How come Westbrook gets bashed so much

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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#101 » by Heat3 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:41 pm

the advanced metrics geeks hate him. not me. big fan. always thought he was better than rose even when rose won the mvp. now no one is holding him back. how I wish the heat would have taken him instead of beasley.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#102 » by socal74 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:42 pm

nbafan38 wrote:
leolozon wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
Westbrook won't be able to become Kobe unless he somehow lands Blake Griffin as his Paul Gasol.


... He had Durant who's better than Griffin or Gasol. Are we acting like Westbrook never played with a top 3 player?


Durant would be more the Shaq figure if you compare the careers and prime Shaq was much more dominant than Durant but either way I think Kobe was better than Westbrook but their are definitely similarities in playing style and drive.


There is nothing to think about because KObe is. Westbrook will never be as good as Kobe on the offensive end. Yes both take bad shots but you are comparing westbrook to one of the greatest offensive players of all time. Lets nto even talk about defense because Kobe has that over westbrook in spades.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#103 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:27 pm

Any top 10 player in the league, if given a complete green light to shot and do anything he wants with the ball ever minute he is on the floor....AND DOES THAT....will get amazing stats. Period. ESPECIALLY if they are reckless in doing so and don't care how often they crash and burn and turn the ball over. See James Harden.

Also....I think a by-product of his style is that the rest of the team don't have a clue what he's about to do. Imagine playing pickup ball and the one guy dominating the ball looks out of control most of the game. At the end of the game he walks off....great stats...and the rest of you are like "wtf was that!?"

You've all been there I know it.....

That's who Westbrook is....Amazing athlete...plays with incredible energy....Respect. But totally out of control....ball dominate...and has a huge chip on his shoulder and the rest of the team is sort of hanging around waiting for the next surprise.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#104 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:28 pm

AZNKidd wrote:I think he gets bashed for the same reason Kobe does in that they have so much desire to win that it makes them not approachable. However, RWB will get more flack from a basketball perspective because Kobe was such a cerebral player where he won't use brunt force to get his way.


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That's a great analogy.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#105 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:30 pm

Crooked-I wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
Crooked-I wrote:
Yeah he's pretty much getting the Kobe treatment in 2006. Selfish, chucker, not a winner, doesn't make teammates better, etc. Kobe shut everyone up by winning tho. Maybe Westbrook will do the same(definitely not on that sorry ass Thunder team).


Westbrook won't be able to become Kobe unless he somehow lands Blake Griffin as his Paul Gasol.


Lakers sign Blake Griffin this offseason then trade for Westbrook :wink:


LOVE to see that...

but mostly because it would end up being two dead broken bodies hanging all over the other team's rim lol God can you imagine those two trying to keep track of each other on the floor lol
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#106 » by mtron929 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:32 pm

To me, it is simple. I just do not particularly like volume shooters who do not shoot efficiently, and who do not play defense. If you shoot 100 times a game and make 50-60% of the shots, then for all means, do it. It is the sub 40% with high volume that does not sit well with me.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#107 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:39 pm

Quotatious wrote:His style of play is tough to swallow for some people in the era of analytics, but I seriously don't know why old school guys who hate analytics like Barkley would call him out...Probably just jealousy. For one, I'm glad Oscar Robertson did that ceremony with Russ a week ago.


For someone who has a pretty hard edge to him (especially when talking about today's game), I was pleasantly surprised to see oscar embrace westbrook the way he has. It was pretty cool for anyone who appreciates the history of the game to see that connection.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#108 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:41 pm

mtron929 wrote:To me, it is simple. I just do not particularly like volume shooters who do not shoot efficiently, and who do not play defense. If you shoot 100 times a game and make 50-60% of the shots, then for all means, do it. It is the sub 40% with high volume that does not sit well with me.


He was bad yesterday, but he scored at league average efficiency this season, not well below as some seem to think.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#109 » by Smash3 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Heat3 wrote:the advanced metrics geeks hate him. not me. big fan. always thought he was better than rose even when rose won the mvp. now no one is holding him back. how I wish the heat would have taken him instead of beasley.


:crazy: :noway: :nonono:
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#110 » by KD_Steph » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 pm

He is a great player but he does not trust his teammates which hurts their confidence badly and freezes them out. They are not as bad as people make them out to be but playing with Russ does not allow them to grow as players. Plus no matter how bad your teammates are, there is literally no excuse for doing what he did in that 4th quarter. This is a team sport not a one man show. Never seen something like that 4th quarter in a team sport in my life. He will not grow as player unless he changes his approach to the game and trust his teammates more to let them grow and give them a chance to help.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#111 » by mtron929 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:44 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
mtron929 wrote:To me, it is simple. I just do not particularly like volume shooters who do not shoot efficiently, and who do not play defense. If you shoot 100 times a game and make 50-60% of the shots, then for all means, do it. It is the sub 40% with high volume that does not sit well with me.


He was bad yesterday, but he scored at league average efficiency this season, not well below as some seem to think.


Right. But he did it at the highest volume possible. Moreover, I just expect more from a guy like Russ with this much talent but he has been inefficient his entire career.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#112 » by alebaba » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:16 pm

KD_Steph wrote:He is a great player but he does not trust his teammates which hurts their confidence badly and freezes them out. They are not as bad as people make them out to be but playing with Russ does not allow them to grow as players. Plus no matter how bad your teammates are, there is literally no excuse for doing what he did in that 4th quarter. This is a team sport not a one man show. Never seen something like that 4th quarter in a team sport in my life. He will not grow as player unless he changes his approach to the game and trust his teammates more to let them grow and give them a chance to help.



He sat out for a min, the 12 points lead got cut down to 3 points, all this without James Harden. That's how bad his teammates are, no one in that team can create their own shot except for Westbrook.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#113 » by couchie » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:21 pm

It's the coach's fault. Run a damn play.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#114 » by ono » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:28 pm

He's coming down on the other side of the hype hill. On his way up the hype hill, not only were people on his side over the KD saga, but people began obsessing about his triple doubles and the record and the fact that he's exciting and explosive and gritty and snarly, all the while, turning a blind to his flaws and neglecting to analyse the substance behind the statlines.

Now he's on the way down the other side of the hype hill and people are taking a second glance at his statlines and realising things like....

His direct opponents shoot around 10% above their average when Russ is guarding them.

He leads the league in uncontested rebounds and his contested rebound numbers have stayed the same for the last 3-4 years. He is claiming the rebound through the box out work of his team mates so the actual rebound isn't adding any value to the team.

He is statistically the worst player in the league when it comes to contesting shots at the perimeter. He is contesting roughly half the amount of shots as he was last season. Even Cameron Payne was contesting more in half as many minutes. To put it into context, only Hassan Whiteside and Deandre Jordan contest less perimeter shots.

He is visibly leaving his defensive assignment to sag into the paint in search of an uncontested rebound. The vast majority of his uncontested rebounds come from misses from 19+ feet out...in other words, the perimeter...which is where the guard should be...you know....guarding.

He is shooting a ridiculous amount of shots per game and at a poor success rate. Self explanatory. He is averaging far more attempts per game than his MVP rivals.

His usage rate is easily the highest in NBA history. If James Harden had the same usage rate, he would average around 37ppg and 14 assists per game. His rebounding would stay the same but that is purely because the calculation used to determine these figures cannot factor in OKC's strategy which allows Russ to claim 8 uncontested boards per game.

He is very clearly making decisions with the ball based on his box score and not the game score. He passes on open looks to hunt for an assist at points in the game where he doesn't have his 10 assists, yet plays hero ball once he has achieved his assisting totals.

None of this is an attack on Westbrook. He's a great player. He's exciting, he's a generational talent, he has a ridiculous and unique skillset. He hustles like hell and he plays hard. But he is now being closely analysed and under closer analysis there appears to be less substance behind the stats. His numbers don't quite add the kind of value they should be doing. Dare I say, the triple doubles appear to be happening in a manufactured way and not in an organic way. A triple double should be the by product of an exceptional all round game.....not the aim at the beginning of the game.

I'll close by saying this....the main pro-Westbrook argument circulating the netosphere relates to OKC's good overall record when he does achieve a Triple Double. This argument in itself perfectly encapsulates the lack of analysis that has already gone into Westbrook's MVP campaign. Of course they have a greater chance of winning if his opponents miss more shots (thereby gifting Westbrook more opportunities for uncontested rebounds) and if his teammates make more shots (thereby increasing his assist numbers). The much bigger determining factor in the win lies with his teammates and his opponents ability to hit their shots. Because of his ridiculous usage and OKC's rebounding strategy, the triple double becomes a by product of the win when people are mistaking it for being the cause of the win. Furthermore, the correct sample size to use when determining Westbrook's value is surely the 82 game season. Not the 34 or so where he has recorded a Triple Double and OKC have won. That's like saying 'everytime Steph hits 10 three pointers, Golden State win'. It's ridiculous. He's had a great year and people aren't attacking him. They're simply analysing the numbers and realising that the supposed Most Valuable Player also does a lot of things that either don't add value or have negative value.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#115 » by gmoney411 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:31 pm

alebaba wrote:
KD_Steph wrote:He is a great player but he does not trust his teammates which hurts their confidence badly and freezes them out. They are not as bad as people make them out to be but playing with Russ does not allow them to grow as players. Plus no matter how bad your teammates are, there is literally no excuse for doing what he did in that 4th quarter. This is a team sport not a one man show. Never seen something like that 4th quarter in a team sport in my life. He will not grow as player unless he changes his approach to the game and trust his teammates more to let them grow and give them a chance to help.



He sat out for a min, the 12 points lead got cut down to 3 points, all this without James Harden. That's how bad his teammates are, no one in that team can create their own shot except for Westbrook.


Are you sure you didn't mean all of this because of James Harden? James scored 8 over that stretch.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#116 » by Yoshun » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:36 pm

mtron929 wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
mtron929 wrote:To me, it is simple. I just do not particularly like volume shooters who do not shoot efficiently, and who do not play defense. If you shoot 100 times a game and make 50-60% of the shots, then for all means, do it. It is the sub 40% with high volume that does not sit well with me.


He was bad yesterday, but he scored at league average efficiency this season, not well below as some seem to think.


Right. But he did it at the highest volume possible. Moreover, I just expect more from a guy like Russ with this much talent but he has been inefficient his entire career.


He typically isn't inefficient though, he's average. I think that's part of the issue.

That said, there is no defending his playoffs thus far. He has been straight up inefficient.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#117 » by DaRealHibachi » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:19 am

ono wrote:He's coming down on the other side of the hype hill. On his way up the hype hill, not only were people on his side over the KD saga, but people began obsessing about his triple doubles and the record and the fact that he's exciting and explosive and gritty and snarly, all the while, turning a blind to his flaws and neglecting to analyse the substance behind the statlines.

Now he's on the way down the other side of the hype hill and people are taking a second glance at his statlines and realising things like....

His direct opponents shoot around 10% above their average when Russ is guarding them.

He leads the league in uncontested rebounds and his contested rebound numbers have stayed the same for the last 3-4 years. He is claiming the rebound through the box out work of his team mates so the actual rebound isn't adding any value to the team.

He is statistically the worst player in the league when it comes to contesting shots at the perimeter. He is contesting roughly half the amount of shots as he was last season. Even Cameron Payne was contesting more in half as many minutes. To put it into context, only Hassan Whiteside and Deandre Jordan contest less perimeter shots.

He is visibly leaving his defensive assignment to sag into the paint in search of an uncontested rebound. The vast majority of his uncontested rebounds come from misses from 19+ feet out...in other words, the perimeter...which is where the guard should be...you know....guarding.

He is shooting a ridiculous amount of shots per game and at a poor success rate. Self explanatory. He is averaging far more attempts per game than his MVP rivals.

His usage rate is easily the highest in NBA history. If James Harden had the same usage rate, he would average around 37ppg and 14 assists per game. His rebounding would stay the same but that is purely because the calculation used to determine these figures cannot factor in OKC's strategy which allows Russ to claim 8 uncontested boards per game.

He is very clearly making decisions with the ball based on his box score and not the game score. He passes on open looks to hunt for an assist at points in the game where he doesn't have his 10 assists, yet plays hero ball once he has achieved his assisting totals.

None of this is an attack on Westbrook. He's a great player. He's exciting, he's a generational talent, he has a ridiculous and unique skillset. He hustles like hell and he plays hard. But he is now being closely analysed and under closer analysis there appears to be less substance behind the stats. His numbers don't quite add the kind of value they should be doing. Dare I say, the triple doubles appear to be happening in a manufactured way and not in an organic way. A triple double should be the by product of an exceptional all round game.....not the aim at the beginning of the game.

I'll close by saying this....the main pro-Westbrook argument circulating the netosphere relates to OKC's good overall record when he does achieve a Triple Double. This argument in itself perfectly encapsulates the lack of analysis that has already gone into Westbrook's MVP campaign. Of course they have a greater chance of winning if his opponents miss more shots (thereby gifting Westbrook more opportunities for uncontested rebounds) and if his teammates make more shots (thereby increasing his assist numbers). The much bigger determining factor in the win lies with his teammates and his opponents ability to hit their shots. Because of his ridiculous usage and OKC's rebounding strategy, the triple double becomes a by product of the win when people are mistaking it for being the cause of the win. Furthermore, the correct sample size to use when determining Westbrook's value is surely the 82 game season. Not the 34 or so where he has recorded a Triple Double and OKC have won. That's like saying 'everytime Steph hits 10 three pointers, Golden State win'. It's ridiculous. He's had a great year and people aren't attacking him. They're simply analysing the numbers and realising that the supposed Most Valuable Player also does a lot of things that either don't add value or have negative value.


Great post! :bowdown:
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#118 » by desi tmac91 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:23 am

DubTheVanDamage wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:He is the anti-Durant, the anti-Lebron, the true old school loyal passionate machine that everyone claims they long for a player who is willing to put a team on his back the way MJ or Kobe would and yet his roster is much worse than either of their rosters ever were. And yet he gets so much criticism on realgm. I don't get it, it's like you can't have your cake and eat it too, superstars get bashed for forming superteams but then if the team around the star is trash they are expected to defer to teammates much weaker than them?


In answer to your question, Westbrook is being bashed so much in part because Rockets fans want to make the series about the MVP. They think their guy should be MVP and this series shows why.

For others, the game last night was a perfect microcosm for Westbrook's season -- 75% excellent and 25% bad. He is, often, a wrecking machine who is nearly unstoppable. But when things aren't going well, he can be stubborn, have tunnel vision and freeze out his teammates. He deserves a lot of praise mixed with some criticism, but there is no middle ground on RealGM.

The GB has a very short memory and narratives whipsaw based on the last game. I've seen Westbrook called the best player in the NBA on RealGM and the owner of the second best individual season in NBA history... then suddenly, RW is a team killing ball hog. Neither point of view is realistic. RW is a top player in the league and, if he wins the MVP, it'll be because he had a terrific season.

RW isn't MJ or Kobe, he's AI. And AI is still an incredibly polarizing figure. Until RW wins something, he will be, too; given his supporting cast, that's not likely to be anytime soon.


As a Rockets fan who thinks Russ is MVP, it's a real shame to see our fanbase push it's agenda through this series. Westbrook was demolishing us for 3 quarters, he couldn't keep it up in the 4th. That's all to me.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#119 » by MoMan24 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:34 am

You taking about LeBron cause Russ gets bashed a lil bit nowadays. If he wins it helps his MVP campaign. If he loses its because his team is so bad that it helps his MVP campaign.The love fest has gotten so bad that the media has gone as far as bashing Harden for having a roster, coach, and GM that are all on the same page. Dude is a hero of a state that the villain KD betrayed. Now its not Curry love last year but bashing is not happening in the media. After his epic fail last game most ppl on talk shows said he got them the lead and had no help and is the MVP.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#120 » by Prince187 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:29 am

ono wrote:He's coming down on the other side of the hype hill. On his way up the hype hill, not only were people on his side over the KD saga, but people began obsessing about his triple doubles and the record and the fact that he's exciting and explosive and gritty and snarly, all the while, turning a blind to his flaws and neglecting to analyse the substance behind the statlines.

Now he's on the way down the other side of the hype hill and people are taking a second glance at his statlines and realising things like....

His direct opponents shoot around 10% above their average when Russ is guarding them.

He leads the league in uncontested rebounds and his contested rebound numbers have stayed the same for the last 3-4 years. He is claiming the rebound through the box out work of his team mates so the actual rebound isn't adding any value to the team.

He is statistically the worst player in the league when it comes to contesting shots at the perimeter. He is contesting roughly half the amount of shots as he was last season. Even Cameron Payne was contesting more in half as many minutes. To put it into context, only Hassan Whiteside and Deandre Jordan contest less perimeter shots.

He is visibly leaving his defensive assignment to sag into the paint in search of an uncontested rebound. The vast majority of his uncontested rebounds come from misses from 19+ feet out...in other words, the perimeter...which is where the guard should be...you know....guarding.

He is shooting a ridiculous amount of shots per game and at a poor success rate. Self explanatory. He is averaging far more attempts per game than his MVP rivals.

His usage rate is easily the highest in NBA history. If James Harden had the same usage rate, he would average around 37ppg and 14 assists per game. His rebounding would stay the same but that is purely because the calculation used to determine these figures cannot factor in OKC's strategy which allows Russ to claim 8 uncontested boards per game.

He is very clearly making decisions with the ball based on his box score and not the game score. He passes on open looks to hunt for an assist at points in the game where he doesn't have his 10 assists, yet plays hero ball once he has achieved his assisting totals.

None of this is an attack on Westbrook. He's a great player. He's exciting, he's a generational talent, he has a ridiculous and unique skillset. He hustles like hell and he plays hard. But he is now being closely analysed and under closer analysis there appears to be less substance behind the stats. His numbers don't quite add the kind of value they should be doing. Dare I say, the triple doubles appear to be happening in a manufactured way and not in an organic way. A triple double should be the by product of an exceptional all round game.....not the aim at the beginning of the game.

I'll close by saying this....the main pro-Westbrook argument circulating the netosphere relates to OKC's good overall record when he does achieve a Triple Double. This argument in itself perfectly encapsulates the lack of analysis that has already gone into Westbrook's MVP campaign. Of course they have a greater chance of winning if his opponents miss more shots (thereby gifting Westbrook more opportunities for uncontested rebounds) and if his teammates make more shots (thereby increasing his assist numbers). The much bigger determining factor in the win lies with his teammates and his opponents ability to hit their shots. Because of his ridiculous usage and OKC's rebounding strategy, the triple double becomes a by product of the win when people are mistaking it for being the cause of the win. Furthermore, the correct sample size to use when determining Westbrook's value is surely the 82 game season. Not the 34 or so where he has recorded a Triple Double and OKC have won. That's like saying 'everytime Steph hits 10 three pointers, Golden State win'. It's ridiculous. He's had a great year and people aren't attacking him. They're simply analysing the numbers and realising that the supposed Most Valuable Player also does a lot of things that either don't add value or have negative value.

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