How come Westbrook gets bashed so much

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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#41 » by dontforget » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:36 pm

GrandTheftRondo wrote:
dontforget wrote:
GrandTheftRondo wrote:Because he's been like this for years and the Thunder probably didn't win a title because of it. Yes they had health issues in some of those seasons, but last season they didn't and they absolutely blew their biggest chance. Durant sucked as well, but at least Durant isn't constantly determined to take as many horrible shots as he can just because he knows he's talented and a number of them will go in.

Westbrook is a lot like Kobe and honestly that type of playstyle is hard to watch.

Honestly though, all this defence for Westbrook is even worse. The teammates are bad argument has some merit, but we need to quit acting like he's on the Brooklyn Nets. The team is mostly the same as last year's and they were a game off beating the Warriors.

Does the team go to **** when Westbrook sits? Yes. But I think a lot of people are ignoring a great point a few people have brought up lately. How fun and good is it for the other players when your star guy is dominating the ball and giving it up only when he doesn't score? Not very. It's a lot like Iverson with the 76ers. His play got some wins and even a finals appearance, but it's hardly going to take you plays. Westbrook dominating the ball is never going to allow his teammates to have any sort of rhythm or confidence. So of course when you sub Westbrook they totally go to ****. I find it hard to believe that the likes of Oladipo wouldn't be a better player if Westbrook was a more willing passer of the ball. LeBron had some terrible teams in his first stint in Cleveland, yet always passed the ball and his teammates certainly didn't go to **** like Westbrook's do when called upon to make plays.


That's short sighted. The Thunder didn't win a title with KD & Westbrook because management was cheap and let Harden go because they didn't want to pay him. The core of KD, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka went to the finals when they were so young. KD (4th year) Westbrook (3rd year), Harden and Ibaka (2nd year). After that it seemed they had a injury every year.

Watching Westbrook play with the raw intensity is a beauty of thing to watch. People can crap on his shot selection all they want, but I'd take a guy with the fire and intensity of Westbrook any day. Especially in a league where the regular season is so boring.

The only thing that was hard to see was that crap of team around him. Westbrook leaves with 2 mins in the 3rd up 12, and by the time the 4th begins it was down to a 3 point lead. The game was lost there.

And you think OKC blowing a 12 point lead has nothing to do with the way Westbrook plays?

Sure you sit a star player and you'll probably blow a few points. Understandable. What people seem to ignore though is how Westbrook's play likely has an impact on his teammates. You ever played with a ball hog? Standing there calling for the ball while they go 1 on 5, only dumping it to you when they can't score makes it incredibly hard to get going. The NBA is a league where the players are all about rhythm, muscle memory and consistency. Westbrook hogging the ball throws that all out the window for his teammates. Then when he sits down these guys are getting used to the ball again, they're not in rhythm when it comes to their shots and they won't find a rhythm because the defence clamps down on them fully aware that Westbrook is on the bench. It's not rocket science. It's hard to quantify it, but I'd be staggered if that isn't part of the reason OKC looks so poor when Westbrook isn't making plays. Guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Grant, McDermott etc are not high school role players completely incapable of making some nice plays.


A ball-hog with 14 assists. Its not like the other guys didn't have opportunities. Oladipo had 14 shots, Roberson had 12 shots, they had plenty of opportunities to find a rhythm.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#42 » by shawn_hemp » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:37 pm

flow wrote:Only a person who didn't see the 4th quarter of last night's game can ask this question with a straight face.

And I have no anti-Westbrook agenda. But it was a disgraceful display.




.


Well I mean, did you happen to watch the 3rd quarter? OKC was actually winning at that point

Westbrook played hero ball in the 4th because he actually did get his teammates involved in the 3rd, and it backfired horribly. Sabonis and Oladipo shouldn't even have been on the floor

If anything, he tried to hero ball after it was too late and the Rockets were already on a run

Clint Capela also played some really good D and the refs didn't do OKC any favors
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#43 » by GrandTheftRondo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:40 pm

dontforget wrote:
GrandTheftRondo wrote:
dontforget wrote:
That's short sighted. The Thunder didn't win a title with KD & Westbrook because management was cheap and let Harden go because they didn't want to pay him. The core of KD, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka went to the finals when they were so young. KD (4th year) Westbrook (3rd year), Harden and Ibaka (2nd year). After that it seemed they had a injury every year.

Watching Westbrook play with the raw intensity is a beauty of thing to watch. People can crap on his shot selection all they want, but I'd take a guy with the fire and intensity of Westbrook any day. Especially in a league where the regular season is so boring.

The only thing that was hard to see was that crap of team around him. Westbrook leaves with 2 mins in the 3rd up 12, and by the time the 4th begins it was down to a 3 point lead. The game was lost there.

And you think OKC blowing a 12 point lead has nothing to do with the way Westbrook plays?

Sure you sit a star player and you'll probably blow a few points. Understandable. What people seem to ignore though is how Westbrook's play likely has an impact on his teammates. You ever played with a ball hog? Standing there calling for the ball while they go 1 on 5, only dumping it to you when they can't score makes it incredibly hard to get going. The NBA is a league where the players are all about rhythm, muscle memory and consistency. Westbrook hogging the ball throws that all out the window for his teammates. Then when he sits down these guys are getting used to the ball again, they're not in rhythm when it comes to their shots and they won't find a rhythm because the defence clamps down on them fully aware that Westbrook is on the bench. It's not rocket science. It's hard to quantify it, but I'd be staggered if that isn't part of the reason OKC looks so poor when Westbrook isn't making plays. Guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Grant, McDermott etc are not high school role players completely incapable of making some nice plays.


A ball-hog with 14 assists. Its not like the other guys didn't have opportunities. Oladipo had 14 shots, Roberson had 12 shots, they had plenty of opportunities to find a rhythm.

If he wasn't racking up 14 assists on that ridiculous usage rate there would be serious issues.

He only passes when he can't score. He is not a guy finding players when they're hot, nor is he ever looking for extra passes. Grant, McDermott and Adams all could have had more opportunities, but Westbrook prefers to live and die by his own shooting.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#44 » by nbafan38 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:40 pm

flow wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
flow wrote:Only a person who didn't see the 4th quarter of last night's game can ask this question with a straight face.

.


Actually I saw the entire fourth quarter and while I agree Westbrook could've deferred a bit more primarily what I saw was gassed superstar with little help being outclassed by a superior team with so many offensive weapons.


No one was being outclassed. OKC led most of the game, and it was a 1-point game when Westbrook went all '**** it, I don't care what the score is or how much time is left, I'm taking this **** over myself, and I don't care what happens' mode. From there, he literally went 1-on-5 the rest of the game. His teammates weren't even on the court, as far as he was concerned. I was actually embarrassed for him. And felt bad for his teammates. Donovan should seriously have yanked him out of the game, because he threw it away.


Yea take westbrook out in the fourth quarter, I'm sure the Thunder without Westbrook would have outscored the rockets in the fourth quarter considering the Thunder without westbrook allowed a 12 point lead to turn to 3 in like 2 minutes in the 3rd quarter.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#45 » by Patches Perry » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm

DubTheVanDamage wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:
dontforget wrote:He's the new Kobe (pre- 2008 MVP season). I remember people were mocking his shot attempts and shot selections the years after Shaq left. People also said he couldn't win w/o Shaq. Then he did, and people found someone else to hate on (Lebron). Now fast-forward to today, KD leaves, people mock Westbrook for his shot selection, you can't win with him etc etc. The NBA is cyclical like that.


For any fans who have been around basketball forums for over a decade (I've been on forums since 2003), the similarities in Kobe criticisms and Westbrook criticisms are identical. I remember having these same exact arguments about Kobe when people said if Nash had Odom, Walton, Smush, etc that he would get the most out of them and make his teammates better. Kobe just wanted his numbers, made bad decisions, too stubborn, nobody wants to play with him, etc. Shaq couldn't stand him, Durant can't stand Westbrook. It's deja vu all over again.


I agree completely -- the arguments are very similar. Kobe didn't get a lot of credit for the championships with Shaq because he was viewed as the second best player on the team. Around the time that Shaq was pushed out, analytics was taking hold in the NBA and Kobe was the target. "High volume, low efficiency scorer" became the mantra for Kobe.

However, the narrative on Kobe changed significantly after his championships with Pau. Suddenly, he was a guy who could carry a team to victory. And he became more open, candid and likeable later in his career until one day, the villain became the hero.

Although Iverson didn't receive nearly as much hate during his career, he never got the redemption that Kobe did.

Then again, maybe it'll be easier for Westbrook than it was for Iverson; the perception of Harden has rapidly changed in one season.


Iverson is a fair comparison too, although I feel like Iverson was polarizing for off-court stuff more than on-court. I would love for Westbrook to get more complimentary pieces and shooters to space the floor. Then we could see if he could get the redemption Kobe did (although GS will be tough to beat without several more all-stars). Westbrook doesn't play exactly like how I want him to either. I wish he'd shoot less threes and be the defensive terror that he could be if he focused on it, but I'm not sure he is in position to do those things with the current roster. At this point, he is like Iverson in that the novelty of having him on the roster and getting to see him play every night outweighs the mediocrity that OKC has fallen under. That may not change soon.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#46 » by Illmatic12 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:42 pm

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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#47 » by lamscott » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:47 pm

Westbrook looks like Kobe part deux. he'll understand it sooner or later.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#48 » by Crooked-I » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:57 pm

lamscott wrote:Westbrook looks like Kobe part deux. he'll understand it sooner or later.


Yeah he's pretty much getting the Kobe treatment in 2006. Selfish, chucker, not a winner, doesn't make teammates better, etc. Kobe shut everyone up by winning tho. Maybe Westbrook will do the same(definitely not on that sorry ass Thunder team).
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#49 » by jason bourne » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:58 pm

He thinks Deadpool is the greatest movie ever.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#50 » by nbafan38 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:59 pm

Crooked-I wrote:
lamscott wrote:Westbrook looks like Kobe part deux. he'll understand it sooner or later.


Yeah he's pretty much getting the Kobe treatment in 2006. Selfish, chucker, not a winner, doesn't make teammates better, etc. Kobe shut everyone up by winning tho. Maybe Westbrook will do the same(definitely not on that sorry ass Thunder team).


Westbrook won't be able to become Kobe unless he somehow lands Blake Griffin as his Paul Gasol.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#51 » by MrCheerios » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:02 pm

Because he has terrible shot selection and has no conscience about putting them up, even when KD was there. The last five playoffs he averaged 20 shots per game and had a blistering 51.5 TS%. He tried to be the alpha and close games when Durant was much more efficient.

Do you see anyone criticizing Kawhi Leonard? No, because there's nothing to criticize. He takes 15 to 16 shots per game in the playoffs on 61.3 TS%. And he plays elite defense. He's basically the perfect player. Westbrook is far from perfect, despite being older his game is far less mature. He gives the haters plenty of ammo.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#52 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:02 pm

Many Warriors/Durant fans feel the need to downplay Westbrook's season in order to validate Durant's decision to leave OKC. Many Rockets/Harden fans feel the need to downplay Westbrook's season in order to prop up Harden's MVP case. It adds up to a lot of people with agendas grasping for any reason to blame Westbrook for everything that goes wrong.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#53 » by EAS Law » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:06 pm

RaptorRed wrote:
Shock Defeat wrote:If you played basketball you know how depressing it is to play with a guy who takes over half of your team's shots, even if you know that guy is way better than you. Every player when they are on the court has confidence that they can make a play, or that if they are open they are going to make that shot. It is demoralizing when they don't get the ball and have to watch one guy take on the other team by himself.


What ? That's not true. I mean if you are a conceited player that only cares about your own shots then you would be upset , but if you actually care about winning and westbrook is your best chance at scoring then you would love giving him the ball while you play defense , rebound and set screens.

I don't know. I can see this both ways.

I think it is helpful when your best player starts to attract a lot of attention and then dishes to you or your teammates for easy buckets rather than forcing stuff because they're the man.

I think having a great player like WB who also gets teammates involved and sets them up for easy buckets builds strong chemistry and translates to establishing confidence among teammates and by extension, wins for the club.

I'm not knocking Westbrook at all. I think he's the only reason that team is in the playoffs.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#54 » by RatherUnique » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:10 pm

shawn_hemp wrote:
flow wrote:Only a person who didn't see the 4th quarter of last night's game can ask this question with a straight face.

And I have no anti-Westbrook agenda. But it was a disgraceful display.




.


Well I mean, did you happen to watch the 3rd quarter? OKC was actually winning at that point

There are 48 mins available at the PG spot every night.

Russell played 41 of them. The Thunder beat the Rockets by 11 points in those minutes.

Semaj Christon, 5.7 PER rating, 39% TS, played the other 7 minutes. The Thunder lost by 15 points in those minutes.

Russell +11, Semaj -15 = -4.

Guess how much the Thunder lost the game by? :lol:

Russ had bad moments. Russ had good moments. They beat Houston by double digits during Russ' time on the court.

When he needed a breather, Oladipo/Billy Donovan had nothing.

Instead, we point the finger at a guy who led a net-positive unit during his time on the floor as if points scored & given up while he's on the bench don't contribute to the final score :lol:

Its crazy man
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#55 » by DubTheVanDamage » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:19 pm

Patches Perry wrote:
DubTheVanDamage wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:
For any fans who have been around basketball forums for over a decade (I've been on forums since 2003), the similarities in Kobe criticisms and Westbrook criticisms are identical. I remember having these same exact arguments about Kobe when people said if Nash had Odom, Walton, Smush, etc that he would get the most out of them and make his teammates better. Kobe just wanted his numbers, made bad decisions, too stubborn, nobody wants to play with him, etc. Shaq couldn't stand him, Durant can't stand Westbrook. It's deja vu all over again.


I agree completely -- the arguments are very similar. Kobe didn't get a lot of credit for the championships with Shaq because he was viewed as the second best player on the team. Around the time that Shaq was pushed out, analytics was taking hold in the NBA and Kobe was the target. "High volume, low efficiency scorer" became the mantra for Kobe.

However, the narrative on Kobe changed significantly after his championships with Pau. Suddenly, he was a guy who could carry a team to victory. And he became more open, candid and likeable later in his career until one day, the villain became the hero.

Although Iverson didn't receive nearly as much hate during his career, he never got the redemption that Kobe did.

Then again, maybe it'll be easier for Westbrook than it was for Iverson; the perception of Harden has rapidly changed in one season.


Iverson is a fair comparison too, although I feel like Iverson was polarizing for off-court stuff more than on-court. I would love for Westbrook to get more complimentary pieces and shooters to space the floor. Then we could see if he could get the redemption Kobe did (although GS will be tough to beat without several more all-stars). Westbrook doesn't play exactly like how I want him to either. I wish he'd shoot less threes and be the defensive terror that he could be if he focused on it, but I'm not sure he is in position to do those things with the current roster. At this point, he is like Iverson in that the novelty of having him on the roster and getting to see him play every night outweighs the mediocrity that OKC has fallen under. That may not change soon.


While I agree that the OKC roster limits Westbrook's options, I believe he plays a role, too. I think it was pretty clear what was going to happen as we saw Russ seethe on the bench as his teammates blew the lead.

I have been vocal in my criticism of Westbrook's rebounding numbers as inflated but I never accused him of stat padding because I've never seen clear evidence that he was hurting his team. Even though I saw him put minimal effort into defense at times, it wasn't surprising given his usage and play style. He cannot do everything, even if he tries. But there certainly were flashes of selfishness -- grabbing uncontested rebounds on missed free throws or grabbing rebounds out of the hands of big men. Likewise, clear signs of mistrust of his teammates: last night, Westbrook ignored an open McDermott a few times to take contested shots. He sounded contrite after the game, vowing to keep teammates more involved and I hope he does. Westbrook is an incredible talent and fun to watch when he's playing the right way (e.g. the first half last night).
Joffrey Lauvergne in one instance had two hands on the ball only for Westbrook to wrestle it away from him.

Adams finds it funny.

“As long as our team gets a rebound, it doesn’t matter,” Adams said. “There’s just some funny ones we mock him about.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#56 » by NBAFan93 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:20 pm

nbafan38 wrote:
The Box Office wrote:
Nolan wrote:His shot selection and decision making are big part of it.


MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Iverson, and all the greats get criticized. Except for Tim Duncan because he's boring haha. Anyways, we're armchair quarterbacks who do not play basketball anymore. In the heat of the moment, it's different.

The people who criticize are the ones who are jealous. It's playoff time. The things Russ does are 3 times harder to come by during this time. He's doing the best he can. His teammates are really bad.


Yea it's like people are blaming him for losing to a team thats just simply better than his. I guess that's what it comes down to, I don't get it. The rockets are supposed to handle the Thunder.


Yeah - he's trying to create an upset and beat a team that is better than his (Houston has been heavily favored to win this series all along). He came very close last night and failed at the end for various reasons (one of which was exhaustion) so people are ripping him apart.

People love to trash people who fail and praise those who succeed - what's the phrase, "success has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan". If the Thunder win the next 2 games it will be back to him being the greatest ever again.

I love Westbrook as a player and root for him and the Thunder no matter who they play. I like Houston a lot too, which makes this series a struggle for me because I don't want to see either team's season end - but all of the Westbrook trashing and comparing him to Harden by their fans over this MVP race is starting to annoy me cause I think it's uncalled for...it's like their fans spend more time blaming Westbrook for losing than praising their own players for having a great game. The Golden State hate towards him is even more disturbing.

Harden seems like a cool guy though and I think he will be happy for Westbrook if Westbrook is MVP and vice versa about Westbrook for him. Not sure KD will be happy for Westbrook though. Of course, I think very few people are going to be happy for KD if he gets his ring this year either so I guess it goes both ways.

Also wanted to add, that if the Thunder get swept in this series, I don't think Russ is going to be too thrilled over the MVP. Dude wants to win more than anything - all this individual stuff doesn't mean as much to him as many think - you watch his press interviews after a loss and he is just devastated and angry. I think he'd give the triple double and MVPs up in a heartbeat if the Thunder could make it to the finals.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#57 » by nbafan38 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:24 pm

NBAFan93 wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
The Box Office wrote:
MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Iverson, and all the greats get criticized. Except for Tim Duncan because he's boring haha. Anyways, we're armchair quarterbacks who do not play basketball anymore. In the heat of the moment, it's different.

The people who criticize are the ones who are jealous. It's playoff time. The things Russ does are 3 times harder to come by during this time. He's doing the best he can. His teammates are really bad.


Yea it's like people are blaming him for losing to a team thats just simply better than his. I guess that's what it comes down to, I don't get it. The rockets are supposed to handle the Thunder.


Yeah - he's trying to create an upset and beat a team that is better than his (Houston has been heavily favored to win this series all along). He came very close last night and failed at the end for various reasons (one of which was exhaustion) so people are ripping him apart.

People love to trash people who fail and praise those who succeed - what's the phrase, "success has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan". If the Thunder win the next 2 games it will be back to him being the greatest ever again.

I love Westbrook as a player and root for him and the Thunder no matter who they play. I like Houston a lot too, which makes this series a struggle for me because I don't want to see either team's season end - but all of the Westbrook trashing and comparing him to Harden by their fans over this MVP race is starting to annoy me cause I think it's uncalled for...it's like their fans spend more time blaming Westbrook for losing than praising their own players for having a great game. The Golden State hate towards him is even more disturbing.

Harden seems like a cool guy though and I think he will be happy for Westbrook if Westbrook is MVP and vice versus about Westbrook for him. Not sure KD will be happy for Westbrook though. Of course, I think very few people are going to be happy for KD if he gets his ring this year either so I guess it goes both ways.


I like Harden too and would love to see the rockets win the west. But I agree with you that it feels like at least some rocket fans are more concerned with bashing westbrook to prove that Harden should be MVP than focusing on their own team.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#58 » by KFL » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:31 pm

everyone gets bashed, I thought that is wait social media was invented for?
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#59 » by Patches Perry » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:32 pm

DubTheVanDamage wrote:
Patches Perry wrote:
DubTheVanDamage wrote:
I agree completely -- the arguments are very similar. Kobe didn't get a lot of credit for the championships with Shaq because he was viewed as the second best player on the team. Around the time that Shaq was pushed out, analytics was taking hold in the NBA and Kobe was the target. "High volume, low efficiency scorer" became the mantra for Kobe.

However, the narrative on Kobe changed significantly after his championships with Pau. Suddenly, he was a guy who could carry a team to victory. And he became more open, candid and likeable later in his career until one day, the villain became the hero.

Although Iverson didn't receive nearly as much hate during his career, he never got the redemption that Kobe did.

Then again, maybe it'll be easier for Westbrook than it was for Iverson; the perception of Harden has rapidly changed in one season.


Iverson is a fair comparison too, although I feel like Iverson was polarizing for off-court stuff more than on-court. I would love for Westbrook to get more complimentary pieces and shooters to space the floor. Then we could see if he could get the redemption Kobe did (although GS will be tough to beat without several more all-stars). Westbrook doesn't play exactly like how I want him to either. I wish he'd shoot less threes and be the defensive terror that he could be if he focused on it, but I'm not sure he is in position to do those things with the current roster. At this point, he is like Iverson in that the novelty of having him on the roster and getting to see him play every night outweighs the mediocrity that OKC has fallen under. That may not change soon.


While I agree that the OKC roster limits Westbrook's options, I believe he plays a role, too. I think it was pretty clear what was going to happen as we saw Russ seethe on the bench as his teammates blew the lead.

I have been vocal in my criticism of Westbrook's rebounding numbers as inflated but I never accused him of stat padding because I've never seen clear evidence that he was hurting his team. Even though I saw him put minimal effort into defense at times, it wasn't surprising given his usage and play style. He cannot do everything, even if he tries. But there certainly were flashes of selfishness -- grabbing uncontested rebounds on missed free throws or grabbing rebounds out of the hands of big men. Likewise, clear signs of mistrust of his teammates: last night, Westbrook ignored an open McDermott a few times to take contested shots. He sounded contrite after the game, vowing to keep teammates more involved and I hope he does. Westbrook is an incredible talent and fun to watch when he's playing the right way (e.g. the first half last night).


I agree, that's fair. To add to that though, I don't know that there is a correct way to play in Westbrook's situation when you're simply over-matched on talent. We've seen players get criticized for not shooting enough, shooting too much, not shooting the right shots, etc. Bottom line is, losing is not a good look. This is not to justify Westbrook's 4th last night, which was completely terrible. I agree about McDermott.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#60 » by bmurph128 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:32 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Many Warriors/Durant fans feel the need to downplay Westbrook's season in order to validate Durant's decision to leave OKC. Many Rockets/Harden fans feel the need to downplay Westbrook's season in order to prop up Harden's MVP case. It adds up to a lot of people with agendas grasping for any reason to blame Westbrook for everything that goes wrong.



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