. He's even quietly up to 39% from 3 this year.

This isn't even his final form! :lol:

Lebron is the MVP. He means more to his team (and franchise) than any other player in the league, his stats are still right up there with the other candidates, and the team record is there. If we're drafting teams for the Finals being played tomorrow, is anyone really going to pick Harden/Westbrook/Kawhi over Lebron? Is it even close?

To me, the only way Lebron would not be the MVP is if you can't get over him not playing at 100% all the time during the regular season. I get that concern, but it still does not change the fact the he is still, at 32 years old, the best player in the league by an appreciable margin.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#42 » by Blame Rasho » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:55 pm

I love him more than a fish loves water , but by saying that you are marginalizing the historic seasons that Westbrook and Harden are doing.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be... 

Post#43 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:15 pm

With the rebuttals against Kawhi coming in a form relating to what would happen without him compared to other players I feel I need to say:

1) before Kawhi Pop had basically made clear that he'd retire with the Duncan core. It's really not an understatement to say at this point that Kawhi is the reason why the Pop is still putting with the brutal NBA schedule, and so if you believe Pop is more valuable than Kawhi or something like that do keep in mind Kawhi is the reason the Spurs are keeping on.

2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#44 » by bondom34 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#45 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:25 pm

LivingLegend wrote:The Rockets havent made a whole lotta noise recently and if they struggle down the stretch to really cement themselves--that also weakens Hardens chances with players like Kawhi/Durant/LeBron playing and having their teams in god mode.


You know Houston has a better record than Cleveland ya?
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#46 » by inDe_eD » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:28 pm

Blame Rasho wrote:I love him more than a fish loves water , but by saying that you are marginalizing the historic seasons that Westbrook and Harden are doing.


You really think so? Kawhi's going to be very close to 50-40-90, with 26 PPG, on the best defensive team in the league, that happens to also win 63 games. That's pretty historic in its own right, no?
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#47 » by inDe_eD » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:31 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:The Rockets havent made a whole lotta noise recently and if they struggle down the stretch to really cement themselves--that also weakens Hardens chances with players like Kawhi/Durant/LeBron playing and having their teams in god mode.


You know Houston has a better record than Cleveland ya?


They're actually behind Cleveland now in win% (and Cleveland has 3 less losses).
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#48 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:32 pm

mrmsix6 wrote:
Black Jack wrote:To me, the only way Lebron would not be the MVP is if you can't get over him not playing at 100% all the time during the regular season. I get that concern, but it still does not change the fact the he is still, at 32 years old, the best player in the league by an appreciable margin.


I dont really see the point of awarding someone for "what they could do" vs. "what they actually do" night after night. Lebron's team has the worst record currently on the non-Westbrook candidates. He plays some barely excusably bad defense in the regular season (gets blown by and instead of recovering just starts yelling and pointing), he whines about how he's never won a DPOY. I agree that he's the best player in the world, he sorta laid that argument to rest in the finals. But you don't win MVP for that, you have to out play and out win the other candidates and right now he's not doing that.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#49 » by Patches Perry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:33 pm

I've been surprised at the lack of Leonard for MVP support. They're on pace to win 60+ and he is the only all-star on that team. Best player on that team on both ends by a good margin. It's either him or Harden for me at this point. I wouldn't be upset with either. I also wouldn't be upset with Westbrook, but I'm an OKC fan. Objectively, I think Westbrook is slightly below those two.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#50 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:33 pm

inDe_eD wrote:
jamaalstar21 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:The Rockets havent made a whole lotta noise recently and if they struggle down the stretch to really cement themselves--that also weakens Hardens chances with players like Kawhi/Durant/LeBron playing and having their teams in god mode.


You know Houston has a better record than Cleveland ya?


They're actually behind Cleveland now in win% (and Cleveland has 3 less losses).


whoops true! still hard to argue that designates Cleveland in "god mode" compared to the Rockets.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#51 » by mtron929 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:34 pm

I really like Zach Lowe but this is just a lazy way to argue that someone should be #1. In general, if you are to argue that someone deserves the top #1 spot over all the other players, then you need to argue his case against the supposed top 5 players in the league. For example, saying that he scores 26 points per game should not considered to be a positive argument in favor of Leonard given that in the context of this particular conversation, he is behind 2 or 3 guys who are also in the running for the MVP. But he is masquerading this as a positive factor, and this is just not acceptable, especially from someone of his caliber.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#52 » by inDe_eD » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:35 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
whoops true! still hard to argue that designates Cleveland in "god mode" compared to the Rockets.


Yea your point definitely still stands.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#53 » by mtron929 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:39 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:The easy solution here is to add a "Best Player Award". Not most valuable, not outstanding, just best.

The question then is, does Leonard beat Lebron James.


I feel like the MVP should just be the best player award and they could simply give it to Lebron 8-9 times in a row and give him the respect that he deserves to being consistently the best player in the NBA.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#54 » by inDe_eD » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:40 pm

mtron929 wrote:I really like Zach Lowe but this is just a lazy way to argue that someone should be #1. In general, if you are to argue that someone deserves the top #1 spot over all the other players, then you need to argue his case against the supposed top 5 players in the league. For example, saying that he scores 26 points per game should not considered to be a positive argument in favor of Leonard given that in the context of this particular conversation, he is behind 2 or 3 guys who are also in the running for the MVP. But he is masquerading this as a positive factor, and this is just not acceptable, especially from someone of his caliber.


I think you'd be right if this was an article, but it's just a transcript from his pod with Howard Beck and it was mostly off the cuff. His general point was still accurate though. Kawhi's is now one of the top scorers, the Spurs are gonna win a lot of games, and he's still great on defense.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#55 » by ken6199 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:42 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
Winsome Gerbil wrote:...because I spend too much time loving me some advanced stats.

The winning stuff is nearly irrelevant until you can convince me if he got hurt the Spurs would collapse to the degree that the Thunder or Rockets would if Westbrook/Harden got hurt.


I personally think the Spurs would be screwed without Leonard. Let's be honest, he's surrounded by a ton of good role players and a declining Aldridge. They may still take out the bottom feeders but I think they'd be a train wreck. Leonard's numbers aren't as flashy but 26 a night on near 50/40/90 is MVP stuff...and the record backs it up. Maybe if Leonard averaged 6 turnovers a night, he'd be getting more MVP buzz :roll:


Ya let's not act like the Spurs are some super team. The 2nd best player on the team just had a thread on here talking about how much he's regressed this year. Just look at the guys getting minutes on the team after Kawhi and Aldridge, you got Green, Mills, Parker, Gasol and Lee. You got role players and really aging stars. Harden us surrounded by a good amount of good role players himself. Take Kawhi off SA and they definitely don't have the 2nd best record anymore.


I fully agree with this, and you can say this to any MVP candidate, so I don't think it's validate. The real question is, who hurts more? That's why the other guy just said, 'if he got hurt the Spurs would collapse to the degree that the Thunder or Rockets would if Westbrook/Harden got hurt.'

Forget about the on/off stats for a sec, just use eye tests, watch those Thunder and Rockets team play without Westbrook and Harden. Man it hurts your eyes. They can literally do nothing without their sole leader. Also, Harden is surrounded by a good amount of role players? Very true. Have to remember though, they are good role players just because of Harden. They are complimenting Harden. Remove Harden, there is not a whole lot they can do. Same for Westbrook, maybe Kanter can create a bit of offense by himself in low block but that's about it. That team is downright lottery without Westbrook same as Harden's Rockets.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#56 » by mtron929 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:46 pm

inDe_eD wrote:
mtron929 wrote:I really like Zach Lowe but this is just a lazy way to argue that someone should be #1. In general, if you are to argue that someone deserves the top #1 spot over all the other players, then you need to argue his case against the supposed top 5 players in the league. For example, saying that he scores 26 points per game should not considered to be a positive argument in favor of Leonard given that in the context of this particular conversation, he is behind 2 or 3 guys who are also in the running for the MVP. But he is masquerading this as a positive factor, and this is just not acceptable, especially from someone of his caliber.


I think you'd be right if this was an article, but it's just a transcript from his pod with Howard Beck and it was mostly off the cuff. His general point was still accurate though. Kawhi's is now one of the top scorers, the Spurs are gonna win a lot of games, and he's still great on defense.


Fair enough, if it was just off the cuff.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#57 » by Bergmaniac » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:54 pm

I have been baffled the whole season why Kawhi doesn't get more MVP buzz. His scoring numbers are great and his team's record is fantastic given the roster. I haven't watched the Spurs all that much so I don't know how much his defense has slipped but even if he's significantly worse than in his DPOY he's still a lot better on that end than Harden or Westbrook, let alone someone like Thomas who got a lot of MVP buzz lately.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#58 » by Shock Defeat » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:01 pm

Spurs roster is definitely better than Houston's. The Spurs have 6 players above 15.0 PER, the Rockets only have 4.
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Re: Zach Lowe:" I am not sure Kawhi isn't the MVP of the whole league" "should be #1... 

Post#59 » by Chinook » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:19 pm

I really hate the argument that Kawhi's not the MVP because his teammates is better. Guess what? His team as a whole is better too. If OKC, SAS, HOU and BOS were all tied in record, then it would make sense. But the Spurs are having the second-best regular season in the league. Kawhi's doing more with more.
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Re: Zach Lowe: 

Post#60 » by KayDee35 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:21 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:2) I don't think it makes sense to praise a player leading a mediocre team by playing in a style that caused the conflicts that resulted in the team losing its other big talent. You want to say Westbrook is the MVP because of what he does when he's on the floor, cool, but the team has nothing else left precisely because of the way He sucks up all the oxygen in the room.


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This isn't true. And I don't even have Westbrook as MVP.

But continually spreading this idea is a falsehood considering now the player he sucked said oxygen from is doing the same in a new place.


Let me get this straight: A guy who is posting a higher TS% than LeBron's best season, is 2nd in WS/48, 2nd in total WS, 5th in DWS, 7th in DRtg, 5th in VORP, 10th in Blocks, and 5th in RPM on the lowest USG% of his career is sucking air out of the room?

If Durant is sucking all the oxygen then you must be thrilled that he chose to leave. Sounds like OKC dodged a bullet. Now GS is stuck with this bum. SAD!

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