RealGM

I can understand putting Lebron ahead of either guy in your host rankings. Longevity matters, so does actual hardware.

But peak prime? Jokic is best player in league since Jordan. They are a tier above the next best “guys at their peak prime” (Lebron Giannis Shaq) and levels above the tier below that (Durant KG Steph).

I don’t even think it’s close. He controls the game like no one else since Jordan, whereas to me the guys the tier below never controlled every game, they were more akin to unstoppable freight trains that could take over a game. It’s the difference between these guys for me.

He's more skilled and his peak is similar but he's going to need a few more rings before we can even have this discussion

And he has a Pippen in Jamal Murray

I'm not sure jokic is better than 2009-2018 LeBron still. but he's def at that level. there's just a feeling of inevitability I haven't seen in a while. clearly better than Giannis and say, idk about LeBron, who would absolutely dominate today too.

FarBeyondDriven wrote:He's more skilled and his peak is similar but he's going to need a few more rings before we can even have this discussion

Pretty sure OP is talking about just skill alone and he is right...

Jokic is one of the goats...

Hope this thread doesnt get derailed by people going BUT RINGZZZ...

As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

Best peak ever

Shaq was so dominant. Peak Shaq is probably the best player in the NBA.

I really hope the suns can pull off the series against the wolves because it would be an honor to get rekt by jokic again.

Yep, definitively better or at least equal to Lebron

2011 with prime Wade they easily beat Dirk
2012 with still prime Wade they easily beat young Thunder
2013 is harder with a weaker Wade but then again you have Bosh and Ray Allen still, and prime Jokic gives Duncan fits so i think they win
2014 they lose because Wade isnt allstar anymore
2016 Jokic wins with prime Kyrie he would dominate Draymond
2020 they easily win too i mean Jokic + prime AD best twin towers of all time

So yea replace Lebron with Jokic on those teams they win +1 more championship

The most impressive thing is that he has reached a level that has a offchart basic standard in the playoffs and that even when the opposing team plays the perfect game and his teammates make everything wrong, he still single-handedly keeps the team within range of the opposing team... as soon as the other team gives up a bit and his teammates start to throw in, the game is over.

In a 7-game series this means a lot.

In Game2 against LA his teammates I've never seen panicated even below 20 at home.

Eagle4 wrote:As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

You do realize Shaq's career FG% is not 99.999% right? It's only at 58% for someone who would dunk on every play and score with ease.

FreeBird23 wrote:Shaq was so dominant. Peak Shaq is probably the best player in the NBA.

Yes I agree, Shaq got somehow forgotten by OP, if we just talking skill, talent, ability, and not overall career achievements, which of course, Shaq has those as well. But Shaq is up there when it comes to peak dominance. Man was on another level.

I remember Bill and Lowe were discussing something few years ago, and they touched on Shaq's Heat trade, and Bill pretty nonchalant says - when you trade for that Shaq, even olded Shaq, he still pretty much guarantees you at least one trip to the finals still. -

Not sure that take is true. I mean, Shaq went to finals and won finals with the Heat, but was it guarantee I am not sure. But either way, how nany players in the last 40 years can even grant such claim to begin with? Certainly LeBron in my opinion. Does Jokic guarantee a trip to the finals, or can you at least see Bill or someone say such a thing?

SlovenianDragon wrote:

FarBeyondDriven wrote:He's more skilled and his peak is similar but he's going to need a few more rings before we can even have this discussion

Pretty sure OP is talking about just skill alone and he is right...

Jokic is one of the goats...

Hope this thread doesnt get derailed by people going BUT RINGZZZ...

That's all that matters, you do know that right?

Not quite LeBron 8 consecutive trips to the finals ish but he’s heading there if they beat LA and make the finals again

Eagle4 wrote:As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

5 years peak LA Shaq from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.764

Last 5 season Jokic from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.757

mcmurphy wrote:

Eagle4 wrote:As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

5 years peak LA Shaq from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.764

Last 5 season Jokic from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.757

I consider 1 singular year to be one's peak and multiple years to be one's prime. So do '00 Shaq specifically and then do Jokic's best year and THEN report back.

hugolizard wrote:

Eagle4 wrote:As good as he is I still take peak Shaq but not mad at that ranking.

Edit: Went to check to see how many 20pt losses Shaq had in his '00 year and he had 1. In that game he was 13-17 and had 30pts lol. One could argue that in this current NBA, that Shaq just wouldn't allow his team to ever be down such a margin. He was that unguardable.

Jokic is extremely efficient but dunks are 99.999%. If you denied Shaq deep positioning one play, chances are he'd obtain it the very next play and score with ease. Some are either too young or forget just how dominant peak Shaq was. Forget the aesthetics and focus on pure dominance.

You do realize Shaq's career FG% is not 99.999% right? It's only at 58% for someone who would dunk on every play and score with ease.

Before going into a long tangent, first do you think Shaq's FG% would remain the same today, be worse or better?

UcanUwill wrote:

FreeBird23 wrote:Shaq was so dominant. Peak Shaq is probably the best player in the NBA.

Yes I agree, Shaq got somehow forgotten by OP, if we just talking skill, talent, ability, and not overall career achievements, which of course, Shaq has those as well. But Shaq is up there when it comes to peak dominance. Man was on another level.

I remember Bill and Lowe were discussing something few years ago, and they touched on Shaq's Heat trade, and Bill pretty nonchalant says - when you trade for that Shaq, even olded Shaq, he still pretty much guarantees you at least one trip to the finals still. -

Not sure that take is true. I mean, Shaq went to finals and won finals with the Heat, but was it guarantee I am not sure. But either way, how nany players in the last 40 years can even grant such claim to begin with? Certainly LeBron in my opinion. Does Jokic guarantee a trip to the finals, or can you at least see Bill or someone say such a thing?

The thing is, people just think that Shaq was a fat dude dunking on people.
He was an athlete even at 385lbs and his footwork was elite. Also, his passing skill was great for a guy who was often double/triple teamed and able to find the open man

UcanUwill wrote:

FreeBird23 wrote:Shaq was so dominant. Peak Shaq is probably the best player in the NBA.

Yes I agree, Shaq got somehow forgotten by OP, if we just talking skill, talent, ability, and not overall career achievements, which of course, Shaq has those as well. But Shaq is up there when it comes to peak dominance. Man was on another level.

I remember Bill and Lowe were discussing something few years ago, and they touched on Shaq's Heat trade, and Bill pretty nonchalant says - when you trade for that Shaq, even olded Shaq, he still pretty much guarantees you at least one trip to the finals still. -

Not sure that take is true. I mean, Shaq went to finals and won finals with the Heat, but was it guarantee I am not sure. But either way, how nany players in the last 40 years can even grant such claim to begin with? Certainly LeBron in my opinion. Does Jokic guarantee a trip to the finals, or can you at least see Bill or someone say such a thing?

The thing is, people just think that Shaq was a fat dude dunking on people.
He was an athlete even at 385lbs and his footwork was elite. Also, his passing skill was great for a guy who was often double/triple teamed and able to find the open man