Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...2017 Finals 30ppg, 48%FG, 5 Assists

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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#181 » by richboy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:17 pm

homecourtloss wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:
richboy wrote:Kyrie in GS motion offense would be a MVP candidate level player.



In all of the multiverse that exists, there is not a single universe within in it in which Kyrie could be a 31+ PER, .300 WS48 player like Curry was in the 2015-16 regular season.

Kyrie isn't capable of that, and probably never will be. No matter what system you put him in, who the coach is, who his teamates are, anything.

Kyrie is great at what he does. And he is slowly starting to expand his game. But he can only do what he does. That's the only way he can play, at least at this point in his career.


Great way to put it. I would venture to say that very few players ever will be able to do what Curry did in 2016. And that PER was at 32+ until the last 5-6 games brought him down and that ws/48 was near .330 which is downright absurd.

If Kyrie is ever a ws/48 of say .220 or better and LeBron can play at 90% of what he is now, they can compete for titles I tot the future. I don't see Irving even being a ws/48 of .220 guy, though.


It doesn't matter. Like I said in my statement. Curry couldn't have a season like that again. Kyrie is very capable of having or surpassing the 2 other Curry and Kerr seasons. Can I make a case that Kyrie could have the greatest offensive season of all time by some. That would be crazy to go to that degree. I can say Kyrie could be as good as Curry his first MVP year and this last year. Much better than Curry in last years playoffs.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#182 » by OrlandoNed » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:31 pm

Kyrie is an extremely potent scorer but not much else. Having Lebron on his team taking the primary role as playmaker means Irving doesn't have to worry about anything other than putting the ball through the net. If Irving didn't have Lebron on his team and he was the best player on said team, they'd be a low seed that can't get into the 2nd round.

Lebron is the only reason Irving is in the position to put on a scoring exhibition in the Finals.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#183 » by Louie_Ruckuz » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:33 pm

All I see is, "Lebron, Lebron, Lebron"

Kyrie is one bad dude, why so much hate on the guy?
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#184 » by NBAFan93 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:46 pm

If he can repeat that game three more times and help them win this series - yeah - he's definitely top 5.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#185 » by improper » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:41 pm

Baski wrote:Where was this thread when he was playing like ass against the Pacers and Raptors?


I for one can't imagine why people would consider a player's Finals performance more important that their performance in two early round sweeps.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#186 » by LivingLegend » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:46 pm

GrandTheftRondo wrote:
Lakerfan17 wrote:If Kyrie wasn't playing with LeBron on a contender he'd be called the same thing Marbury and Francis were, a talented ballhog who can't make his teammates better.

That's not to take away from his 1 on 1 scoring skills but it is what it is..

Exactly. LeBron's gravity is what allows Kyrie the opportunities to go 1 on 1.

Kyrie is a talented 1 on 1 scorer. He does nothing else at a high level.

Take LeBron out of this series and things look real nasty for the Cavs offence.


Well, so is James Harden and people think hes a top 4 player in the NBA.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#187 » by Team LeBron » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:47 pm

RingsDontLie wrote:The guy is so dominant at times that he makes LBJ look like the 2nd best player on his team. This is why I always thought the Cavs had a chance and never discounted them completely. When Kyrie starts going goat level in the playoffs, it changes everything. When Kyrie explodes he is a greater force than Curry.

I feel Kyrie has surpassed CP3 and he's tugging on Steph's shorts as we speak.

Kyrie is having a better finals than Curry. Kyrie had a better finals than Curry last season as well.

Honestly, if I got to choose which player I want in a finals situation, it's actually a tough choice between Curry or Kyrie.

So I'm not even sure Kyrie isn't better than Curry right now. And Kyrie's offense has to be killing and tiring Thompson or Curry out, that it's affecting them on the offensive end. So by him being aggressive, he's taking out the splash brothers legs in the process on the offensive end.



There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#188 » by INKtastic » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:54 pm

Team LeBron wrote:There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Kyrie is a 2 guard.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#189 » by Team LeBron » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:57 pm

INKtastic wrote:
Team LeBron wrote:There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Kyrie is a 2 guard.


Yeah, a 2 guard in a point guards body.
He can only thrive having the GOAT alongside to mask his deficiencies.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#190 » by The_Hater » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:01 pm

Top 5 PG discussion? Maybe.

Kyrie has a very appealing style but I hope that nobody who has spent a lot of time criticizing Melo for his obvious short comings is ignoring those same issues with Kyrie. They're both gifted, professional scorers with terrible all around games.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#191 » by LivingLegend » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:04 pm

INKtastic wrote:
Team LeBron wrote:There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Kyrie is a 2 guard.


As soon as some realize that Kyries only role on this team is to be a scorer, the better off we will be. He is fully capable of passing, hence the 4 games in a row with 10+ assists earlier this year and the reason he was considered as a CP3 comparison coming out of HS and Duke. He could pass.

His role every since he got to CLE was score because when he was 19-21 years old, the Cavs didnt have a #1 scoring option. So Mike Brown told him to be the guy on offense because of his volume scoring ability. Then, when LBJ came back--his perfect role was to be a primary scorer since LBJ's main attribute is point forward. LeBron is the facillitator and Kyrie, again, was asked to be a scoring machine and take the majority of the load off LeBron with his age/mins played. Thats the best way he could impact the team.

His role is to always score so it frees up LeBron to do all of the other things he is good at and not just have to worry about being the primary scoring option every night to win. He is not asked to get 10+ assists a night because thats not his role even though when he shifts into a facilitators role, he can obviously do it. However, in the Playoffs when your facing GS, you need to score as much as humanly possible to keep pace. Kyrie is not looking to distribute, nor should he. Yet gets knocked for it.

He is asked to be a elite scoring 2 guard. He just happens to be in a PGs body. Its literally the same role Harden had before joining the Rockets. Score in bunches from the perimeter and dont worry about much else because KD/Westbrook are there. Kyrie, score in bunches from the perimiter and dont worry about much else because LeBron/Love are there.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#192 » by The_Hater » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:08 pm

INKtastic wrote:
Team LeBron wrote:There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Kyrie is a 2 guard.


I agree. But the problem remains, what position does he guard on the other side?
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#193 » by improper » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:09 pm

The_Hater wrote:
INKtastic wrote:
Team LeBron wrote:There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Kyrie is a 2 guard.


I agree. But the problem remains, what position does he guard on the other side?


Couldn't you ask the same question about a guy like Curry? Curry gets to defend the other team's worst perimeter player literally every game and basically never has to guard other point guards.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#194 » by LivingLegend » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:10 pm

The_Hater wrote:
INKtastic wrote:
Team LeBron wrote:There is no reasonable argument to be made for Kyrie Irving as a top 5 PG.
You would need a serious amount of mental gymnastics to get him there.
As far as the top 5 overall , I mean just LOL :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Kyrie is a 2 guard.


I agree. But the problem remains, what position does he guard on the other side?


Depends on the talent of the other team. If they have a PG or SG that is not a all-star level scorer he guards them. Same thing that Curry does--take the weaker of the two guards on defense. Hence why Curry is guarding JR Smith the majority of the time and Klay/Green are rotating on Kyrie.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#195 » by The_Hater » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:15 pm

improper wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
INKtastic wrote:
Kyrie is a 2 guard.


I agree. But the problem remains, what position does he guard on the other side?


Couldn't you ask the same question about a guy like Curry? Curry gets to defend the other team's worst perimeter player literally every game and basically never has to guard other point guards.


You're right but it's because of the players he plays with, but he can defend PG's when asked. Curry is an average ball defender, Kyrie is not, and that's big part of the reason why the Cavs struggle to defend as a team.

None of this takes away from his fantastic scoring ability but there are other skills that are important parts of the game.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#196 » by improper » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:19 pm

The_Hater wrote:You're right but it's because of the players he plays with, but he can defend PG's when asked. Curry is an average ball defender, Kyrie is not, and that's big part of the reason why the Cavs struggle to defend as a team.

None of this takes away from his fantastic scoring ability but there are other skills that are important parts of the game.


Curry is a terrible on-ball defender. That's why they never have him guard anyone that can dribble if they can avoid it. Curry gets his reputation for being an average defender because he's always guarding the other team's worst player and because he has elite defenders like Thompson and Green to cover for his mistakes, which allows him to gamble constantly.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#197 » by The_Hater » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:35 pm

improper wrote:
The_Hater wrote:You're right but it's because of the players he plays with, but he can defend PG's when asked. Curry is an average ball defender, Kyrie is not, and that's big part of the reason why the Cavs struggle to defend as a team.

None of this takes away from his fantastic scoring ability but there are other skills that are important parts of the game.


Curry is a terrible on-ball defender. That's why they never have him guard anyone that can dribble if they can avoid it. Curry gets his reputation for being an average defender because he's always guarding the other team's worst player and because he has elite defenders like Thompson and Green to cover for his mistakes, which allows him to gamble constantly.


Your repeating a narrative that was true about 4-5 years ago but not today. Curry guards the opoenents worst player because he plays with so many good defenders. Don't confuse being the worst defender in his lineup with being a poor defender. He's not. Irving on the other hand is terrible, even worse on the pick and roll and in transition.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#198 » by homecourtloss » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:01 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
GrandTheftRondo wrote:
Lakerfan17 wrote:If Kyrie wasn't playing with LeBron on a contender he'd be called the same thing Marbury and Francis were, a talented ballhog who can't make his teammates better.

That's not to take away from his 1 on 1 scoring skills but it is what it is..

Exactly. LeBron's gravity is what allows Kyrie the opportunities to go 1 on 1.

Kyrie is a talented 1 on 1 scorer. He does nothing else at a high level.

Take LeBron out of this series and things look real nasty for the Cavs offence.


Well, so is James Harden and people think hes a top 4 player in the NBA.


Harden creates offense for everyone else. Pick and roll, find open shooters or the roll man. Harden is an all time elite offense creator.
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Re: Kyrie needs to be in the top 5 player discussion...'17 Finals Game 4: 40 points, 55% FG 

Post#199 » by Baski » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:14 pm

improper wrote:
Baski wrote:Where was this thread when he was playing like ass against the Pacers and Raptors?


I for one can't imagine why people would consider a player's Finals performance more important that their performance in two early round sweeps.


So basically his poor play is excused even though his team won in spite of him? Yeah sounds legit. Top 5 players take blame for bad performances. If you want to make that case for him then don't junp to a series in which he has had one great game so far and ignore his piss poor games against worse teams, which for a real top 5 player, would ensure that he wouldn't even reach the finals on his own team.
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