Touch fouls for big men?

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Touch fouls for big men?

Yes
10
48%
No
11
52%
 
Total votes: 21

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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#41 » by No Offense » Sun Jan 3, 2010 3:17 am

In reality, if a fan of a team other than the Magic had made the statement:

"I don't know about everyone else, but it's frustrating to me how the league's big men, like Dwight Howard for example, get called for every ticky-tack foul against the league's wing players, but on the other end they have to get absolutely murdered before a foul will be called,"

you likely wouldn't have had any problem with that statement. The problem with the discrepancy of what constitutes a foul 25' from the basket and what's a foul 5' from it is a known and well-discussed problem. Jeff Van Gundy will tell you all about it, even if you don't want him to, even if you don't ask.


Stan Van Gundy lost all credibility to me when he made the two following statements:

“You won’t see that call again. That, I guarantee you,” Van Gundy said. “You will not see, with the game on the line, a 3-second call in the last 10 seconds. That’s part of the reason they’re 30-1 at home. They’re a very good team, and when you get calls like that (expletive), you’re in pretty good shape.”


The prior was made after a loss in Cleveland in mid-March.

The following was made by Tony Dileo in April after game 5 against the Magic:

“Dwight Howard had a great game, and he’s a great player, but he just lives in the 3-second lane on offense and defense,” DiLeo said. “I’m just saying he’s standing in the 3-second lane on offense and defense. He’s a great player, and he doesn’t need any advantages.


SVG's response:

“Am I supposed to come up here and talk about the game. Or am I supposed to come up here and lobby for the calls I want the next game?” Van Gundy said. “Is that what it’s about now? We’re supposed to lobby for the calls we want the next game? Let’s just play the games.

“I guess that’s the only reason Dwight’s having success in this series. It has nothing to do with the fact that he’s good.”


The game tonight is not over, but the Magic are taking most of their shots from beyond the 3 and still managed to shoot 1 more FT than Chicago who has only shot four 3's. Chicago is being aggressive and driving on offense and is not being rewarded for it by being sent to the line.

If Dwight Howard wants to be a tough defensive player, he will be put in a position where he is vulnerable to getting calls made against him. Additionally, you can't call every single touch foul on guys like Howard. It would make the game incredibly boring to watch.

I still maintain my opinion that the claims made by some Magic fans about the league being unfair to them are flawed. I dislike SVG because I feel like many times a fan base takes on the personality of the coach or team. In this case, you have a coach who screams bloody murder, is hypocritical and is either convinced that the league is unfair to his players or is doing just that which is complains about (lobbying for calls).
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#42 » by G35 » Sun Jan 3, 2010 4:08 am

The_Answer wrote:
No Offense wrote:According to http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stats/, Orlando is #1 in 3 pointers attempted in the league at 28.3. They are #1 with points from three pointers with 31.2 per game. They are dead last in points from two pointers with 50.4 per game. They are third in the league of free throws attempted with 28.0 per game and 8th in the league of points from free throws with 19.7 per game. Orlando gets called for the 4th least amount of personal fouls per game with 20.2. They also draw the 2nd most fouls per game with their opponents committing 23.5 per game.

This means that:

1. Orlando shoots a lot of threes
2. Orlando makes a lot of threes
3. Orlando doesn't shoot a lot of two point shots
4. Orlando shoots a lot of free throws
5. Orlando doesn't make a lot of free throws compared to how many they take
6. Orlando doesn't get called for a lot of personal fouls
7. Orlando's opponents get called for a lot of fouls.

Can we stop talking about the fake tragedy that is the the unfair treatment towards the Orlando Magic by the NBA and officiating crews? It's silliness.


Your analysis doesn't make sense. You can't string up a bunch of random stats and hope to make a correlation. Case and point, numbers 1,2,3, and 5 have nothing to do with the argument you're attempting to make.

Saying that the Magic get called for the 4th least amount of fouls per game of any team in the league doesn't really indicate anything given the fact that 5 fouls separate 1st from dead last, and 2.3 fouls separate 1st from 18th.

They draw the 2nd most fouls in the league because of one player, Dwight Howard, and even then, less than 2 fouls per game separate Orlando from #18, Dallas.
Wouldn't you think that there should be a greater gap between these teams given the fact that opponents employ Hack-a-Howard on a routine basis?

Anyway, this discussion really just deviates from the premise of the thread. The OP's not arguing that the Magic get the short end of the stick, he argues that Howard receives ticky tack calls compared to the league's perimeter players and essentially wanted to pose the question of whether or not Big men should be officiated differently due to their size.

I say, yes. Basketball's a more exciting game when two bigs slug it out as opposed to two perimeter players.



I'm not taking sides here but when you say 5 fouls separate first from last that's pretty huge. If one team is getting 5 more fouls a game they are at a significant disadvantage. Over the course of a season that's 410 more fouls. Even if just half of those are shooting fouls/in the penalty fouls that's 205 more FT's.

Just looking at todays completed games:

CLE-NJ: each committed 24 fouls Cavs win by 10 pts

CHA-MIA: MIA committed 5 more fouls and lost by 10 pts

SA-WAS: WAS committed 4 more fouls and lost by 11 pts

IND-MIN: MIN committed 8 less fouls and lost by 11 pts

TOR-BOS: TOR committed 6 more fouls and lost by 7 pts

HOU-NOR: HOU committed 4 more fouls and lost by 4 pts


4 of the teams that committed more fouls lost by an avg of 8 pts. I would say that IND won because they shot unusually well from outside shooting .400 for 3 ptrs.

The team that wins the fouls has a significant advantage....
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#43 » by Master Shake » Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:02 am

Big men are officiated differently than wing players in every league in every level. It's all about how something "appears" to a ref.

I played high school ball and in some competitive leagues. I'm only 6'4" but in a lot of places I've played that's big. If I even bump into a smaller guy, I'm likely getting called for the foul, but guys are allowed to climb my back for rebounds when I'm boxing out, grab and hold me all the time, and basically hack the hell out of me, but if I nudge somebody it's a foul because I'm big.

It really isn't fair, and this happens at an even larger scale in the NBA, it's (Please Use More Appropriate Word). I used to hate Shaq for constantly running over people, but there has to be a medium somewhere. Granted bigger guys are usually stronger and can hit people harder... but the touch fouls, bumps, and scrambling for rebound calls have to stop.

Just because your 6'10" and stronger than other players doesn't mean you can't get fouled. But I don't know how you'd fix the problem...

I'm extremely tired of watching smaller guards run into big men when their holding their ground, and getting called for a foul. As a defender, you are entitled a spot on the floor just like an offensive player, and if you get trucked... you'll be called for a foul. I HATE watching a big guy show hard on a screen with his feet set, and the guard runs into him, and its a foul on the big guy... just trash.
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#44 » by Guy986 » Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:26 am

If you call touch foul on big men, Yao would put up Prime Chamberlain type scoring numbers. 25 points on FT alone....
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#45 » by No Offense » Sun Jan 3, 2010 4:57 pm

Guy986 wrote:If you call touch foul on big men, Yao would put up Prime Chamberlain type scoring numbers. 25 points on FT alone....



WHY REF HATE YAO?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBe9SP2O0C0&feature=channel
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#46 » by rockybalboa11 » Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:48 pm

i find it pretty funny that anyone complains about dwight not getting calls

the guy is the only fairly officiated big man in the league on the offensive end

the only

wah he doesn't get as many calls as lebron wah

be thankful that the refs don't legitimately target him and try to get him out of the game as soon as possible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OtiNEEkHo0&NR=1
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#47 » by celticfan42487 » Sun Jan 3, 2010 5:59 pm

No Offense wrote:According to http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stats/, Orlando is #1 in 3 pointers attempted in the league at 28.3. They are #1 with points from three pointers with 31.2 per game. They are dead last in points from two pointers with 50.4 per game. They are third in the league of free throws attempted with 28.0 per game and 8th in the league of points from free throws with 19.7 per game. Orlando gets called for the 4th least amount of personal fouls per game with 20.2. They also draw the 2nd most fouls per game with their opponents committing 23.5 per game.

This means that:

1. Orlando shoots a lot of threes
2. Orlando makes a lot of threes
3. Orlando doesn't shoot a lot of two point shots
4. Orlando shoots a lot of free throws
5. Orlando doesn't make a lot of free throws compared to how many they take
6. Orlando doesn't get called for a lot of personal fouls
7. Orlando's opponents get called for a lot of fouls.

Can we stop talking about the fake tragedy that is the the unfair treatment towards the Orlando Magic by the NBA and officiating crews? It's silliness.


/thread
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#48 » by No Offense » Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:00 pm

rockybalboa11 wrote:i find it pretty funny that anyone complains about dwight not getting calls

the guy is the only fairly officiated big man in the league on the offensive end

the only

wah he doesn't get as many calls as lebron wah

be thankful that the refs don't legitimately target him and try to get him out of the game as soon as possible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OtiNEEkHo0&NR=1



I remember that game in your video. The Cavs' bigs were having big foul problems. There were also some very strange calls that went against LeBron in the 1st half. There was one call in particular where Artest drew an offensive foul on LeBron and it was clearly a bad call.

Look, I'm not here lobbying for calls for the Cavs. I'm here to say that there are bad calls in every game. It's called human nature and until we come up with a robot that can officiate NBA games, you'll have it.

Those videos that are on Youtube don't "prove" anything. They just show that there were possibly some bad calls made. The ironic thing is that most of the calls in those "clutchfans.net" videos aren't even bad. In the one that you linked, AV did flop but there was contact. It's not that the refs were calling it unfairly. What they did was called it consistently with the rules. Like it or not, flopping to exaggerate contact is part of NBA basketball.

Those announcers are the biggest homers not named "Tommy" or "Austin."
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#49 » by rockybalboa11 » Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:02 pm

yeah the only thing is that happens to yao four or five times a month

its a conspiracy without a doubt
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#50 » by mattg » Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:12 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:I don't mind big men not being called when they battle in the paint. It's when small guys run in and throw themselves into big guys that pisses me off. They know all they have to do is feint contact and the big man is going to the bench.

QFE. that kills me. Especially when you root for a team like the Bucks who are reliant as hell on Andrew Bogut and practically every game he gets called for 2 quick ones in the 1st while a guard jumps into his chest.
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#51 » by Gruel » Sun Jan 3, 2010 6:35 pm

Bargnani gets the stupidest phantom calls I've ever seen against a big. It's honestly unbelievable.
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#52 » by Smash3 » Sun Jan 3, 2010 8:21 pm

Gruel wrote:Bargnani gets the stupidest phantom calls I've ever seen against a big. It's honestly unbelievable.


Were actually talking about Bigs. Not Sg trapped in a Big body. The only time Bargnani visits the post is to check his mail.
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Re: Touch fouls for big men? 

Post#53 » by No Offense » Sun Jan 3, 2010 10:35 pm

celticfan42487 wrote:
No Offense wrote:According to http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stats/, Orlando is #1 in 3 pointers attempted in the league at 28.3. They are #1 with points from three pointers with 31.2 per game. They are dead last in points from two pointers with 50.4 per game. They are third in the league of free throws attempted with 28.0 per game and 8th in the league of points from free throws with 19.7 per game. Orlando gets called for the 4th least amount of personal fouls per game with 20.2. They also draw the 2nd most fouls per game with their opponents committing 23.5 per game.

This means that:

1. Orlando shoots a lot of threes
2. Orlando makes a lot of threes
3. Orlando doesn't shoot a lot of two point shots
4. Orlando shoots a lot of free throws
5. Orlando doesn't make a lot of free throws compared to how many they take
6. Orlando doesn't get called for a lot of personal fouls
7. Orlando's opponents get called for a lot of fouls.

Can we stop talking about the fake tragedy that is the the unfair treatment towards the Orlando Magic by the NBA and officiating crews? It's silliness.


/thread



Thanks. I want to add that in my #5 note, that means that Dwight Howard is taking a lot of those free throws. He's among the league leaders in FTA per game.

The number are heavily in favor of this supposed bias against Orlando being overblown by their fans and coach.

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