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SF_Warriors wrote:SOUL wrote:Effigy wrote:
Ok, but I think they should prioritize fixing one of the worst starting fives in the league first.
The starting 5 that ended the season were actually pretty good. Everything with Ibaka sucked.
The magic ended the season going 8-16, in what world is that good? Not to mention that before the all star weekend, they lost 5 of 6 games.
ORL_on_FIRE wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:SOUL wrote:
The starting 5 that ended the season were actually pretty good. Everything with Ibaka sucked.
The magic ended the season going 8-16, in what world is that good? Not to mention that before the all star weekend, they lost 5 of 6 games.
You aren't considering bench play..
SF_Warriors wrote:SOUL wrote:Effigy wrote:
Ok, but I think they should prioritize fixing one of the worst starting fives in the league first.
The starting 5 that ended the season were actually pretty good. Everything with Ibaka sucked.
The magic ended the season going 8-16, in what world is that good? Not to mention that before the all star weekend, they lost 5 of 6 games.
SOUL wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:SOUL wrote:
The starting 5 that ended the season were actually pretty good. Everything with Ibaka sucked.
The magic ended the season going 8-16, in what world is that good? Not to mention that before the all star weekend, they lost 5 of 6 games.
How does that refute anything I said? W-L shouldn't be a factor in how good a starting lineup plays, especially at that point when the front office isn't 100% committed to winning, and the fact that there's a bench that can negate whatever the starters do.
The final starting lineup (Payton/Ross/Fournier/Gordon/Vucevcic, (19 games) shot 48.2/39.6 (11 threes per game)/81.2 in 21 minutes on the floor together. That's a decent sample size and doesn't prove that "they should prioritize fixing one of the worst starting fives in the league". They were a net +1.4 together.
If that's referring to the Ibaka lineup starting five then it has been fixed a bit. I don't anticipate this being the final starting 5, but they've shown good chemistry after moving Gordon to the 4, Payton having the ball in his hands and the rest of them playing their roles.
In comparison, the Magic bench (Augustin/Watson/Meeks/Hezonja/Biyombo) shot 35/35/60 in 10 minutes per game, and another lineup with Jeff Green instead of Meeks they shot 37/27/81 with -7.7 and -3.9 totals.
SF_Warriors wrote:That five man lineup is absolutely garbage (Payton/Ross/Fournier/Gordon/Vucevcic)
Starters play the majority of the minutes. If they were any good, they would at least be closer to .500 to end the season even with a below average bench.
Yall act like bench play dictates winning in the nba by a significant amount..that is not true at all
SOUL wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:That five man lineup is absolutely garbage (Payton/Ross/Fournier/Gordon/Vucevcic)
Starters play the majority of the minutes. If they were any good, they would at least be closer to .500 to end the season even with a below average bench.
Yall act like bench play dictates winning in the nba by a significant amount..that is not true at all
I literally showed you facts that it's not garbage. But hey, that's your opinion. Maybe in the same way that Kyrie thinks that the Earth is flat, but that's up to you to choose to go against actual numbers.
Somebody said that starters were the problem and the worst in the league, there are stats that prove otherwise. I've even said that the starting lineups prior to the one that ended the season were largely ineffective and bad.
This final lineup played 21 minutes of 48 minute basketball together, and you're saying that "ya'll act like bench play dictates winning in the NBA?"
Uh, yes? Especially for a team like the Magic/Vogel not inserting the starting lineup for large stretches because he was probably told that winning wasn't the top priority when it came down to a certain point in the season.
Keep in mind you're arguing against a guy that literally watched every game from my team, and I want Fournier and Vucevic off of my team. I'm just refuting the narrative that the final starting lineup was "bad". It wasn't.
Shady Franchise wrote:jbk1234 wrote:I think the Magic should have save the cap space. It would've been more valuable. It's crazy to me that a team that won 29 games would use all its cap space on journeymen. When other teams want to get out of the luxury tax, and are willing to attach picks to do it, you're not an option.
Aren't Afflalo and Speights on 1 year deals? And Mack is only owed $1 mil next season if they decide to cut him. Simmons' deal is very tradeable. Not seeing how saved cap space does anything for a team that has stated they will spend this season evaluating their young players. Remember they have a new regime. They want to see what they have before jumping to conclusions, which is not crazy.
SF_Warriors wrote:ORL_on_FIRE wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:
The magic ended the season going 8-16, in what world is that good? Not to mention that before the all star weekend, they lost 5 of 6 games.
You aren't considering bench play..
So bench play is the reason why the magic had a .330 winning percentage in the last quarter of the season? The bench was horrible last season, but so was the starters. Payton is solid but he is more of an average point guard in today's nba. Gordon has not yet shown he can be a 20 & 10 type of player which is what all star caliber guys of his position would put up, and he may never will.
Vuc/Biyombo is a quality center rotation, but not when the leading scorer is evan fournier.
Having a quality bench means absolutely nothing with a below average starting unit.
That said, the magic drafting isaac and singing simmons are both really good moves that addressed a glaring hole at the wing position. One year deals for vets are not back breakers. There is reason for optimism but until there is a clear direction with the team or payton and gordon break out into all star caliber status, they will be a treadmill team for the forseeable future.
SF_Warriors wrote:.
Just because they played better near the end of the season does not mean that a future contender or even a perennial playoff team can come from that group.
ORL_on_FIRE wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:ORL_on_FIRE wrote:
You aren't considering bench play..
So bench play is the reason why the magic had a .330 winning percentage in the last quarter of the season? The bench was horrible last season, but so was the starters. Payton is solid but he is more of an average point guard in today's nba. Gordon has not yet shown he can be a 20 & 10 type of player which is what all star caliber guys of his position would put up, and he may never will.
Vuc/Biyombo is a quality center rotation, but not when the leading scorer is evan fournier.
Having a quality bench means absolutely nothing with a below average starting unit.
That said, the magic drafting isaac and singing simm2ons are both really good moves that addressed a glaring hole at the wing position. One year deals for vets are not back breakers. There is reason for optimism but until there is a clear direction with the team or payton and gordon break out into all star caliber status, they will be a treadmill team for the forseeable future.
So what you're saying is the facts and stats don't matter. Only thing that matters is your opinion.
SF_Warriors wrote:That group, I see mediocre playmaking (overall), average spacing at best, zero go to scorers, mediocre collection of defenders.. I am calling it as I see it, I do not just have blind hate for random franchises.
Just because they played better near the end of the season does not mean that a future contender or even a perennial playoff team can come from that group.
That said, depending on the development of isaac and gordon, and smart cap management (not overpaying for players), they can be a good team, but those two would have to develop into blue chip players.
OrlandoTill wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:.Just because they played better near the end of the season does not mean that a future contender or even a perennial playoff team can come from that group.
Who in the world is saying or arguing that? Can't we just be happy for an improved roster?
All the threads about potential good/great teams are not hijacked by Magic posters. If anything my sig proves no one is even thinking about our team.
SOUL wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:That group, I see mediocre playmaking (overall), average spacing at best, zero go to scorers, mediocre collection of defenders.. I am calling it as I see it, I do not just have blind hate for random franchises.
Just because they played better near the end of the season does not mean that a future contender or even a perennial playoff team can come from that group.
That said, depending on the development of isaac and gordon, and smart cap management (not overpaying for players), they can be a good team, but those two would have to develop into blue chip players.
I mean, you're presenting an argument that is straying from the original point I was answering.
The starting lineup that ended the season doesn't need immediate addressing, nor was it anything close to the worst in the league. It was a good starting lineup.
Should it be the starting lineup of the future? No. Is it going to take the Magic to great places? No. I'm not going to address anything else because I either agree with those points or it has nothing to do with what I was responding to in the first place.
Literally all I'm saying is that they were the single reason that the Magic had any hope toward next season besides a high draft pick. In fact, the play of that lineup might have influenced a lot of the moves made by the new front office this summer.
SF_Warriors wrote:OrlandoTill wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:.Just because they played better near the end of the season does not mean that a future contender or even a perennial playoff team can come from that group.
Who in the world is saying or arguing that? Can't we just be happy for an improved roster?
All the threads about potential good/great teams are not hijacked by Magic posters. If anything my sig proves no one is even thinking about our team.
My fault if i misconstrued the argument..but the starting lineup needs some tweaking. They are not the worst but that starting five is not good, even if they played better to end the season is what i am saying. Saying they are fine and faulting the bench for a lack of wins is not looking at the big picture
SF_Warriors wrote:OrlandoTill wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:.Just because they played better near the end of the season does not mean that a future contender or even a perennial playoff team can come from that group.
Who in the world is saying or arguing that? Can't we just be happy for an improved roster?
All the threads about potential good/great teams are not hijacked by Magic posters. If anything my sig proves no one is even thinking about our team.
My fault if i misconstrued the argument..but the starting lineup needs some tweaking. They are not the worst but that starting five is not good, even if they played better to end the season is what i am saying. Saying they are fine and faulting the bench for a lack of wins is not looking at the big picture
jbk1234 wrote:Shady Franchise wrote:jbk1234 wrote:I think the Magic should have save the cap space. It would've been more valuable. It's crazy to me that a team that won 29 games would use all its cap space on journeymen. When other teams want to get out of the luxury tax, and are willing to attach picks to do it, you're not an option.
Aren't Afflalo and Speights on 1 year deals? And Mack is only owed $1 mil next season if they decide to cut him. Simmons' deal is very tradeable. Not seeing how saved cap space does anything for a team that has stated they will spend this season evaluating their young players. Remember they have a new regime. They want to see what they have before jumping to conclusions, which is not crazy.
Which helps if another team wants to get out of a bad long-term contract but if they want to get out of the tax this year, getting an expiring contract back doesn't help them.
Uncommon wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:OrlandoTill wrote:
Who in the world is saying or arguing that? Can't we just be happy for an improved roster?
All the threads about potential good/great teams are not hijacked by Magic posters. If anything my sig proves no one is even thinking about our team.
My fault if i misconstrued the argument..but the starting lineup needs some tweaking. They are not the worst but that starting five is not good, even if they played better to end the season is what i am saying. Saying they are fine and faulting the bench for a lack of wins is not looking at the big picture
I think if you ask every Orlando Magic what they think of the starting lineup, most will admit that it needs to be improved. But in an earlier post you said that the starting lineup was absolute garbage, and that is just purely incorrect. After the All-Star break, the starting lineup improved tremendously. It was in fact, the bench that cost us countless games down the stretch. If you're asking the silly question, "why haven't the Magic improved the starting unit and added a superstar or 3?", well then -- with your team monopoly of stars -- I can't help you understand how much of a premium there is on those guys.
So if the starting lineup in its current iteration (sans Ibaka) was a plus, it only stands to reason that short of drafting a hopeful top player and undoubtedly attempting to acquire a star player and variably failing, the next logical thing to do is try to shore up a bench that was nearly historically bad and hope that the young players in the starting lineup continue to improve.
SF_Warriors wrote:Uncommon wrote:SF_Warriors wrote:
My fault if i misconstrued the argument..but the starting lineup needs some tweaking. They are not the worst but that starting five is not good, even if they played better to end the season is what i am saying. Saying they are fine and faulting the bench for a lack of wins is not looking at the big picture
I think if you ask every Orlando Magic what they think of the starting lineup, most will admit that it needs to be improved. But in an earlier post you said that the starting lineup was absolute garbage, and that is just purely incorrect. After the All-Star break, the starting lineup improved tremendously. It was in fact, the bench that cost us countless games down the stretch. If you're asking the silly question, "why haven't the Magic improved the starting unit and added a superstar or 3?", well then -- with your team monopoly of stars -- I can't help you understand how much of a premium there is on those guys.
So if the starting lineup in its current iteration (sans Ibaka) was a plus, it only stands to reason that short of drafting a hopeful top player and undoubtedly attempting to acquire a star player and variably failing, the next logical thing to do is try to shore up a bench that was nearly historically bad and hope that the young players in the starting lineup continue to improve.
I have since changed my description to definition of mediocre as pure garbage was a bit too much. I did not say it was going to be easy to build a contender, far from it. The magic have a long way to go in that respect. I did not say the moves they made this offseason were bad. I actually have high praise for what they have done (draft isaac, sign simmons, one year deals to vets).
I am just pointing out that bolstering the bench is nice, but in the end, the starting lineup will eventually need some turnover and will have to feature better players in order for them to be a perennial playoff team that can go deep into the playoffs. I am sure most magic fans realize this. Now, acquiring the player(s) that can help this team take the next step will be the biggest challenge.
I was mistaken when some fans said the starting lineup was fine and I thought they meant there does not need major changes at all. But they meant to say that there shouldnt be any immediate/shortsighted changes like the ones henigan made, which actually completely makes sense, especially when guys like gordon and payton still have room to improve and are in a contract year.
In your opinion, what is the next logical step towards playoff contention now that the bench is better?
