08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited

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Re: Celts throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#61 » by DarkAzcura » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:10 pm

JulesWinnfield wrote:
andrewww wrote:This forum is hilarious.

If anything, Ray Ray deserves more heat (no pun intended) than either Lebron or KD. You can justify Lebron and KD leaving for situations to enhance their legacy better with multiple rings after they had given the organizations that drafted them the better part of a decade to win a title.

Ray Ray left Boston because he felt slighted by management and joined the Heat for less money than what Boston offered. He did it to piss off Celtics management with the 'its a business' tactic just like Boston shopped Ray Ray for the betterment of the team.

People these days dont know how to differentiate principle. No two situations are ever the same. Get over it? Barcelona to this day will never forgive Figo for his betrayal in joining Real Madrid. Easy for people to say 'just drop it'.


So in other words Ray Allen was worse because he showed pride and didn't want to come crawling back to a management he felt had handled him improperly on multiple levels. In fact he felt he'd rather make them pay for those perceived slights

Understand that in admitting to not being able to identify with or understand his reasoning (and in fact bashing him for it), you basically snitch on yourself for not having an ounce of self respect. You can't identify with pride. This is basically what you tell us here. You are an employers dream

Aside from the fact that Allen was on his last legs, there is the other layer of perceived disrespect that Durant could never in a million years identify with when making his decision


You are trying soooooooooo hard to prove it is different, but it really isn't.

Level of player and all that stuff is meaningless. Players are human. Players aren't thinking 'well he is a bench player and not a superstar so it doesn't matter.' Humans are more complex than that. Ray betrayed his teammates for their biggest rival (Lebron vs Celtics was 10x the rivalry that GSW and OKC ever were at the time). It's the same exact thing and if anything what Ray did was a bit more severe considering the level of rivalry. It doesn't matter if you perceived the players as old or on their last legs. The Celtics were 10 minutes away from the Finals after blowing a 3-2 series lead, and Ray left a month later to the team that beat them. You can jump through all the hoops in the world to try to differentiate it, but it's really not all that different.

And your whole thing about pride and what not is not really a great point. The Celtics literally traded Pierce for the #3 pick in 2005, but Pierce essentially killed the deal by not committing to the Blazers long term. Rondo was constantly in trade talks. Good management is always looking for a way to improve the team, and I think players have every right to do what they want, but they aren't free from criticism on how they treat their teammates. These are two different identities (players and management). Ray leaving is fine, but him not even taking Pierce's calls before leaving is soft as hell. It's the way he did it that stings the Celtic players.

I don't have any issues with Ray trying to sting Celtics' management, but by going to the Heat (and not a team like the Spurs) and not taking Pierce's calls, it was a pretty giant FU to the players and coaching staff also, which is what I had an issue with.
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Re: Celts throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#62 » by hege53190 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:18 pm

Optms wrote:I'm with the Celtics on this one.

Ray Allen is possibly be the biggest ring chaser with no sense of dignity of the last 15 years. Well. Lebron takes the cake for that one when he left Cleveland the first time but this one is pretty far up there simply because Ray already had his ring. And simply wanted to spite the organization because he couldn't handle being demoted when it made perfect basketball sense. His ego just couldn't allow him to concede.

Zach Randolph recently took a bench role with dignity and he's awesome for it. Now that's a true professional.


ummmm.....

Karl Malone, Gary Payton, David West (San Antonio and GS), Zaza Pachulia, Andrew Bogut....... If you think what Ray Allen did is something different than what 2-3 players do every year than you are an idiot.
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Re: Celts throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#63 » by Flopper » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:24 pm

teerfour+40LG wrote:I remember Ray Allen.

Spoiler:
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Someone should organize a 10 year celebration for this tweet.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#64 » by myronbolitar » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:39 pm

There was a ton of bad blood between those Celtics and Heat teams - that ECF was INTENSE. And while the Celtics may have been "on their last legs", they also pushed the (eventual champion) Heat to a brutal seven game series. Series ends, buzzer sounds, and Ray immediately beelines for LeBron and Wade...it was like he was trying out for the team. Though you wouldn't know it by his performance - he had a truly awful series.

He turned down more money, a no-trade clause, didn't answer calls from PP+others and signed with Boston's most hated rivals.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that that's continuing to rub some of those players the wrong way. Hopefully someday it gets ironed out - life's too short - but in the meantime, whatever. The players know more than we do.

Ray got another ring in Miami, but he solidified himself as a mercenary. Not the best exits from Milwaukee, Seattle, or Boston. Spectacular player, but no single franchise that he can point to and call home.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#65 » by myronbolitar » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:43 pm

Or, if I put it more shortly, I'd sum it up like this: people underestimate how much the early 2010s Celtics HATED the Heat. There's nothing like that in today's NBA.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#66 » by bs_and_cs » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:54 pm

Can't help but laugh at the idea that people on a forum act like they know what went on behind the scenes.

Clearly some **** went down between KG, Pierce, Rondo and Allen that we don't know about.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#67 » by DarkAzcura » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:58 pm

myronbolitar wrote:Or, if I put it more shortly, I'd sum it up like this: people underestimate how much the early 2010s Celtics HATED the Heat. There's nothing like that in today's NBA.


It was more of a Celtic and Lebron rivalry than a Heat one. It was both ways too. I know what you mean, though.
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Re: Celts throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#68 » by gst8 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:08 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:
gst8 wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
I actually named 4 if you read up this page in a prior post, I could go on longer but this is a dumb conversation that isn't worth another key stroke. If you find ray allens departure from Boston in 2012 as similar to KD in OKC in 2016, then fine. I can't convince you and it's pointless trying further. Because someone who holds that opinion in my mind is being *willfully* unreasonable


You really only named two, team trajectory and quality of player. The business about alienating Ray just substantiates the quality of player claim. Besides, it’s very easy to argue that OKC alienated KD in their own way by consistently trading players due to fiscal constraints and failing to implement a system that meshed him and Westbrook to his satisfaction. In terms of team trajectory, it’s fairly clear that KD, Pierce, and Rondo all felt they had one more run in them, otherwise their reaction to Ray’s defection wouldn’t have been nearly as strong. You can debate how realistic that belief was but in terms of level of betrayal, it’s not a whole lot different.


No I made 4. Hell one is good enough, if it takes convincing to you to illustrate that 2016 KD and 2012 Ray Allen were different animals based on the stage in their career alone, then no number of differences would satisfy you. Ending it right there is more than enough to signify a massive distinction that renders the comparison absurd

And in other words you dont find Boston benching Ray Allen and then lowballing him in that offseason (by his estimation) as a relevant difference at all between he and KDs decisions? Which just further illustrates my point that you are being willfully disingenuous in this entire conversation. Especially when you compare his active alienation to some things that went on with OKC management in Durants run. Boy you can stretch yourself to find similarities

It's debatable how much Boston even wanted Ray Allen back given they were phasing him out and made him the offer they did in FA

This is a ridiculous comparison and gets more so with every post


The quality of the player, trajectory of the team, or the fact that Ray was dissatisfied with how Boston was treating him is largely irrelevant to the conversation and frankly, a little off base since they made the larger offer (sound familiar). The criticism against KD repeated time and again on this forum is not that he left OKC but rather because of the team he joined, specifically that he joined the team that just beat him in the conference finals. Not only did Ray do exactly that, but the team he went to was 10x the rival in comparison to OKC vs. GS. If you can’t acknowledge the similarities there, you’re the one that’s being willfully disingenuous.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#69 » by TMU » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:14 am

Ray Allen seems like a type who's difficult to get along with. Not sure what the entire story is, but Rondo isn't a saint by any means.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#70 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:19 am

I dont know why Rondo gotta be bitter about it now. Your not going win the war against HOF like Ray. You won ring because of his part as well. Your welcome. Jeez.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#71 » by andrewww » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:47 am

Ballerhogger wrote:I dont know why Rondo gotta be bitter about it now. Your not going win the war against HOF like Ray. You won ring because of his part as well. Your welcome. Jeez.


Its not just Rondo, the veteran Celtics core felt the same way as Rondo.

And as one poster on the Celtics board pointed out correctly, theres a very important distinction to understand the purpose of why each of Lebron/KD/Ray Ray left.

The former two left to enhance their legacies with rings.

Ray Ray left Boston because he wanted to give mgmt a big FU meaning it was personal. Big difference there. But as usual realgm doesnt understand the definition of 'principle'. Carry on.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#72 » by hege53190 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:55 am

http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8552139/ray-allen-left-boston-celtics-no-trade-clause-table


As for the constant uncertainty regarding trades, Allen said, talks began within months of his arrival in Boston. According to Allen, during that 2007-08 season, which resulted in a championship for the Celtics, Boston discussed a swap of Allen for Tracy McGrady.


"I got word of it through back channels," Allen said.

Two years later, he said, he got word that both he and Eddie House were on the block. House was the one to go, to the New York Knicks for Nate Robinson. There was the aforementioned dalliance with Phoenix in 2009, and then last season, Allen was nearly traded to Memphis for O.J. Mayo.

The team was in San Francisco on their West Coast swing when Allen got a call from Ainge at around 12:15 p.m., the afternoon of the trade deadline.

"Danny told me he had a deal on the table for me to go to Memphis for O.J. Mayo and he asked me what I thought," Allen said. "I told him I didn't like it. I told him I didn't want to leave Boston. He said, 'I hope you understand my position.' I said, 'I know you have to build this team for the future, but I'm not happy about it.'"
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#73 » by theforumblue » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:14 am

ray never really struck me as a type that would get crazy chummy with people. kind of like how people talked all that crap about kevin love because he "wasn't fitting in". some people's lives aren't all about their teammates.

since he not only moved on but had the galls to contribute, including one of the biggest shots in Finals history, and win another ring, yea i guess he won't be invited to their bbq any time soon. i'm sure he's crushed.

i feel dirty even semi-defending ray. but it's against the leprechauns so i guess it's ok.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#74 » by Ballerhogger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:09 am

andrewww wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:I dont know why Rondo gotta be bitter about it now. Your not going win the war against HOF like Ray. You won ring because of his part as well. Your welcome. Jeez.


Its not just Rondo, the veteran Celtics core felt the same way as Rondo.

And as one poster on the Celtics board pointed out correctly, theres a very important distinction to understand the purpose of why each of Lebron/KD/Ray Ray left.

The former two left to enhance their legacies with rings.

Ray Ray left Boston because he wanted to give mgmt a big FU meaning it was personal. Big difference there. But as usual realgm doesnt understand the definition of 'principle'. Carry on.


Yes because Rondo is high charcter guy. .. Who cares what he says. The team as whole agrees with Rondo thinking.Thats horrible. No wonder why Rondo cant stay on a team. I would make it personal if the team sided with Rondo thinking as well. You win as team and lose as team. What about that prinicple? So he went to a team that apperitcated him. What amazing concept. I thought KG at least would appericate Rays effort.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#75 » by Tim Lehrbach » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:18 am

Players and fans still hurt five years later over an adult putting his own interests before those of some dumb, faux-militaristic brotherhood that neither valued him anymore nor offered him any reason for his continued contribution? Disappointing. Not surprising, but disappointing.

Ray Allen might very well be a huge jerk. I don't know him. Wouldn't be the first time it's been suggested. But Rondo referred specifically to his defection and how that wasn't ok because of the "war" with Miami and the Celtics' "mindset" as the issues, and that's just stupid. Allen's following season in Miami should have been all the evidence they needed that he'd made the right decision.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#76 » by myronbolitar » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:06 pm

Tim Lehrbach wrote:Players and fans still hurt five years later over an adult putting his own interests before those of some dumb, faux-militaristic brotherhood that neither valued him anymore nor offered him any reason for his continued contribution? Disappointing. Not surprising, but disappointing.

Ray Allen might very well be a huge jerk. I don't know him. Wouldn't be the first time it's been suggested. But Rondo referred specifically to his defection and how that wasn't ok because of the "war" with Miami and the Celtics' "mindset" as the issues, and that's just stupid. Allen's following season in Miami should have been all the evidence they needed that he'd made the right decision.



Offered him no reason for his continued contribution? You mean besides a bigger salary and no trade clause, right?

You're posting on a basketball forum criticizing the players for taking the game and rivalries seriously. Is your ideal NBA one in which all the players are friends? "Faux militaristic" - have you ever watched sports? The terms Rondo threw around are VERY commonplace.

From Ray's perspective, sure, that following season could be all the evidence he needed that he made the right decision, if he wanted another ring that badly. Good for him. But it burned things for him in Boston.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#77 » by _jin » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:43 pm

Why is everybody getting their panties in a bunch over this? They are athletes and celebrities but also human beings who like to have fun and hang out with their friends. If Allen's not one of the friends and they don't feel comfortable around him and that would make things awkward, why should they invite him? Just for PR reasons so that fans on a forum don't think Rondo or any of them is a bad guy?
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#78 » by nurseryc » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:02 pm

JulesWinnfield wrote:
Just like Rajon Rondo used to set up the fast break for the Boston Celtics, he is setting up a vacation with his former Celtics teammates from the 2008 NBA championship team to celebrate the nearing of the 10-year anniversary of their title. This party, however, doesn’t include an invite to ex-Celtics star guard Ray Allen.

“I asked a couple of the guys. I got a no, a no head shake,” said Rondo to The Undefeated when asked why Allen wasn’t invited.


“It will be a long story about that, but it is what it is,” Rondo, who plays for the Chicago Bulls, told The Undefeated. “I don’t know a good analogy to put this in. It just wasn’t the greatest separation. It wasn’t the greatest thing that could’ve happened to us as a team, a bond. We were at war with those guys [Miami]. To go with the enemy, that’s unheard-of in sports. Well, it’s not so unheard of. It’s damn near common now.

“The mindset we had. The guys on our team. You wouldn’t do anything like that. It makes you question that series in the Finals … Who were you for? You didn’t bleed green. People think we had a messed-up relationship. It’s not the greatest. But it’s not just me. I called and reached out to a couple of other vets and asked them what they wanted to do with the situation. They told me to stick with what we got [without Allen].”

One former Celtics player from the 2008 NBA championship team said of Allen’s exclusion from the party: “I mean, Ray left. He left to the enemy.”


https://theundefeated.com/features/rajon-rondo-boston-celtics-ray-allen/


This is crazy. This isn't Lebron to Miami, this isn't even 90% of that.
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Re: Celts throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#79 » by GrandTheftRondo » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:39 pm

hege53190 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:The thing I don't like about Ray Allen is how he made it seem like he left the Celtics because he didn't like coming off the bench to Avery Bradley, when he really just wanted to ring chase. If he just left flat out, I wouldn't have any dislike for him because the Celtics were old as ****, but the guy pretended there was an issue about being a bench player and then he joins the Heat to become a bench player.


THE CELTICS WERE ACTIVELY SHOPPING RAY AT THE DEADLINE.

I mean he lost his starting spot and there were rumors everywhere that he was going to be traded.

If you were an employee and the company wanted to change your position, cut your hours and possibly move you across the country; would you say, "hey this is the company I came up with" or would you say, "you know what I better start looking at all my options". And if you looked at all your options would you say "hey I better not look at that company because they are a direct competitor"

No. You wouldn't. You would go to the situation that was best for you.

If Boston's management came out and said, "hey we are going to ride this team until the wheels fall off. You will always be a Boston Celtic." He would have probably stuck around. However loyalty is a 2 way street and franchises usually use the loyalty card just as long as it suits their interest.

Ray was also injured and playing fairly poorly.

Yes he was always one the Celtics seemed willing to shop around, but that's what happens in pro sports.

What people seem to ignore with Ray Allen is that he is quite a weird dude. Very OCD about the way he trained, warmed up and all of that and wasn't exactly known for hanging out with his teammates, even in 2008 when Doc preached Ubuntu.

Still KG, Rondo, Pierce and Doc always seemed to preach togetherness and Ray always seemed to be an outsider. In 2012 you can tell he was thinking differently to the rest, he didn't enjoy being a role player on an ageing team and his ego was clearly hurt by Bradley winning the starting role over him.

Ray handled the whole thing poorly. Sure he had his beef with Rondo, but KG and Pierce reportedly could not get in contact with Ray when he was making his decision, and then obviously he stuck it to Boston by signing to the Heat. Not only doing that, but also taking a lesser offer at Miami to stick it to Ainge because he felt as though he wasn't getting offered enough.

He then takes a similar role on less coin at Miami, the team the Celtics and their fans had despised since 2010. People may be forgetting but that was one of the better rivalries in sports for a while there. Very tough games and the 2012 series in particular ended brutally for the Celtics blowing a decent lead in game 7. Durant obviously had something similar happen but he hadn't been fighting to stay relevant against this new age team like the Celtics had. It was clear Boston was on their last legs but they still tried to take Miami down. Ray quitting on that and then seemingly blaming the franchise for how it ended wasn't the best thing to do. That certainly wouldn't have made a fierce competitor like KG happy.

Both sides could have handled things better but Ray certainly was never an innocent party. The majority of fans always loved him, KG and Pierce seemed to like him, his only beef really was with Rondo and I honestly never saw that become an issue on the court.

For Ray to then basically act like he was forced out was ridiculous. Sure he had lost his starting role and wasn't the same guy as in 2008 but he still was valued in Boston. It was simply nothing more than Ray choosing between a veteran team that was a small shot at any major success versus joining the world's best team with the roles being fairly similar.
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Re: 08 Celts players throwing a celebration for 08 title... Ray Allen not invited 

Post#80 » by celtics543 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:54 pm

hege53190 wrote:http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8552139/ray-allen-left-boston-celtics-no-trade-clause-table


As for the constant uncertainty regarding trades, Allen said, talks began within months of his arrival in Boston. According to Allen, during that 2007-08 season, which resulted in a championship for the Celtics, Boston discussed a swap of Allen for Tracy McGrady.


"I got word of it through back channels," Allen said.

Two years later, he said, he got word that both he and Eddie House were on the block. House was the one to go, to the New York Knicks for Nate Robinson. There was the aforementioned dalliance with Phoenix in 2009, and then last season, Allen was nearly traded to Memphis for O.J. Mayo.

The team was in San Francisco on their West Coast swing when Allen got a call from Ainge at around 12:15 p.m., the afternoon of the trade deadline.

"Danny told me he had a deal on the table for me to go to Memphis for O.J. Mayo and he asked me what I thought," Allen said. "I told him I didn't like it. I told him I didn't want to leave Boston. He said, 'I hope you understand my position.' I said, 'I know you have to build this team for the future, but I'm not happy about it.'"


And the reason he didn't get sent to Memphis is because Pierce and KG went to Danny and asked him not to trade Ray. So Ray can be mad at management all he wants but his teammates went to bat for him during the trade deadline and he decided to screw them over when free agency happened. He helped them win a title, and he was huge in some of those games, but he was terrible in the 2010 Finals and especially the 2012 ECF when they needed him. It wasn't about going to the bench because he went to the bench in Miami, it was completely about saying screw you to Boston, the fans, and his teammates.

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