Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot

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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#121 » by Pennebaker » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:16 am

IN OTHER WORDS... stars have to learn to be less selfish.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#122 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:20 am

It's very hard to hold anything against Popovich given the constant success in the last 20 years.
Horry's attitude and way to explain his point, if anything, shows why the Spurs are right for any long term result, imposing a team culture rather than handing the team to the players' personal ego. And to do it you need the right best players, like Duncan or Manu or Kawhi that are able to respect authority.

Players alone don't win championships, organizations do (at least long term success)
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#123 » by millslapper » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:27 am

"dumb down their game" yeah, Robert. This is a team sport. you have to know better.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#124 » by rebirthoftheM » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:40 am

Bob, although he is indeed a mercenary (which I 100% respect- should be loyal to yourself in the NBA climate. No one gives a damn about you anyways) touches upon a broader issue with Pop. Pop is like the supposed loving father who, if you accept his directives for your life, will shower you with everything great in this world, but will humiliate and degrade you if you try and do something different. This type of leadership style is perfect with demure personalities like Tim Duncan and David Robinson, but an absolute failure with dudes with big egos (aka most superstars/ATGs).

This is why I always valued PJ as a coach. He let his players do them, but still managed them appropriately so they didn't break away completely. When PJ joined the Bulls, MJ was as a bit lukewarm to the idea of the whole 'equal opportunity offense' premise of the triangle. But PJ let him know from the get go that he'd still be getting his shots. He'd just up the pace, and get the ball to MJ in areas where he didn't have to dribble around as much, leading to better efficiency and less stamina concerns. MJ ran with it, and the result was 6 titles. I can only imagine how Pop would have handled MJ's known desire to dominant games in terms of his individual production. Probably berate him for being selfish.

Or how about the malcontent Dennis Rodman, who could not be managed by the Spurs coaching staff and FO (which included Greg Popovich), culminating in Rodman refusing to help D-Rob out with Hakeem despite D-Rob pleading for his help. PJ allowed Rodman to be eccentric.. he gave him breathing room to be himself, but at the same time integrated him (via MJ and Pippen, who operated very much like PJ does with trouble personalities- PJ's approach influenced them majorly) in a way that made the team better. We heard very little drama about Rodman destroying team chemistry in Chicago, like we did in San Antonio. No coincidences there.

Or how PJ allowed Shaq to roam free in the RS, because he was absolutely confident that Shaq would deliver come PS. He didn't humiliate Shaq in front of live audiences because he very well knew this would backfire on his coaching. Givng Shaq the space to roam free in the RS allowed Shaq to best zone in the PS. I don't think we see 00-02 Shaq coming to the surface with Pop.

And then of course we have Kobe in PJ's last stint with the Lakers. PJ would often allow play to continue despite observing that Kobe was wilding out. His philosophy was- let him fix his own problems (alongside the occasional vague media messages he'd send), which perfectly suited Kobe's personality. I cannot imagine how Pop would have handled such situations but I doubt it would have been pretty. PJ was not perfect by any means, but he did a lot of things that made him far more suitable to coaching talented players with big egos (again the vast majority of dudes fall into this category).

Pop is a great coach. His track record is enough of a testament to this. But we need to seriously consider how his coaching style would fly with a whole lot of other great players. I for one do not believe his method would work with a number of other ATGs and superstars.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#125 » by HollowEarth » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:49 am

Horry's Last Two Years of Lakers Playoffs

Code: Select all

YEAR   ORTG   TS%     PTS/100 Possesions
2002   116    .576%   13
2003    85    .342%    9


Horry's First Two Years of Spurs Playoffs

Code: Select all

YEAR   ORTG   TS%     PTS/100 Possesions
2004   123    .620%   16
2005   127    .591%   19


Horry is mostly blaming the Spurs for him being old. Like yeah, you probably did play best for Coach Rudy; that's totally believable, but sometimes correlation isn't causation.

There were some interviews from his first playoffs with the Spurs where he talked about how he had pushed himself too hard his last years with the lakers. I remember him saying that he was so exhausted in the playoffs that he couldn't hear what people were saying to him and he'd just nod his head.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#126 » by Lakerfan17 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:21 am

Horrys no angel, remember him throwing the towel in ainges face in Phoenix? Probably wasn't easy going from phils sensei like style to popvichs drill sergeant.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#127 » by RedBulls23 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:43 pm

I don't know who's dumber...Horry for his moronic hot takes or Richard Jefferson thinking he was a star.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#128 » by BombsquadSammy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:44 pm

rebirthoftheM wrote:I can only imagine how Pop would have handled MJ's known desire to dominant games in terms of his individual production. Probably berate him for being selfish.


People here are forgetting that the reason Pop's offense transformed into an egalitarian pass-pass-pass system over the last several years is because his centerpiece player was reaching his NBA twilight and the Spurs were in danger of getting stuck in that no-man's-land of being a perennial 50-win team that couldn't truly contend; they needed to offset their lack of an in-prime superstar by emphasizing aspects of the game that didn't require a star player to consistently execute well. It's not like we weren't a traditional 'give it to the star' team for years when Duncan was in his absolute prime; if Pop had MJ, he would've recognized MJ's unique ability to turn games with his individual skill and the entire team would've been adjusted accordingly, just as it was adjusted when Pop didn't have such a player any longer.

Now, in terms of the other stuff (PJ giving big personalities wide berth vs. Pop requiring acquiescence to the 'culture'), I think you're right and I think PJ was the right guy for those situations. It's an interesting discussion: which one is the objectively healthier approach for leading a team? PJ was very successful doing it his way, but he also had some of the most unique and inimitable situations in league history in terms of talent level, and it's a valid question whether that approach would've worked in most other scenarios, where a coach had the big egos to wrangle with but not the sublime talent level to rely on.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#129 » by RedBulls23 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:47 pm

infintybeyond wrote:
Woodsanity wrote:Horry you aren't a star.

So he's not allowed to voice his opinion? Stars do struggle a bit in SA. The Spurs run a system that maximizes team play and sacrifices individual stats. They share the ball and play winning basketball. It's a tough adjustment for some stars to make, especially when they are used to playing individually then for the team.

I don't see Kawhi struggling much. Tim Duncan certainly didn't struggle. Ginobili, Parker...didn't struggle either.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#130 » by lobosloboslobos » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:57 pm

what he really means by 'dumb down' is 'sacrifice your ego for the betterment of the team'

it's no accident that the two most successful franchises in the past 15-20 years in both the NBA and NFL are run by guys who ask players to do just that

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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#131 » by RedBulls23 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:57 pm

lars_rosenberg wrote:So Duncan and Robinson who won the MVP with the Spurs had to dumb down their game?
Is Kawhi dumbing down his game? Great players do great things with Pop. Iso chuckers like Aldridge don't do well because they are just not good enough and Pop won't let you get your empty stats if they are not good for the team success.

Right. To add, Aldridge likes to chuck long two point jumpers. That's one of the dumbest shots you can take in today's NBA.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#132 » by RedBulls23 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:04 pm

Ballings7 wrote:
Good example. Was still playing at an all-star level before he came to the Spurs.

Here is the thing, RJ never played at an all-star level in his career...being that he actually never was an all-star. He was already on the decline too when he joined the Spurs.

All in all, he was a good player and starting quality wing, but nothing more.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#133 » by OdomFan » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:48 pm

RJ was just some dude Jason Kidd made look good.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#134 » by Knicks Byke » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:32 pm

i can't believe this is the guy they chose to be the new genie in aladdin smh.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#135 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:24 pm

1UPZ wrote:Nothing wrong with "dumbing down" your game if its the betterment of the team.

Its not one on one basketball, but 5 on 5... team.

What the Spurs have is repeatable and is systematic enough that as long as you can execute you have a role. Other teams rely on 1 or 2 stars to do everything and the role players just stand around hoping maybe they get the rebound or get an open lane if the defense doubles on the star player.. the Spurs beat you 5 on 5. Less burden on stars but more usage on everyone else.

Of course lately.. this has been toned down as Kawhi Leonard has been used more and more... but thats because Spurs are in transition and are missing the key role players they need. One... a healthy Parker... or a replacement.

Popovic has the Spurs highest winning percentage because of his way... and rings to show. So leave it at that.


Sure, there's in fact a ton right about Pop's methodology, but that doesn't mean it's perfect or that all of Pop's decisions were sound.

Being robotic can be brutally efficient, but it can also be completely predictable.

Being chaotic can be easily exploited, but it can also sometimes achieve the seeming impossible.

And then there's everything in between.

YMMV ... but personally I've always enjoyed the chaotic approach over the structured approach. The payoff winning that way for the participant is profound. Winning in a structured system seems more enjoyable for the coach or the person pushing the buttons.

otoh, just overwhelming your opposition with talent? Meh. That gets boring.

----

As for Robert Horry, his career trajectory went another direction, but early in his career there was thought he was developing in to a star. It's a common mistake made with athletic players who show some promise/ability on a contender. There are a lot more Horry's than Harden's.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#136 » by Joseph17 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:27 pm

I'm not going to say Horry is right, but I like it when people take shots and Pop. He seems like an arrogant, know it all prick. Horry has 7 rings and he has played for some of the best coaches of all-time so I obviously respect his opinion. I lost a lot of respect for him when he went on his rant about the election results. He sounded like a guy who is really out of touch with reality and no I'm not a Trump supporter. I didn't even vote for him. You can bash Trump all you want, but if you don't understand why he won over a person like Hillary of all people you're simply out of touch with reality.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#137 » by VinBaker6 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:33 pm

So RealGM posters have more credibility than Robert Horry when it comes to an issue like this? How is his opinion invalid but yours valid?
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#138 » by Yank3525 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 pm

xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:
Yank3525 wrote:
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:He is, but he really shouldn't be.


:lol:

Melo's resume is not that far off from Dominque Wilkins. Hell, Mitch Richmond is in the HOF, but somehow Melo shouldn't.

Nope.

Melo is the king of empty stats guys. He is a great scorer, but terrible at most every other aspect of basketball. There is a reason his teams don't win.

The WFC Nuggets team was because of Chauncy Billups, a proven leader and winner.


:lol:

They went to the WCF because of Melo and the west being weaker in 2009 then in 2008.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#139 » by Heat3 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:37 pm

Imagine that. Having to adjust to play in a system that everyone else on the team is playing.
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Re: Horry:"Stars Have to Dumb Down Their Game With The Spurs", Blames Pop for Fisher's '.4' shot 

Post#140 » by Heat3 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:44 pm

Joseph17 wrote:I'm not going to say Horry is right, but I like it when people take shots and Pop. He seems like an arrogant, know it all prick. Horry has 7 rings and he has played for some of the best coaches of all-time so I obviously respect his opinion. I lost a lot of respect for him when he went on his rant about the election results. He sounded like a guy who is really out of touch with reality and no I'm not a Trump supporter. I didn't even vote for him. You can bash Trump all you want, but if you don't understand why he won over a person like Hillary of all people you're simply out of touch with reality.


Trump won because 77,744 across 3 states voted for him instead of Hillary.
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