How come Westbrook gets bashed so much

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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#81 » by AZNKidd » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:44 pm

I think he gets bashed for the same reason Kobe does in that they have so much desire to win that it makes them not approachable. However, RWB will get more flack from a basketball perspective because Kobe was such a cerebral player where he won't use brunt force to get his way.


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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#82 » by Saint_Killa » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:45 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Saint_Killa wrote:In what world Steven Adams, Taj Gibson, Andre Roberson, Victor Oladipo, Enes Kanter, Doug Mcdermott are bad players?

In this world. The world where Adams and Roberson were the only other players on the whole team with a positive BPM, and they were +0.5 and +0.1 respectively. The world where the Thunder were -8.2 net points per 100 possessions with Westbrook off the court. The world where the Thunder blew a 12-point lead in a game they were dominating as soon as Westbrook had to take a quick breather on the bench.

LeBron had a freakin Larry Hughes and his team made to the finals..

So basically, your biggest criticism of Westbrook is that he's "only" an MVP-caliber superstar and not a GOAT candidate like LeBron is. And that's supposed to diminish Westbrook as a player in his own right? :crazy:


He doesn't make his teammates better. That's Russ..
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#83 » by MrCheerios » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:47 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Saint_Killa wrote:In what world Steven Adams, Taj Gibson, Andre Roberson, Victor Oladipo, Enes Kanter, Doug Mcdermott are bad players?

In this world. The world where Adams and Roberson were the only other players on the whole team with a positive BPM, and they were +0.5 and +0.1 respectively. The world where the Thunder were -8.2 net points per 100 possessions with Westbrook off the court. The world where the Thunder blew a 12-point lead in a game they were dominating as soon as Westbrook had to take a quick breather on the bench.

LeBron had a freakin Larry Hughes and his team made to the finals..

So basically, your biggest criticism of Westbrook is that he's "only" an MVP-caliber superstar and not a GOAT candidate like LeBron is. And that's supposed to diminish Westbrook as a player in his own right? :crazy:

When was the game lost? In the 12-3 run that Houston had at the end of the 3rd when Westbrook sat? Or the 10-0 run in two minutes at the end of the 4th when Westbrook was in? Houston went on runs throughout the game. Two of them when Westbrook was in, one when he was on the bench. But you only focus on the one where he sat.

At what point does Westbrook get held accountable? Did you even see the shots he took in the 4th? Even if his teammates suck, that's no excuse for throwing up garbage. He said himself that he needs to do a better job of finding his teammates late.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#84 » by jbk1234 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:47 pm

Westbrook is probably the best athlete in the league but he hasn't learned how to play in a lower gear yet and it hurts him and the team in half court settings. Wall was like that for a while but he seems to have figure it out at least a little.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#85 » by HurricaneKid » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:53 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
leolozon wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Many Warriors/Durant fans feel the need to downplay Westbrook's season in order to validate Durant's decision to leave OKC. Many Rockets/Harden fans feel the need to downplay Westbrook's season in order to prop up Harden's MVP case. It adds up to a lot of people with agendas grasping for any reason to blame Westbrook for everything that goes wrong.


About 7% of the league's fans... 2 teams out of 30...

You want to talk about those that praises Westbrook for everything that goes right and ignore when everything goes wrong?

Some people just prefer when basketball is played as team's game and not as an individual game. Because, you know, basketball is actually a team's game, and some people think that you should win as a team and lose as a team.

You can appreciate a team game without being delusional. I hate isoball and heroball as much as anyone, but I'm not going to criticize Westbrook too harshly for it when he's literally the only option on a terrible team. Whipping the ball around like the Spurs do won't magically turn Roberson into Steph Curry or Oladipo into D-Wade. The Thunder still would have lost if Westbrook spent the fourth quarter setting his teammates up with bricks instead of laying all the bricks himself. The difference is that Westbrook heroballing still has a higher ceiling than Westbrook passing - that's how bad the Thunder's roster is.


This is what I hate.

Its apparent that OKC doesn't have a massive amount of offensive talent on the team and that they are going to rely on Westbrook to break down the opposition's defense. The problem is what he does once they start collapsing. In the 1st half he had 11 assists and OKC scored 68 points and were getting great looks. In the second half he was looking for his shot and only had 2 assists and OKC scored 43 points. And if you co-sign on that 4th quarter there is no common ground we can share. Its not JUST the 18 shots. Its that he was bringing the ball up, dribbling 8 times and taking HORRIFIC shots. No one else on the team was even touching the ball. You CANNOT blame the "others" when you are literally the only player touching the ball. And on a night when only 1 other Thunder player who played 5 min shot <50% (Dipo) it should have been evident that he needed to get back into distribution mode.

Its certainly true that OKC could never have won without Westbrook last night. At the same time they absolutely lost because of him as well.

And quite possibly the most frustrating play last night to me was down 6 with the ball and time running low (12 seconds) it was clear that the Thunder needed a 3 to stay in the game to get it to 1 possession. Instead, he took the basket to get his 50 points and literally gave away the game to get it. Its one thing to do it on a Tuesday in February against the Kings. Its another to do it in a must win playoff game. Giving him credit for a 50 point triple double when he literally GOT TO 50 by giving the game away boggles the mind.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#86 » by HurricaneKid » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:57 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Saint_Killa wrote:In what world Steven Adams, Taj Gibson, Andre Roberson, Victor Oladipo, Enes Kanter, Doug Mcdermott are bad players?

In this world. The world where Adams and Roberson were the only other players on the whole team with a positive BPM, and they were +0.5 and +0.1 respectively. The world where the Thunder were -8.2 net points per 100 possessions with Westbrook off the court. The world where the Thunder blew a 12-point lead in a game they were dominating as soon as Westbrook had to take a quick breather on the bench.



BPM is a box score metric. So by taking away his teammates rebounds and in general devouring all the box score stats he is literally taking others BPM and adding it to his own. Its a horrible metric to point to when he had almost 10% higher of a usage% than any player in NBA history.
fishnc wrote:If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and LeBron, I would shoot LeBron twice.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#87 » by bmurph128 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:03 pm

Wish the league would intervene and have Westbrook traded to the Cavs.

Cavs and Warriors were pretty even last year - they got Durant, only fair that the Cavs get Westbrook - especially with every bashing him.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#88 » by HurricaneKid » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:09 pm

As incredible as Westbrook has been this year, he will NEVER have postseason success playing the way he did last night. KD/Harden/RWB/Ibaka/Reggie Jackson/etc couldn't win because they couldn't all play together. If my life depends on winning a title and I am in a draft with all the league's players I'm not taking Russ in the top 25. There is no question he is among the best players in the league. He just doesn't play winning basketball. And after 9 years in the league I think its getting to be a near certainty that he never does.
fishnc wrote:If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and LeBron, I would shoot LeBron twice.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#89 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:35 pm

MrCheerios wrote:When was the game lost? In the 12-3 run that Houston had at the end of the 3rd when Westbrook sat? Or the 10-0 run in two minutes at the end of the 4th when Westbrook was in?

The 12-3 run is what completely flipped the momentum of the game.

At what point does Westbrook get held accountable? Did you even see the shots he took in the 4th? Even if his teammates suck, that's no excuse for throwing up garbage.

I'm not saying Westbrook took nothing but great shots in the 4th. But I just don't see how the Thunder would have won if Oladipo, Roberson, or Grant got to shoot more. Chances are, they'd have just clanged a bunch of bricks too and the result would have been the same.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#90 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:37 pm

HurricaneKid wrote:As incredible as Westbrook has been this year, he will NEVER have postseason success playing the way he did last night.

I agree with you there. Presti needs to be fired so a GM who knows what they're doing can come in and give Westbrook some help. That way, he won't feel like he has to do literally everything for his team.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#91 » by HurricaneKid » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:47 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
HurricaneKid wrote:As incredible as Westbrook has been this year, he will NEVER have postseason success playing the way he did last night.

I agree with you there. Presti needs to be fired so a GM who knows what they're doing can come in and give Westbrook some help. That way, he won't feel like he has to do literally everything for his team.


This is where you are letting him off the hook. His style of play, i.e.: that 4th quarter, is why Harden, Reggie Jackson, and KD are all on other teams. All three guys DESPERATELY WANTED TO LEAVE. This is his 9th year and last night has happened over and over and over again. At some point its gotta be on him. Because this is the first year he HASN'T had massive talent on the team.

FWIW, I was prepared, after a brilliant 3 quarters, of coming here and giving him props for figuring it out. Until he proved his detractors right yet again.
fishnc wrote:If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and LeBron, I would shoot LeBron twice.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#92 » by Hindenburg » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:59 pm

Despite being extremely athletically gifted and talented, he's a low IQ player who gets overly cocky and dense with other players and the media.

Doesnt help that his fan club treat him like some GOAT and seems to think Westbrook never does anything wrong
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#93 » by Lazy Faizy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:01 pm

Westbrook gets criticized because he's a superstar. Superstars get criticized. That's all there is to it.

Westbrook also admitted after the game that he needs to do a better job of getting his teammates involved in the 4th qtr. So at least he realizes it. Let's see how game 3 plays out.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#94 » by MrCheerios » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:05 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
MrCheerios wrote:When was the game lost? In the 12-3 run that Houston had at the end of the 3rd when Westbrook sat? Or the 10-0 run in two minutes at the end of the 4th when Westbrook was in?

The 12-3 run is what completely flipped the momentum of the game.


OKC built up an 8 point lead minutes into the 4th, momentum swayed back and forth. I don't see how the 12-3 run was any worse than the 9-0 run in the 2nd or the 10-0 run at the end of the 4th to put the game out of reach. Westbrook was there for two of the big runs. If anything, the 10-0 was the biggest backbreaker.

At what point does Westbrook get held accountable? Did you even see the shots he took in the 4th? Even if his teammates suck, that's no excuse for throwing up garbage.

I'm not saying Westbrook took nothing but great shots in the 4th. But I just don't see how the Thunder would have won if Oladipo, Roberson, or Grant got to shoot more. Chances are, they'd have just clanged a bunch of bricks too and the result would have been the same.

You're downplaying his shot selection. He took increasingly terrible shots. He shot 4-18. Even if he didn't want to pass to his teammates, he can create better shots for himself than that. He also had DMD open multiple times and never passed to him. Even the TNT crew, who all consider him the MVP, said he's too good to settle for those crappy, contested jumpers. He acknowledged it too. He clearly played the wrong way, why even defend it?

Also, Westbrook had 11 assists in the first half and OKC had control of the game, but why pass to teammates, right?
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#95 » by johanliebert » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:13 pm

cause everybody due to this analytic age thinks their an analyst. thus westbrook is easy to pick on..as you see in this thread countless people who have no idea what they're talking about showing everybody they were always right.

its a high screen and roll league and thats what their offense is. they run a swing set(spurs) but often stick to the PNR cause that is what their coach is known for(spread PNR).

lot of these casuals believe ball movement is the cure to all.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#96 » by johanliebert » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm

MrCheerios wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
MrCheerios wrote:When was the game lost? In the 12-3 run that Houston had at the end of the 3rd when Westbrook sat? Or the 10-0 run in two minutes at the end of the 4th when Westbrook was in?

The 12-3 run is what completely flipped the momentum of the game.


OKC built up an 8 point lead minutes into the 4th, momentum swayed back and forth. I don't see how the 12-3 run was any worse than the 9-0 run in the 2nd or the 10-0 run at the end of the 4th to put the game out of reach. Westbrook was there for two of the big runs. If anything, the 10-0 was the biggest backbreaker.

At what point does Westbrook get held accountable? Did you even see the shots he took in the 4th? Even if his teammates suck, that's no excuse for throwing up garbage.

I'm not saying Westbrook took nothing but great shots in the 4th. But I just don't see how the Thunder would have won if Oladipo, Roberson, or Grant got to shoot more. Chances are, they'd have just clanged a bunch of bricks too and the result would have been the same.

You're downplaying his shot selection. He took increasingly terrible shots. He shot 4-18. Even if he didn't want to pass to his teammates, he can create better shots for himself than that. He also had DMD open multiple times and never passed to him. Even the TNT crew, who all consider him the MVP, said he's too good to settle for those crappy, contested jumpers. He acknowledged it too. He clearly played the wrong way, why even defend it?

Also, Westbrook had 11 assists in the first half and OKC had control of the game, but why pass to teammates, right?



id say the run whre dipo and the bench unite gave up a 12-3 run was the back breaker.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#97 » by HurricaneKid » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:18 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not saying Westbrook took nothing but great shots in the 4th. But I just don't see how the Thunder would have won if Oladipo, Roberson, or Grant got to shoot more. Chances are, they'd have just clanged a bunch of bricks too and the result would have been the same.


So you didn't see any difference between the first half when Russell had 11 assists and they scored 68 points and the second half when he had 2 assists and they scored 43 points?

Russ was absolutely going to have to be the one to break down the defense but rather than allow the defense to shade him and push him into 22 foot jumpers while moving laterally, he needed to force the defense to commit and find his open teammate. He literally didn't make a single pass in 5-6 possessions in the 4th. That cannot happen.

Last night:
Roberson shot 50%
Adams shot 67%
Taj shot 50%
Grant shot 50%
Kanter shot 50%
McBuckets had a TS% of 1.200% yet Westbrook was looking him off to shoot heavily contested 22 footers.

At some point people need to acknowledge that YES, Russell is going to have to help his teammates get shots, but that OKC is at its best when he finds them. Otherwise its simply too easy to defend him. The opposition can bring 2+ defenders and goad him into taking horrifying shots when he gets into that mindset. If he were to simply take what the defense gives him he can find those guys open under the basket. But he wasn't even looking.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#98 » by Winter » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:24 pm

Because he is such amazing athletic, but when the pressure build, and looks like time is tight, he will have tendency to believe he is the only one that can break the defense and remove the pressure. When it happens, his mind becomes 1 vs 5, superman mood, and he can not deliverer the result with that mood every time. He has tendency try to end the game in one shot.

Kobe was lucky he got Shaq with him on his first term, and a coach that can force him to slow down and ignore the potential consequence
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#99 » by lamscott » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:42 pm

Once again. Westbrook is Kobe Part Deux. His understanding will come like when Kobe went to the playoffs with Smush and Kwame Brown.

Hopefully Westbrook doesn't pull the "Fine, I'll pass to my teammates stunt" Kobe pulled once or twice in the playoffs. Hahahaha, that shut everyone up and then everyone criticized him for passing to much.

I'm a Kobe fan by the way.
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Re: How come Westbrook gets bashed so much 

Post#100 » by JonFromVA » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:15 pm

A lot of fans have grown to believe that a PG makes the guys around him better by creating for them (ex: draw & kick). When the players around him miss those shots, it's their fault. What more could they ask for then an open look?

But there's a lot of ways to create offense, and the traditional role of a PG is as a leader, an extension of the coach on the floor. That means running the offense a different way if drive & kick isn't getting it done.

Kind of hard to do for a one note player who keeps pounding that same note.

LeBron is going to go down as one of the greatest of all time, but I can't count how many players I've seen wilt under the pressure of standing there watching LeBron dribble the clock down, only to drive at the last moment, and then shift all the pressure on whoever the defense decided to ignore.

It's not really their fault.

So, yeah, surround Russell Westbrook with clutch shooters and run at a fast pace so they can get their shots up and stay in the flow. He'd be very successful as the engine of that sort of system, just as Harden has been.

But it's still one note.

And great playoff coaches will find ways to counter that note.

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