Would OKC win more games with a different point guard?

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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#41 » by 76ciology » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:43 pm

Will Rockets win more games with Westbrook instead of Harden?

Will Warriors win more games with Westbrook instead of Curry?
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#42 » by Ritzo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:44 pm

RCM88x wrote:
Coxy wrote:
RCM88x wrote:No, I actually don't know if there is any PG in the history of the game would could do more with this roster.

Westbrook might be the GOAT floor raising PG, especially after this season where he brings a roster that probably would win 5 games without him to the 6th seed.


Disagree massively.

In the history of the game? Geese dude, I can think of several, starting with Magic, Penny, Steph, CP3, Nash, Isaiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Stockton. Not to mention more current players like Wall and Harden.

The OKC roster is pretty decn t, just playing in bizarro land with a guy that wants to dominate the ball like never before, and the coaches are letting him do it. It's all very entertaining, and great stuff on getting to the 6th seed, but I fear for anyone playing in a Westbrook team moving forward. They aren't going to enjoy playing the game much soon, just like Durant found out.


Do you know what floor raising means? I cannot comprehend how someone would think that this team would be better with Nash, Isaiah Thomas, Kidd, or Stockton. None of those guys have played on rosters with zero two way talent like Westbrook currently is, nore have any of them lead a roster as bad as this to the playoffs. Especially Isaiah... like what?

Also, what world is this roster "pretty decent"? Outside of Westbrook they have like 2 average players and Kanter.


2012 old Nash finished .500 record that season, and Granny Hill was their second best player that time. I could imagine Adams getting fed like Gortat ( even Warrick looks so good at that time ) and Dipo as an elite slasher if Nash replace Russ.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#43 » by Triples333 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:47 pm

Yoshun wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
Not a knock on Curry hes a special player but I am just saying Westbrook has never had the benefit of playing in a great offensive system that could maximize his potential. This is even the reason Durant gave for leaving OKC for GS.

COULD Westbrook play in a system like the Warriors or Spurs? I'm not convinced he would be able to relinquish the reigns on his love off all things ISO. This is a PG who played alongside the top offensive force in the game and would routinely be the one taking the most field goal attempts (that player likely left OKC despite them being title contenders on account of this). I don't think he cares much for team orientated play. But maybe some day he will prove me/us wrong.


Durant averaged more shots per game every season they played together with 2 exceptions: the 12/13 season and the 14/15 (during which Durant was hurt and played only 27 games).

It should be pretty obvious by now Westbrook can play with another superstar. He has done it for most of his career and it's yielded deep playoff runs and finals appearances. He's already proven you wrong.

They ran an ISO heavy offense with no comparison to the style we see in Golden State or San Antonio. I'm not sure you grasped my comment.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#44 » by Warriorfan » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:52 pm

Its interesting if Curry, Harden, Paul were traded to OKC for Westbrook they would fall in the rankings and OKC maybe move up only to a 4. 5 seed.

GS would be a 2 seed become Iso ball team
Hou a 6th seed less assists worse spacing
LAC 6th seed Jordan would be less relevant.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#45 » by Scizzup » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:59 pm

Yoshun wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
Not a knock on Curry hes a special player but I am just saying Westbrook has never had the benefit of playing in a great offensive system that could maximize his potential. This is even the reason Durant gave for leaving OKC for GS.

COULD Westbrook play in a system like the Warriors or Spurs? I'm not convinced he would be able to relinquish the reigns on his love off all things ISO. This is a PG who played alongside the top offensive force in the game and would routinely be the one taking the most field goal attempts (that player likely left OKC despite them being title contenders on account of this). I don't think he cares much for team orientated play. But maybe some day he will prove me/us wrong.


Durant averaged more shots per game every season they played together with 2 exceptions: the 12/13 season and the 14/15 (during which Durant was hurt and played only 27 games).

It should be pretty obvious by now Westbrook can play with another superstar. He has done it for most of his career and it's yielded deep playoff runs and finals appearances. He's already proven you wrong.


One of the reasons that made KD/Russ work so much is because KD is one of the most efficient volume scorer ever. This allowed left over shots to go Russ or others. This is also why the Curry/Klay/KD works as well as it is. if KD was a 56% TS wing he would have demanded more shots and that might have been a problem between KD/Russ earlier.

With that said I think Russ can play with another star but probably a big man.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#46 » by alebaba » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:46 pm

Sorry Warriors fans, there's no way Curry can drag this okc team to the playoff or any pg for that matter.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#47 » by alebaba » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:47 pm

Warriorfan wrote:Its interesting if Curry, Harden, Paul were traded to OKC for Westbrook they would fall in the rankings and OKC maybe move up only to a 4. 5 seed.

GS would be a 2 seed become Iso ball team
Hou a 6th seed less assists worse spacing
LAC 6th seed Jordan would be less relevant.


Westbrook would be unguardable, given how much spacing the warriors has. Go watch how teams are playing him and you will understand why. You need at least 2 help defender to stop Westbrook from going to the paint.

Curry had a terrible game 2, yet they still blew out the Portland like it was nothing, show you how stack his team are.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#48 » by r0drig0lac » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:58 pm

no way (currently or in history)
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#49 » by Triples333 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:33 pm

nbafan38 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:
Not a knock on Curry hes a special player but I am just saying Westbrook has never had the benefit of playing in a great offensive system that could maximize his potential. This is even the reason Durant gave for leaving OKC for GS.

COULD Westbrook play in a system like the Warriors or Spurs? I'm not convinced he would be able to relinquish the reigns on his love off all things ISO. This is a PG who played alongside the top offensive force in the game and would routinely be the one taking the most field goal attempts (that player likely left OKC despite them being title contenders on account of this). I don't think he cares much for team orientated play. But maybe some day he will prove me/us wrong.


Yes I think if you put Westbrook on an elite offensiver team he would play differently. Did you not watch the first three quarters of the last game? Westbrook was kicking it out to his teammates all night when they were hitting shots and 3's. It's only once they went cold that he went into takeover mode.

And to be clear, by "takeover mode" you mean shoot 4-18 in a single quarter while doing nothing defensively.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#50 » by BallerTalk » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:02 pm

Let's see...

Is there another point guard who:
Can score like Westbrook but preferably with better range and efficiency,
Rack up assists like Westbrook but preferably with better playmaking ability,
Grab rebounds like Westbrook but without compromising the big men,
is capable of carrying an offense but without icing out teammates
and has comparable playoff experience and/or demonstrated an ability to lift teams with lesser talent?

Hmmm.

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Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#51 » by sikma42 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:13 pm

mihail_petkov wrote:
nbafan38 wrote:I'd actually like to see Curry and Westbrook switch places. I am really curious to see how it would go. Curry has been so pampered playing in such a great offensive system while westbrook has played with crappy offensive sets his whole career.

You understand that Curry is the system because he is of the GOAT off-ball players. When you have ball dominant player like Westbrook who is terrible off-ball player, Warriors will play in completely different system, similar to Thunder's - iso after iso.


Wonder how that works when you aren't playing next to another historically good shooter in Klay Thompson and spacers all over the floor. If two guys go to you and leave Andre Roberson open its a bit different.

One thing about Westbrook that is underrated in this comparison is his passing. He is a better passer than Curry, especially in tight spaces. Force Curry to act as a point guard and constantly create plays and you'll see his issues compacted. He has had it easy with so many escape valves on offense.



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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#52 » by Johnlac1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:31 pm

MoMan24 wrote:See your asking the wrong question here I feel. More wins maybe. But would the team be in a better position to be successful. I would say yes. Someone like Wall plays elite defense, empowers his teammates and most importantly knows his own limitations. Chris Paul, and even Harden this year get the most out his teammates. To me Westbrook gets the most out of Westbrook. Would they have better stats? No. But Oladipo, Adams, Dougy, Robertson would have more confidence, they would be more empowered. When Russ is on the court your job is to defend, try to get him a rebound and shot only when he passes you the ball. trying to manufacture a triple double is not a winning formula.
The question is: can OKC contend for a title with WB as the pg with the present players? Can he make these guys better players?
I'd have to say no. WB is too concerned about WB's stats, and I don't think he has the pg IQ of Paul, Curry, Rondo, and others. That doesn't mean that another elite pg could make OKC contenders in the present situation. They're going to need another A player or two.
Who among the Thunder players can improve to be a force? Many people would probably choose Adams given his athleticism and youth. Oladipo can get better. Sabonis can get better.
But would those players improving a level make OKC a contender? And can they go to the next level with WB as the pg/ballhog?
I'd say they'll improve, but not as much as they would with a different, more team-conscious pg.
But WB already had a bunch of A level players. They're all gone now. Did they leave because of WB? Who knows?
But unless WB gets some a few supers to help out or some of the other Thunder players develop into supers (doubtful), OKC will never be a contender with WB at pg.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#53 » by Coxy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:33 pm

RCM88x wrote:
Coxy wrote:
RCM88x wrote:No, I actually don't know if there is any PG in the history of the game would could do more with this roster.

Westbrook might be the GOAT floor raising PG, especially after this season where he brings a roster that probably would win 5 games without him to the 6th seed.


Disagree massively.

In the history of the game? Geese dude, I can think of several, starting with Magic, Penny, Steph, CP3, Nash, Isaiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Stockton. Not to mention more current players like Wall and Harden.

The OKC roster is pretty decn t, just playing in bizarro land with a guy that wants to dominate the ball like never before, and the coaches are letting him do it. It's all very entertaining, and great stuff on getting to the 6th seed, but I fear for anyone playing in a Westbrook team moving forward. They aren't going to enjoy playing the game much soon, just like Durant found out.


Do you know what floor raising means? I cannot comprehend how someone would think that this team would be better with Nash, Isaiah Thomas, Kidd, or Stockton. None of those guys have played on rosters with zero two way talent like Westbrook currently is, nore have any of them lead a roster as bad as this to the playoffs. Especially Isaiah... like what?

Also, what world is this roster "pretty decent"? Outside of Westbrook they have like 2 average players and Kanter.


Meh, I actually think the OKC players are pretty good. Adams is good, Taj is good, Kanter can be good if used correctly, Roberson is a fantastic defender, Dipo is really good. I think with a PG like George Hill, they'd be better than current. I have no data to back that up, so just a personal opinion. I think Westbrooks play maximises Westbrook, but minimises the other really good players on the team, making them seem below average.

Also, all of the players could and would do a better job of it with the Thunder. Yes, Isaiah Thomas would absolutely take that team to the top of the West. He lead a team to B2B titles in the height of the Lakers/Celtics/Bulls teams in the late 80's and is an all time great ffs. Westbrooks play, but mostly his attitude hinders the Thunder as much as it does help them, in my humble opinion.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#54 » by Johnlac1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:38 pm

RCM88x wrote:
Coxy wrote:
RCM88x wrote:No, I actually don't know if there is any PG in the history of the game would could do more with this roster.

Westbrook might be the GOAT floor raising PG, especially after this season where he brings a roster that probably would win 5 games without him to the 6th seed.


Disagree massively.

In the history of the game? Geese dude, I can think of several, starting with Magic, Penny, Steph, CP3, Nash, Isaiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Stockton. Not to mention more current players like Wall and Harden.

The OKC roster is pretty decn t, just playing in bizarro land with a guy that wants to dominate the ball like never before, and the coaches are letting him do it. It's all very entertaining, and great stuff on getting to the 6th seed, but I fear for anyone playing in a Westbrook team moving forward. They aren't going to enjoy playing the game much soon, just like Durant found out.


Do you know what floor raising means? I cannot comprehend how someone would think that this team would be better with Nash, Isaiah Thomas, Kidd, or Stockton. None of those guys have played on rosters with zero two way talent like Westbrook currently is, nore have any of them lead a roster as bad as this to the playoffs. Especially Isaiah... like what?

Also, what world is this roster "pretty decent"? Outside of Westbrook they have like 2 average players and Kanter.

"nore have any of them lead a roster as bad as this to the playoffs"
You mean the team that had the tenth-rated defense no thanks to WB? The team with Adams, Gibson, Kanter, Oladipo? Really?
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#55 » by Johnlac1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:43 pm

RCM88x wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Yea, you're right... they'd probably go 82-0. #fakemvp

They did play Minnesota in that game, who were clearly tanking the last few weeks of the season and were bad regardless. They finished the season what... 3-13 or something like that. With two of those wins coming by 1 point and the 3rd against the Lakers.

They probably should have finished 0-16, would have moved ahead of Orlando in the Lottery.

Well I'd say getting smacked out of the 1st round while shooting 34.8% from the field on 33 attempts +6.5 turnovers a game is a better argument to back up your "#fakeMVP" comment.


They're getting beat by a team that has a far better roster 2-15. Beverly, Ariza, Gordon, Williams have all completely outplayed anyone on OKC outside of Westbrook. I mean, who's he going to defer to? Oladipo? Robertson? They have no perimeter talent outside of Westbrook and its showing.

BTW here is Oladipo's stat line for the first two games:

8.5/6/3/1/1/1.5tov on 19/8/100 for a .29 TS%, yea... He's shooting 19% from the field and 8% from 3pt with 13FGA attempts per game which is only 1FGA below his season average. ORTG of 70, DRTG of 120.

The fact that people even expect this to be a competitive series is all due to how good Westbrook is. Without him they probably would lose every game by 50, everyone on this roster has been awful outside of Robertson who's probably played two of the best offensive games of his career, scoring 18 and 12 points... just think about that.
"They have no perimeter talent outside of Westbrook and its showing."
Uh, Oladipo and McDermott are both far better three ball shooters than WB.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#56 » by Johnlac1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:44 pm

mtron929 wrote:I just get the sense that it's difficult to scale up with Westbrook. For example, let's say a prime Dirk was on the team. Naturally, everyone knows that Dirk is one of the best scorers of all time (much better than Russ) and not only that Dirk is one of the best playoff performers of all time. Thus, on a team like this, you should think that Dirk should be #1 and Russ should be #2 option. And if the Thunder had point guards such as CP3 or Steve Nash, I would totally imagine that this would be the case.

However, why do I get the sense that if prime Dirk was on this team, Russ would still be the one taking the most shots and most of the shots in the 4th quarter in a tight game? That is my (negative) view of Westbrook and his approach to the game.
You're saying WB is not a very smart player? You are correct.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#57 » by Patches Perry » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:49 pm

Coxy wrote:I think with a PG like George Hill, they'd be better than current.


PG- George Hill
SG- Victor Oladipo
SF- Andre Roberson
PF- Taj Gibson
C - Steven Adams

Bench- Enes Kanter
Bench- Semaj Christon
Bench- Domantas Sabonis
Bench- Doug McDermott
Bench- Jerami Grant

50 win team?
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#58 » by RCM88x » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:50 pm

Johnlac1 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Triples333 wrote:Well I'd say getting smacked out of the 1st round while shooting 34.8% from the field on 33 attempts +6.5 turnovers a game is a better argument to back up your "#fakeMVP" comment.


They're getting beat by a team that has a far better roster 2-15. Beverly, Ariza, Gordon, Williams have all completely outplayed anyone on OKC outside of Westbrook. I mean, who's he going to defer to? Oladipo? Robertson? They have no perimeter talent outside of Westbrook and its showing.

BTW here is Oladipo's stat line for the first two games:

8.5/6/3/1/1/1.5tov on 19/8/100 for a .29 TS%, yea... He's shooting 19% from the field and 8% from 3pt with 13FGA attempts per game which is only 1FGA below his season average. ORTG of 70, DRTG of 120.

The fact that people even expect this to be a competitive series is all due to how good Westbrook is. Without him they probably would lose every game by 50, everyone on this roster has been awful outside of Robertson who's probably played two of the best offensive games of his career, scoring 18 and 12 points... just think about that.
"They have no perimeter talent outside of Westbrook and its showing."
Uh, Oladipo and McDermott are both far better three ball shooters than WB.


Oladipo is shooting 9% in the playoffs so far on 6 attempts per game.

McDermott is a slightly above average shooter but might be the 2nd worst defensive player on the team.
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#59 » by RCM88x » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:52 pm

Patches Perry wrote:
Coxy wrote:I think with a PG like George Hill, they'd be better than current.


PG- George Hill
SG- Victor Oladipo
SF- Andre Roberson
PF- Taj Gibson
C - Steven Adams

Bench- Enes Kanter
Bench- Semaj Christon
Bench- Domantas Sabonis
Bench- Doug McDermott
Bench- Jerami Grant

50 win team?


Are people delusional?

George Hill? A good player, but not capable of carrying a team to the playoffs or even 35 wins... where the heck are people getting this BS from?
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Re: Would OKC win more games with a different point guard? 

Post#60 » by Coxy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:56 pm

Patches Perry wrote:
Coxy wrote:I think with a PG like George Hill, they'd be better than current.


PG- George Hill
SG- Victor Oladipo
SF- Andre Roberson
PF- Taj Gibson
C - Steven Adams

Bench- Enes Kanter
Bench- Semaj Christon
Bench- Domantas Sabonis
Bench- Doug McDermott
Bench- Jerami Grant

50 win team?


Yeah possibly. The talent gets utilized better at the very least, which I think would help develop the team aspect more, and get players more engaged and motivated to win, rather than help 1 player to do,it all. Hill is a really good defender, and an underrated scorer and leader. Can't stress enough what bringing in a high character guy like Hill would do, and removing the arrogant ego of Westbrook would do for that group. I'm huge on chemistry, and I don't think RW is very good for it.
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