Kyrie Irving

[mudsak]

Kevin Love was 2nd team all NBA before he came to Cleveland. While his numbers are down as 3rd option, he's improved as a player since he arrived.

And why are you talking about the Kyrie Irving team with Anthony Bennet? Kyrie Irving is absolutely a better player than he was 4 years ago.

Do you think Love would still be 2nd, or even 3rd team all-nba anywhere else in the league right now? I highly doubt it. Again... many of his improvements as a player are due to playing alongside the massive impact of Lebron. Love's usage is down, but his efficiency is up, while also having a much easier job on defense than ever before.

The Kyrie points... I'll give you that... Kyrie didn't have a lot to work with, and he is a better player now. But to argue he's top 10 player in the league if he didn't play with Lebron is ridiculous. I'm a fan of Kyrie. He's easily one of the most entertaining players to watch in the NBA. He's an extremely unique player in the NBA. But here's the thing... Kyrie playing alongside Lebron is the ultimate best case scenario for Kyrie. We're getting to see the best Kyrie possible because he plays next to Lebron. For someone to argue he'd be so much better in a different situation is ridiculous. Can someone name a roster that gives Kyrie a better situation to shine??? I doubt it.
Kyrie is a top 20 player in the NBA. Truth be told he's probably slightly overrated in some situations, but that can't take away from the fact that he's still a phenomenal talent. He'll never be in the conversation as best PG in the NBA, and it would be almost impossible to even count him in the top 5 best PG's in the league. If it's that challenging to argue for him as a top 5 PG... how is anyone going to argue for him as a top 10 player?

[LilLeeroy]

Kyrie is amazing and is one of the best pgs in the league. They guy is a fearless closer and lethal from 3-point range. He's up there with Curry, but not as good of a passer. I would put him above Damien Lillard, John Wall, Isaiah Thomas, etc. In fact, the only pgs I would place ahead of him are Westbrook, Curry (only slightly), and CP-3( but I think Kyrie fits better w/ Lebron).

Also not even close to as good as a scorer, as an inferior defender. So no not up there in any way.

Kyrie is improving though. He posted a positive RPM for the first time in his career this year so after 6 years in the NBA his team was finally better with him on the court than on the bench, so who knows in 15-20 years at this rate of improvement he could be up there with Curry.

[Jazz9]

I honestly feel that both Kyrie and Kevin Love have become two of the most underrated players in the NBA today. Having the best player in the league on your team will obviously over shadow them but they are both so under appreciated.

Neither of them are underrated. They get no criticism or scrutiny at all when they don't play well. The Cavs are 4-12 with just Kyrie and Love and no LeBron, but you never hear about that. But when they do play well, LeBron haters go wild proclaiming that they're "carrying LeBron" and "LeBron has too much help." If you're an all-star or better, there's no downside to being LeBron's teammate. You get no expectations and only praise.

It's always the same...
Who cares if Kyrie only shot 41.9% and 37.5% against Indiana and Toronto?
He had a better game than LeBron last night and that's all that matters
He's the true alpha, the Batman to LeBron's Robin, LeBron's overrated and playing on a stacked team etc

[MartinToVaught]

I honestly feel that both Kyrie and Kevin Love have become two of the most underrated players in the NBA today. Having the best player in the league on your team will obviously over shadow them but they are both so under appreciated.

Neither of them are underrated. They get no criticism or scrutiny at all when they don't play well. The Cavs are 4-12 with just Kyrie and Love and no LeBron, but you never hear about that. But when they do play well, LeBron haters go wild proclaiming that they're "carrying LeBron" and "LeBron has too much help." If you're an all-star or better, there's no downside to being LeBron's teammate. You get no expectations and only praise.

It's always the same...
Who cares if Kyrie only shot 41.9% and 37.5% against Indiana and Toronto?
He had a better game than LeBron last night and that's all that matters
He's the true alpha, the Batman to LeBron's Robin, LeBron's overrated and playing on a stacked team etc

It was the same thing with Wade and Bosh. We had to hear all the outrage over LeBron joining a stacked team, etc., and then four years went by with both of them getting all the credit for wins and none of the blame for losses.

[SAKURABA216]

This again?

Irving and Love would be considered Top 10 in the league if they played elsewhere.

Irving is a star and a big clutch player. Love is basically a double-double machine that now improved his defense too. He could easily average 25/13 if he got the touches he got in Minnesota...

Irving showed time and time again he can compete with Steph Curry at the PG position

Haha...Really?... Top 10? That's a serious reach. Make a top 10 list to see who gets snubbed to squeeze either of these guys into it...

Where did Love ever lead the Wolves?...they never even made the playoffs.

Kyrie... Where was Cleveland when Kyrie was the #1 option on the team????...in the lottery.

I'm not trying to say that Love/Kyrie aren't great players. They are both phenomenal players. I'd say it's fair to rate Kyrie in the top 20, and Love might be top 30, but to claim they are both top 10 players in this league is ridiculous. Truth be told... you if replaced Lebron with an average SF, and the Cavs with Kyrie AND Love are an 8th seed AT BEST. Furthermore... Kyrie has the opportunity to flourish alongside Lebron. Love's usage rate is obviously down, but his open looks are better than he's ever going to get as a #1 option, and his defense has improved because Lebron has an impact to make defense easier for Love.

Kyrie is likely somewhere between #15 - #20...but closer to #20

Love... he's never gonna sniff top 20 let alone top 10.

https://www.si.com/nba/2014/top-100-nba-players-2015-list

SI had Kevin Love as the #7 best player

[blazeyo]

Kyrie is as skilled as anybody I have ever seen. His potential was through the roof and he basically stayed the same skill wise since his rookie season. Yes, his numbers went up but his impact, understanding of the game, passing and making the correct play never did.

Is there any doubt in your minds that Kyrie would have been a consensus top 3 PG in the league had he been drafted by a competent organization, say Spurs?

He was also derailed by injuried that limited his growth as a player.

You watch him play and when he is on, he looks like the most skillful player in the league. The fact that he is considered up there with IT, Lowry, Conley and less skillful PGs that play the "right" way tells me how much of a wasted talent he is.

His scroing prowess is never used to make other players better, it's only used to score buckets. He doesn't create any opportunities for his teammates and he doesn't have tons of gravity. Currt otoh uses his scoring threat as a way to create offense for others and himself and the GSW "system" was created because of Curry's gravity.

To sum it up.. Kyrie is one of the best scorers in the game, when his shots fall he looks god like and when they don't he fails to impact the game in other ways. His ceiling was much higher but he is what he is at this point.

[RSCD3_]

really subpar athleticism in NBA standard, yet one of the best guards who penetrate the line and finish around the rim... why is that

Really subpar is a big stretch, he has a good first step combined with his great handling, he just cant jump that high at all, but his finishing is so good he doesnt need to

Sent from my SM-T550 using RealGM mobile app

[mudsak]

This again?

Irving and Love would be considered Top 10 in the league if they played elsewhere.

Irving is a star and a big clutch player. Love is basically a double-double machine that now improved his defense too. He could easily average 25/13 if he got the touches he got in Minnesota...

Irving showed time and time again he can compete with Steph Curry at the PG position

Haha...Really?... Top 10? That's a serious reach. Make a top 10 list to see who gets snubbed to squeeze either of these guys into it...

Where did Love ever lead the Wolves?...they never even made the playoffs.

Kyrie... Where was Cleveland when Kyrie was the #1 option on the team????...in the lottery.

I'm not trying to say that Love/Kyrie aren't great players. They are both phenomenal players. I'd say it's fair to rate Kyrie in the top 20, and Love might be top 30, but to claim they are both top 10 players in this league is ridiculous. Truth be told... you if replaced Lebron with an average SF, and the Cavs with Kyrie AND Love are an 8th seed AT BEST. Furthermore... Kyrie has the opportunity to flourish alongside Lebron. Love's usage rate is obviously down, but his open looks are better than he's ever going to get as a #1 option, and his defense has improved because Lebron has an impact to make defense easier for Love.

Kyrie is likely somewhere between #15 - #20...but closer to #20

Love... he's never gonna sniff top 20 let alone top 10.

https://www.si.com/nba/2014/top-100-nba-players-2015-list

SI had Kevin Love as the #7 best player

That list would have been questionable/debatable back in 2015. But we're not talking about 2015... we're talking about 2017/18 and onward. In which case that list isn't just questionable...it's completely irrelevant. 5 years ago Dwight Howard was the best Center in the NBA, and a top 10 player, but that doesn't mean he's a top 10 player now. Is this link you provided to an opinion-based article from 2 seasons ago the basis for debating that Love is a top 10 player today?... because it's not a very convincing debate.

[SAKURABA216]

Haha...Really?... Top 10? That's a serious reach. Make a top 10 list to see who gets snubbed to squeeze either of these guys into it...

Where did Love ever lead the Wolves?...they never even made the playoffs.

Kyrie... Where was Cleveland when Kyrie was the #1 option on the team????...in the lottery.

I'm not trying to say that Love/Kyrie aren't great players. They are both phenomenal players. I'd say it's fair to rate Kyrie in the top 20, and Love might be top 30, but to claim they are both top 10 players in this league is ridiculous. Truth be told... you if replaced Lebron with an average SF, and the Cavs with Kyrie AND Love are an 8th seed AT BEST. Furthermore... Kyrie has the opportunity to flourish alongside Lebron. Love's usage rate is obviously down, but his open looks are better than he's ever going to get as a #1 option, and his defense has improved because Lebron has an impact to make defense easier for Love.

Kyrie is likely somewhere between #15 - #20...but closer to #20

Love... he's never gonna sniff top 20 let alone top 10.

https://www.si.com/nba/2014/top-100-nba-players-2015-list

SI had Kevin Love as the #7 best player

That list would have been questionable/debatable back in 2015. But we're not talking about 2015... we're talking about 2017/18 and onward. In which case that list isn't just questionable...it's completely irrelevant. 5 years ago Dwight Howard was the best Center in the NBA, and a top 10 player, but that doesn't mean he's a top 10 player now. Is this link you provided to an opinion-based article from 2 seasons ago the basis for debating that Love is a top 10 player today?... because it's not a very convincing debate.

Dude, you're post asks: "Where did Love ever lead the Wolves?...they never even made the playoffs" in order to prove your point that Love wasn't even a top 10 player before he joined the Cavs and SI had him ranked at #7 the summer before he went to Cleveland.

[osucavs33]

I honestly feel that both Kyrie and Kevin Love have become two of the most underrated players in the NBA today. Having the best player in the league on your team will obviously over shadow them but they are both so under appreciated.

Neither of them are underrated. They get no criticism or scrutiny at all when they don't play well. The Cavs are 4-12 with just Kyrie and Love and no LeBron, but you never hear about that. But when they do play well, LeBron haters go wild proclaiming that they're "carrying LeBron" and "LeBron has too much help." If you're an all-star or better, there's no downside to being LeBron's teammate. You get no expectations and only praise.

I've always hated the "Cavs are 4-12", or "the Cavs have a losing record without LeBron" argument against players like Kyrie and Love. The Cavs are built to be the perfect fit around LeBron James. They aren't built to be a great team without him. Teams like Golden State or the later Duncan years San Antonio were built as an all around team. They may have stars but you can plug and play and it isn't focused on one singular player. The Cavs got LeBron back and thought "how do we build a team to maximize what LeBron does". So of course they won't be as good when he doesn't play. Even though the Cavs have stars like Kyrie and Love the roster isn't constructed to fit what those two do best, it is constructed to compliment what LeBron does. It may not be the ideal way to build a team, but it is what it is.

[INKtastic]

The same faulty issue comes up every time Kyrie is discussed. People want to compare him to other PGs in he league as a PG. LeBron, the best PG in the league, is the Cavs PG.

Rate Kyrie as a guard, not as a PG. he's the best guard in the east. He has the same role on the Cavs as Wade had on the heat. And this year he averaged more assists a game than any teammate LeBron has ever had in a season where LeBron averaged the most assists of his own Career. He also averaged more points than Wade did in 3 of the 4 years LeBron was in Miami.

[Mind_Odyssey]

If Kyrie continues his trajectory path for the next 7 years, he's a HOF lock to me. He's already had his hall of fame moment in the NBA Finals.

[Illmatic12]

The same faulty issue comes up every time Kyrie is discussed. People want to compare him to other PGs in he league as a PG. LeBron, the best PG in the league, is the Cavs PG.

Rate Kyrie as a guard, not as a PG. he's the best guard in the east. He has the same role on the Cavs as Wade had on the heat. And this year he averaged more assists a game than any teammate LeBron has ever had in a season where LeBron averaged the most assists of his own Career. He also averaged more points than Wade did in 3 of the 4 years LeBron was in Miami.

Best guard in the East? Ehh I disagree, he's not better than Wall or Butler (call him an SF if you want) .

Doesn't matter what position you classify Kyrie, he's still a great scorer but he doesn't have the same overall impact as top ~10 caliber players.

[LivingLegend]

I honestly feel that both Kyrie and Kevin Love have become two of the most underrated players in the NBA today. Having the best player in the league on your team will obviously over shadow them but they are both so under appreciated.

Its funny because here on RealGM GB, people use the whole 'LeBron is stacked with talent and needs a superteam to win' to try and degrade any accomplishments he has.

Then, they will turn right around and say Kyrie is no better than Kemba Walker and Al Horford is better than Love citing neither is a top 20 player in the NBA.

Its all about agendas.

[JonFromVA]

Kyrie's performance in the 2nd period of Game 4 while LeBron sat was like a microcosm of his career.

When the kid gets hot, he's amazing, and there's no doubt he carried the offense in the quarter.

But...

While he was doing his thing over the final 6:46, his teammates only scored 2 points; and while yes, he kept the Cavs in the game over the stretch, the Cavs were technically speaking +0.

When a star players is going nuts, his team should be building a lead, not just holding it. With LeBron in the game in the 3rd quarter, that's exactly what started happening. The defense picked up and more players were involved in the offense even though Kyrie was scoring even more.

I hope the Cavs can find a way to keep Deron Williams. I'd love to see Kyrie continue to learn from him, and to learn to play with him.

[LakersLegacy]

Teams can't double LeBron in part because of Kyrie. Kyrie does not get enough recognition from fans despite dropping 40 in the Finals, hitting daggers, all-star game MVP, Team USA MVP. Kyrie is the reason LeBron went back to the land. He deserves some props. How many times does Kyrie have to drop the mic?

[LivingLegend]

This again?

Irving and Love would be considered Top 10 in the league if they played elsewhere.

Irving is a star and a big clutch player. Love is basically a double-double machine that now improved his defense too. He could easily average 25/13 if he got the touches he got in Minnesota...

Irving showed time and time again he can compete with Steph Curry at the PG position

How do you figure? Love barely averaged 26/13 the year before he got on the Cavs.

Because his 3pt shot has improved dramatically since he was in Minny and he has far more reliable range to his game. Love is only 6pts and 2 rebounds a game shy in Cleveland of his best Minnisota years as the 3rd option on a team. He is better now than he was in Minny (shooting, defense) and in his prime--its just sort of overshadowed by being 3rd fiddle.

Hell, even Kyries talent, rankings or whatever get overlooked anymore because hes 2nd in line now. Back when he was the #1 option and getting all of the exposure in the world people viewed him as a better player. Now that hes 2nd option---people nitpick him to death.

[LivingLegend]

Teams can't double LeBron in part because of Kyrie. Kyrie does not get enough recognition from fans despite dropping 40 in the Finals, hitting daggers, all-star game MVP, Team USA MVP. Kyrie is the reason LeBron went back to the land. He deserves some props. How many times does Kyrie have to drop the mic?

On RealGM. About 28 more times-- then he might be better than decompressed Kyle Lowry. Maybe..

[BayArea408415]

Kyrie Irving all time playoff rankings:

Win Share/48 - #8 all time (everyone else in the top 28 are either in the Hall of Fame already or will be when they are eligible)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

PER - #19 all time (right between Magic and Wilt)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

Offensive Rating - #20 all time
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career_p.html

PPG - #27 all time
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

I wasn't comparing all-time rankings. Just this season and the playoffs. You compared their regular season numbers from 2016-17 to make a point and I pointed out some relevant data you didn't include such as the shots attempted. Then, I went along and moved onto the playoffs numbers between the two this year. Curry has blown Irving out of the way in pretty much every statistical category in these year's playoffs even with his 42 point outburst yesterday.

However, if you want to look at all-time numbers, Curry's playoff PER of 28 this year is far beyond Irving's career playoff PER of 22.79 and Curry's career playoff PER 23.14 is still higher than Irving's despite missing 6/10 games last year in the 1st two rounds and having an inconsistent playoffs. I recognize that Irving had his own injuries the year prior in 2015.


Curry's all time playoff rankings:

Win Share/48 - #11 all-time

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2017_leaders.html

Curry is at 0.287 this year. That should help him break the top 10 and surpass Irving if he continues at that rate. Especially, since Irving isn't even top 10 in this year's playoffs.

PER - #14 all time (ahead of Magic, Wilt, West, Robinson, KAJ, etc.)

If he continues at his current pace (28) this year, Curry will likely reach the top 10 all time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2017_leaders.html

Offensive Rating - #41 all-time

The numbers for this category have to be heavily skewed toward certain numbers (FG%?) since guys like Horace Grant and Tyson Chandler are top 5 of all-time. Even guys like Maxwell and Porter are top 10 ahead of the likes of Jordan, Barkley, Nowitzki, etc. Still, Irving has Curry beat. Granted, Magic and Kawhi are top 5 too but still...

Even this year, guys like TT, McGee and Robin Lopez are all top 5.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2017_leaders.html

PPG - #8 all-time

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html

Also, Curry has been putting his numbers up as the no. 1 option (even with Durant here) while Irving's playoff success has been at the helm of being LeBron's sidekick for the most part. If Curry was playing alongside LeBron, it's safe to say his numbers and efficiency would likely benefit greatly. Especially, since he's proven that he can maintain or even improve some of his averages (like scoring) despite playing alongside Durant.

[INKtastic]

Teams can't double LeBron in part because of Kyrie. Kyrie does not get enough recognition from fans despite dropping 40 in the Finals, hitting daggers, all-star game MVP, Team USA MVP. Kyrie is the reason LeBron went back to the land. He deserves some props. How many times does Kyrie have to drop the mic?

Last night Boston started doubling Kyrie while LeBron was on the court.