It's time to say it: cp3 no longer matters

[clippertown]

CP3 is a great player but very limited. He is slow and calculating and often resistant to shooting. The problem with the Clips is not really CP3 but rather that the team outside of CP3 is plain horrible. He needs a slow calculating team around him, not racehorses like Griffin and DJ. I would think he would dominate on the Spurs or Memphis but the Clips need a fast and a little bit wild PG to make the most of its other superstars.

I hope we trade him to the Cavs for Kyrie or trade Griffin for a slower player like Love and maybe a decent SF.

Either way, the Clips need to re-sign their stars to max deals and then trade one of them before the deadline next year. Otherwise, it's back to the cellar we go.

[LikeABosh]

I hope we trade him to the Cavs for Kyrie or trade Griffin for a slower player like Love and maybe a decent SF.

Two trades Cleveland says no to

[clippertown]

I hope we trade him to the Cavs for Kyrie or trade Griffin for a slower player like Love and maybe a decent SF.

Two trades Cleveland says no to

Cleveland has its own problems. There are plenty of players we can trade CP3 or Griffin for if they were signed to 5 year deals. These were just examples.

[millslapper]

A guy who can lead a team to a title as the best player, or at least has a chance: Lebron, KD, Westbrook, Harden, Curry (last 2 year version if its still there), kawhi....that's about it. Those are the guys that matter today.....it stinks, but nobody else has a chance, including westbrook this year. Paul is in a secondary group. Not a knock on him, but sick of people pointing to his RPM and saying he's in that class. He's too small, doesn't shoot enough, and always shows up his teammates and loses his cool.

So which Westbrook has a chance this year?

Westbrook has the talent to do it, not the team this year tho. I'm sure you can argue for others, but that was what I was saying there with westbrook.

no, you completely contradicted yourself. First Westbrook has a chance and then one sentence later he has no chance.

[bondom34]

I hope we trade him to the Cavs for Kyrie or trade Griffin for a slower player like Love and maybe a decent SF.

Two trades Cleveland says no to

Eh....not so sure there.

[Pennebaker]

and never did anything in new Orleans.

Uh. He was the league MVP when he was in New Orleans in '08 (for my money). He piloted a 56 win team in the West with average teammates and an average coach. So he's really good. If Cleveland had Chris Paul at PG instead of Kyrie Irving they'd probably be a 70 win team.

I think the Clippers just haven't been well constructed. Or you could just blame everything on Blake Griffin. He was supposed to be a lot better than this.

[reborn123]

Clippers should be happy they have CP3. He's the best thing that ever happened to them in their entire franchise history. Without him they'd be an annual lottery team just like before for the last decades.

Clippers fans are expectation too high, should be happy with you're competitive team while you have it, because you never know when it'll be all done. And once its over you'll be sad/mad/frustrated wishing you just enjoyed the ride while it lasted. This is not some all time great franchise that has a championship standard like the Lakers or Celtics. This is the Clippers.

The worst sports franchise in North American history before CP3 came and changed everything. Could they have done better at times , yeah but overall CP3 has been a HUGE success and blessing for this pitiful team. nfs. This is the truth especially when you look at the Clippers history since even the 70s, the ownership, fan interest, reputation etc. etc. I think people are forgetting how bad the Clippers reputation was before CP3. You'd talk to even non basketball fans or non sports fans from LA and it was an absolute given that the Clippers were a walking meme. A complete Joke. This is no exaggeration either. Everyone and their grandmothers knew this.

Sometimes fans and people need to just enjoy the ride while it lasts instead of always looking for bigger better greater things. It's like a old relationship. Things are solid, but people what that new exciting fresh feeling back. They look around and see the shiny new toys around the league like the Nikola Jokics, The Porzingis, The Greek Freaks, the Hardens and Westbrooks putting up Triple double numbers etc. Yet they forget the strong foundation that was built(foundation especially in comparison to how things were before) although things feel a little stale. They want the fresh feeling back. That Lob City excitement. The feeling they had when the team was first put together and their fortunes changed. When they were the brand new thing in town. CP3 is not perfect, but he's mighty hard to replace.

The real Clippers fans, the ones that were down since during their dark ages should be very happy and show CP3 extreme gratitude. He should be treated like Kobe Bryant by them.(Just the Clippers fans, not the rest of LA)

I'm not sure I buy this.

First of all, Blake Griffin was the one who changed the Clippers. The only reason CP3 even considered coming to the Clippers was because of how great Blake was playing.

Also, it's frustrating to have one of the best rosters in the league and to get no results. The Clippers seem to have enough talent to win a championship but can never get it done. Their choke jobs against OKC and Houston being the prime examples. And a lot of that is on Paul.

And also, Elton Brand took the Clippers just as far as Paul did. Even got them to a game 7 vs a better Suns team in the 2nd round. So it's not like hes the first one to turn them around.

Don't forget the chokejob against Memphis in 2013. They were up 2-0 with HCA. With Westbrook out, they could have been, rather should have been in the Western Conference Finals and not the Grizzlies.

[Lost92Bricks]

Don't forget the chokejob against Memphis in 2013. They were up 2-0 with HCA. With Westbrook out, they could have been, rather should have been in the Western Conference Finals and not the Grizzlies.

That wasn't a chokejob. Blake Griffin injured his ankle badly after game 4 with the series tied 2-2. He barely played in games 5 and 6. Clippers were shorthanded.

[reborn123]

Don't forget the chokejob against Memphis in 2013. They were up 2-0 with HCA. With Westbrook out, they could have been, rather should have been in the Western Conference Finals and not the Grizzlies.

That wasn't a chokejob. Blake Griffin injured his ankle badly after game 4 with the series tied 2-2. He barely played in games 5 and 6. Clippers were shorthanded.

The Clippers should have swept the Grizz during that series. They had a much more talented team than the Grizz at the time; Grizzlies got crushed by the Clippers during the regular season. Even if you say Deandre wasn't playing at the level he does now, neither did Gasol nor Conley. We didn't have proper shooting and our lead guy was ZBo who was a bit weathered by that time.

[The_Hater]

CP was playing so well before he got hurt earlier this season that people were putting him in the MVP talk. Now he's completely irrelevant?

He's still a top 10 player in my book, those who complain about him are generally criticizing him for not being as good as top 2-3 players.

[mtron929]

Clippers with Paul ON: +12.7 net rating
Clippers with Paul OFF: -5.6 net rating

Post All-Star Break...

Clippers with Paul ON: +3.3 net rating
Clippers with Paul OFF: -15.2 net rating

Sure seems like Paul still matters, but that's just me.

He obviously matters to his team. I'm saying matters as in the nba landscape, like this guy can lead you to a championship. I once thought Paul could, but think that time has past. He's just a borderline all star at this point

Someone needs to tell you there is an enormous gulf between player who can lead their team to a championship and "borderline all-star".

I'm not convinced Paul couldn't still lead a team to a title, but ignoring that even. Here are the players who truly led their teams to the NBA title over the past three decades: (so we are excluding the most recent Spurs title, the 04 Pistons, and the Bad Boy Pistons)

Lebron James
Steph Curry
Dirk
Kobe
Kevin Garnett
Duncan
Shaq
Jordan
Dream
Magic
Bird

edit: Wade --- so embarrassed I missed him. Props to Tim Hardaway for catching my mistake. And yeah another all-time great player hurt only by a lack of longevity due to injury rather than level of play.


What do all these players have in common? They are all (excepting Curry atm, but he's on his way) at absolute worst one of the 15 best players of all-time, all of those but KG and Dirk are top ten players of all-time and Mike and Lebron and Duncan top 5 players and legit contenders for being the GOAT.

So that means current players like Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Davis all must be "borderline all-star" to you. And I hate to think your opinion of careers like Karl Malone and Sir Charles that never ended in titles because their teams weren't good enough to beat Mike in his prime.....

I think the question is whether or not CP3 is slighlty overrated. Not that he sucks. According to ESPN's all time greatest 100 players list from 2016, Dwyane Wade was ranked 27, and CP3 was ranked 29. So in the grand scheme of things, the ESPN list has Wade and CP3 as pretty much interchangeable players that are certainly on the same tier. However, I just think that this is overrating CP3's career and his achievements.

That should be the conversation. Not whether CP3 sucks or not.

[hardenASG13]

So which Westbrook has a chance this year?

Westbrook has the talent to do it, not the team this year tho. I'm sure you can argue for others, but that was what I was saying there with westbrook.

no, you completely contradicted yourself. First Westbrook has a chance and then one sentence later he has no chance.

Yeah I realize it was confusing after reading it that's why I clarified it......he has the talent, with the rest of the guys there, where he can be your best player and you have a chance to win. He's the only one out of that group who doesn't have the supporting cast to make it happen this year.

[hardenASG13]

He obviously matters to his team. I'm saying matters as in the nba landscape, like this guy can lead you to a championship. I once thought Paul could, but think that time has past. He's just a borderline all star at this point

Someone needs to tell you there is an enormous gulf between player who can lead their team to a championship and "borderline all-star".

I'm not convinced Paul couldn't still lead a team to a title, but ignoring that even. Here are the players who truly led their teams to the NBA title over the past three decades: (so we are excluding the most recent Spurs title, the 04 Pistons, and the Bad Boy Pistons)

Lebron James
Steph Curry
Dirk
Kobe
Kevin Garnett
Duncan
Shaq
Jordan
Dream
Magic
Bird

edit: Wade --- so embarrassed I missed him. Props to Tim Hardaway for catching my mistake. And yeah another all-time great player hurt only by a lack of longevity due to injury rather than level of play.


What do all these players have in common? They are all (excepting Curry atm, but he's on his way) at absolute worst one of the 15 best players of all-time, all of those but KG and Dirk are top ten players of all-time and Mike and Lebron and Duncan top 5 players and legit contenders for being the GOAT.

So that means current players like Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Davis all must be "borderline all-star" to you. And I hate to think your opinion of careers like Karl Malone and Sir Charles that never ended in titles because their teams weren't good enough to beat Mike in his prime.....

I think the question is whether or not CP3 is slighlty overrated. Not that he sucks. According to ESPN's all time greatest 100 players list from 2016, Dwyane Wade was ranked 27, and CP3 was ranked 29. So in the grand scheme of things, the ESPN list has Wade and CP3 as pretty much interchangeable players that are certainly on the same tier. However, I just think that this is overrating CP3's career and his achievements.

That should be the conversation. Not whether CP3 sucks or not.

Yes! Nobody is saying he's not good, the question was does he still matter (you can build around him and win)in today's nba landscape, which I say you can't. This is how it goes when you criticize cp3 tho, people who form their opinions based on the media constantly pumping a guy up are shocked when you challenge their perception of what he is by stating that his style can't compete with the studs who have emerged at his position. So many on here dismiss ideas like this because they are not the popular opinion without even thinking about them. Thats when they pull out the advanced stats, say things are moronic with no other argument, or begin arguing a completely seperate issue,etc. Some cant even comprehend the concept of when your best guy wont assert himself scoring when needed, it hurts and holds back your team. Anyone who played basketball at remotely high levels or coaches knows this to be true, as teams led by guys like this often lose to teams with more assertive, aggressive star players. When you play with a guy who you need to deliver buckets, who has the abilitybto do it, and he doesnt do it enough, you want him to do it more, for the teams success! Let him get his 20/11 /4 with terrible leadership, constantly showing up his teammates, and his high advanced stats because he doesn't shoot enough. It hasn't translated into much of anything.

[hardenASG13]

Actually they haven't. LA is 3-4 men deep. That's not a good roster. And his peak was better by far than anyone on the Spurs today, and probably Timmy too.


And not a single good player after those 4 while the Spurs run about 10 deep.



Actually it does. Hence why they're so dominant when he's on the court. They suck when he sits down, something that never happens to the Spurs. It's not because of his style, it's because his backup is his coach's son and Ray Felton.


Wait you want scoring and passing and start Tony Parker?
Whoa.

No, just no

Good analysis, A+. Good thread, would read again. Hot takez.

Thanks, and thanks for contributing by saying no just no without offering a counter or opinion of your own in regards to the actual point, then getting into a completely off topic argument with some guy about a hypothetical cp3 trade to the Spurs or something?

[og15]

Don't forget the chokejob against Memphis in 2013. They were up 2-0 with HCA. With Westbrook out, they could have been, rather should have been in the Western Conference Finals and not the Grizzlies.

That wasn't a chokejob. Blake Griffin injured his ankle badly after game 4 with the series tied 2-2. He barely played in games 5 and 6. Clippers were shorthanded.

The Clippers should have swept the Grizz during that series. They had a much more talented team than the Grizz at the time; Grizzlies got crushed by the Clippers during the regular season. Even if you say Deandre wasn't playing at the level he does now, neither did Gasol nor Conley. We didn't have proper shooting and our lead guy was ZBo who was a bit weathered by that time.

DeAndre was nowhere close to the player he was in the following years. Gasol was much better than him. Even Blake wasn't as good in 12-13 as he was in later years, Randolph was able to keep up with him back then still. In the regular season Randolph averaged 15/12 and shot 37% vs the Clippers and Blake averaged 14/7 and shot 44% vs Memphis. Both struggled with shooting. Odom declined for the Clippers as the year went on, he was bad on offense all season, but his defense started to decline too. We all know why now in hindsight, but back then we didn't really know what was going on.

Redick wasn't on the Clippers then, that was back when they had Billups, Willie Green, Jamal Crawford, Caron Butler and Matt Barnes on the wings. Billups missed almost the whole season while Willie Green started. Del Negro then inserted Billups back into the starting lineup for the playoffs. Billups was awful and actually hurt the team as he was worse on both ends than Green and made some crucial errors in some games.

Tony Allen was the Jamal Crawford kryptonite, well the playoffs and solid defenders tend to render him pretty ineffective in general. Paul scored 35 and 28 on very good shooting in those last two games and they lost both by double digits.

The Clippers performance against them in the regular season was based on having Blake and also having Willie Green helping as a role player as well as the great bench play. The thing was that though Blake struggled against Memphis, the battle between him and Zach also meant that Zach struggled once in a while too.

Interestingly the one game the Clippers lost to the Grizzlies during the regular season was the one game Billups played. Clippers fans complained about re-inserting Billups into the starting lineup late in the season when he returned. When the Clippers second best player wasn't useful after game 4 due to injury though, it's a huge difference. Why do you think the Grizzlies were so easily able to beat a Thunder team who if healthy would be much more talented? They took them out easily in 5 games with no Westbrook. VDN didn't have some dynamic offense. The whole offense was based on getting production from Paul and Griffin. Grizzlies like the Clippers were also a 56 win team. If the Grizzlies had Randolph playing 15 mpg and limping over the last two games while the Clippers had a healthy Griffin, the Grizzlies also lose.

[MartinToVaught]

Don't forget the chokejob against Memphis in 2013. They were up 2-0 with HCA. With Westbrook out, they could have been, rather should have been in the Western Conference Finals and not the Grizzlies.

That wasn't a chokejob. Blake Griffin injured his ankle badly after game 4 with the series tied 2-2. He barely played in games 5 and 6. Clippers were shorthanded.

CP3 choked in Games 3 and 4 before Blake's injury. The backdoor sweep was already in progress when Blake got hurt.

[MartinToVaught]

But Chinook isn't saying he expected Paul to "win the chip." He's saying he expected Paul to at least get past the second round of the playoffs a couple times by now. And he's had his chances. He's just choked all of them away.

Honest question to you, is Griffin the only player on the Clippers that you feel is a championship player?

It's tough to tell, really, since Blake has been held back by injuries and CP3's ball-dominant style for most of his career. When Blake is at his best - when he's aggressive on offense, dunking on people left and right and still finding ways to create for others - he is absolutely a championship player. And we've seen flashes of that version of Blake in both the regular season and playoffs. But instead of actually utilizing his full skillset, we've shoved him into a sidekick role that he isn't suited for so it can still be "Chris Paul's team." It doesn't help matters that Doc has been hell-bent on turning Blake into a soft jump-shooting big instead of accepting him as the player he is.

[mtron929]

Someone needs to tell you there is an enormous gulf between player who can lead their team to a championship and "borderline all-star".

I'm not convinced Paul couldn't still lead a team to a title, but ignoring that even. Here are the players who truly led their teams to the NBA title over the past three decades: (so we are excluding the most recent Spurs title, the 04 Pistons, and the Bad Boy Pistons)

Lebron James
Steph Curry
Dirk
Kobe
Kevin Garnett
Duncan
Shaq
Jordan
Dream
Magic
Bird

edit: Wade --- so embarrassed I missed him. Props to Tim Hardaway for catching my mistake. And yeah another all-time great player hurt only by a lack of longevity due to injury rather than level of play.


What do all these players have in common? They are all (excepting Curry atm, but he's on his way) at absolute worst one of the 15 best players of all-time, all of those but KG and Dirk are top ten players of all-time and Mike and Lebron and Duncan top 5 players and legit contenders for being the GOAT.

So that means current players like Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Davis all must be "borderline all-star" to you. And I hate to think your opinion of careers like Karl Malone and Sir Charles that never ended in titles because their teams weren't good enough to beat Mike in his prime.....

I think the question is whether or not CP3 is slighlty overrated. Not that he sucks. According to ESPN's all time greatest 100 players list from 2016, Dwyane Wade was ranked 27, and CP3 was ranked 29. So in the grand scheme of things, the ESPN list has Wade and CP3 as pretty much interchangeable players that are certainly on the same tier. However, I just think that this is overrating CP3's career and his achievements.

That should be the conversation. Not whether CP3 sucks or not.

Yes! Nobody is saying he's not good, the question was does he still matter (you can build around him and win)in today's nba landscape, which I say you can't. This is how it goes when you criticize cp3 tho, people who form their opinions based on the media constantly pumping a guy up are shocked when you challenge their perception of what he is by stating that his style can't compete with the studs who have emerged at his position. So many on here dismiss ideas like this because they are not the popular opinion without even thinking about them. Thats when they pull out the advanced stats, say things are moronic with no other argument, or begin arguing a completely seperate issue,etc. Some cant even comprehend the concept of when your best guy wont assert himself scoring when needed, it hurts and holds back your team. Anyone who played basketball at remotely high levels or coaches knows this to be true, as teams led by guys like this often lose to teams with more assertive, aggressive star players. When you play with a guy who you need to deliver buckets, who has the abilitybto do it, and he doesnt do it enough, you want him to do it more, for the teams success! Let him get his 20/11 /4 with terrible leadership, constantly showing up his teammates, and his high advanced stats because he doesn't shoot enough. It hasn't translated into much of anything.

I think an honest conversation with CP3 should start with what he is lacking that he cannot be in the same echelon as Dirk, KG, Kobe, etc. I think once we establish this weakness of his that cannot propel him in the same tier as the aforementioned players, we can better assess his career.

[MartinToVaught]

Paul can put up 30/8/12 and they still lose.

This happened in game 6 against the Rockets. 31/7/11 on 10-19 shooting...still lost. He has a bunch of wasted performances like that.

Well, yeah. He played a big role in wasting his own performance by shooting 1-6 (zero assists) in the fourth quarter before garbage time.

[Zombiesonics]

the problems with the clippers are so obvious, blake doesn't fit, jj is too limited of a guard option, and they don't have enough shooting surrounding the cp3 dj pnr. They should have been looking to recreate what cp was doing in NO with tyson but with a better version in dj. Doc's approach for the roster and his coaching which includes playing his son major minutes and running jj off screens like he is ray allen ( he's not) are all jarring, he needs to go. I bet balmer pulls the plug if they flame out in the playoffs