TrueHoop: Bosh Wants To Be The Man

[Dr Positivity]

Bosh is playing at prime Dirk's level right now... if Dirk could make it within 5 minutes of going 3-0 in the finals and thus winning the title, what's to say Bosh can't do the same? You can throw Webber in there too. These guys could've won the title, they just didn't.

[Dr Positivity]

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

That goes w/o saying, but how likely is that given the East will now have most probably LBJ/Amare and VC/Howard for the next 3-4 years hogging up the East's rep for the Finals?

Wade and Bosh are going to have to look long and hard at somehow teaming up together, because their respective teams and the progress that could be made isn't going to match up to the 2 aforementioned above.

VC/Howard? Vince is done NOW, let alone in a few years. Sure Lebron and whoever Howard ends up playing with, along with some other teams like Chicago and Indiana or whatever will be trouble... but there will always be elite teams going for the title. The best you can do is work yourself up to 55 win and 60 win level and then hope for the best.

[everdiso]

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

That goes w/o saying, but how likely is that given the East will now have most probably LBJ/Amare and VC/Howard for the next 3-4 years hogging up the East's rep for the Finals?

Wade and Bosh are going to have to look long and hard at somehow teaming up together, because their respective teams and the progress that could be made isn't going to match up to the 2 aforementioned above.

in all honesty, why do you keep saying VC/Howard as if that's some unmatchable duo?

that's a very limited big man and a 33 year old tissue soft wing player.

Bosh/Bargs is significantly outplaying that twosome this year already.

Heck, Hedo was better for the Magic last year than VC has been for them this year, and Hedo's a distant #3 option on the Raps this year.

as for Lebron - yeah, he might be the best player of all time, and any team that wants to win will have to go through him at some point. this doesn't mean that no other team has a chance for the next 15 years.

[Flash3]

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

That goes w/o saying, but how likely is that given the East will now have most probably LBJ/Amare and VC/Howard for the next 3-4 years hogging up the East's rep for the Finals?

Wade and Bosh are going to have to look long and hard at somehow teaming up together, because their respective teams and the progress that could be made isn't going to match up to the 2 aforementioned above.

VC/Howard? Vince is done NOW, let alone in a few years. Sure Lebron and whoever Howard ends up playing with, along with some other teams like Chicago and Indiana or whatever will be trouble... but there will always be elite teams going for the title. The best you can do is work yourself up to 55 win and 60 win level and then hope for the best.

I don't see Chicago and Indiana amassing to much, they don't have game/series changing players (LBJ, Kobe, Bosh, Howard, Wade etc), the only teams in the East that concern me right now and for the next few years would be Orlando and Cleveland. And, if you're wanting to contend, you need to somehow match-up with those 2 teams to be able to contend with them for a chance at a title.

You don't hope for the best. WTH? -- You need to go and react to match-up to your competition, it's why Cleveland added Shaq; to battle Howard.

[Flash3]

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

That goes w/o saying, but how likely is that given the East will now have most probably LBJ/Amare and VC/Howard for the next 3-4 years hogging up the East's rep for the Finals?

Wade and Bosh are going to have to look long and hard at somehow teaming up together, because their respective teams and the progress that could be made isn't going to match up to the 2 aforementioned above.

in all honesty, why do you keep saying VC/Howard as if that's some unmatchable duo?

that's a very limited big man and a 33 year old tissue soft wing player.

Bosh/Bargs is significantly outplaying that twosome this year already.

Heck, Hedo was better for the Magic last year than VC has been for them this year, and Hedo's a distant #3 option on the Raps this year.

as for Lebron - yeah, he might be the best player of all time, and any team that wants to win will have to go through him at some point. this doesn't mean that no other team has a chance for the next 15 years.

Not really worried on what VC and Howard have done in the regular season up to date, because right now the Magic don't have much to prove in the regular season, it's all about the POs for them, and deeper. -- Howard has proven he can carry his team to the Finals, but he needs the help of his swingmen to come through, as well; last year it was Hedo and Lewis playing key roles. -- This year he's got what might come out to be a better player overall in VC that has fared well individually in the POs, but never team wise.

You have to worry about Cleveland and Orlando IF you want to contend for a title, there's no way around it. And, whether Bargnani can become that true 2nd option game/series changing player remains to be seen, and it's something BOTH Wade and Bosh have to answer.

Wade: is Beasley really the answer?
Bosh: is Bargnani really the answer?

[Dr Positivity]

I don't see Chicago and Indiana amassing to much, they don't have game/series changing players (LBJ, Kobe, Bosh, Howard, Wade etc), the only teams in the East that concern me right now and for the next few years would be Orlando and Cleveland. And, if you're wanting to contend, you need to somehow match-up with those 2 teams to be able to contend with them for a chance at a title.

You don't hope for the best. WTH? -- You need to go and react to match-up to your competition, it's why Cleveland added Shaq; to battle Howard.

Well that's what I mean by hope for the best. Once you get up to that level, you need some luck in the over the top moves that come to you or luck in other teams screwing up. For example if Denver wins it all this year a big part of it will be Lawson and Afflalo falling into their laps. Lawson in particular took him falling out of the lottery which was stupid AND Minny trading their pick. Also perhaps much will be made of the Lakers taking Artest over Ariza if Artest bombs the playoffs

[Raps United]

If Bosh can be the clear best player on a contender that'll make him a superstar

That goes w/o saying, but how likely is that given the East will now have most probably LBJ/Amare and VC/Howard for the next 3-4 years hogging up the East's rep for the Finals?

Wade and Bosh are going to have to look long and hard at somehow teaming up together, because their respective teams and the progress that could be made isn't going to match up to the 2 aforementioned above.

The east is in in a bit of a flux right now.

- The VC/Howard pairing is at best has another year left and even now they look beatable.
- Lebron and anyone has a great chance to go to the finals.
- The Celts are on their way out.
- Atlanta definitely need to keep Johnson to continue to be at the top of the conference. (I feel they will)

Bosh and company have a very young core locked up. If they can keep this group together for the next couple years I have no doubt they will be contending for the Eastern Conference crown there is no reason to suggest they won't.

[sca]

huh?

Bargs is one of the quickest 7-footers the league has ever seen.

And he's a true 7-footer, with true centre 250lbs+ bulk.

Well, he can't get off the ground and he also gets bullied by stronger post players. These are facts.

He certainly doesn't get bullied around in the post, unless you're talking about Shaq.

This is easily the biggest misconception about Bargs.

Criticize his help defense, sure, because he deserves it.....but Bargs can guard most any centre in the league on one one with his combination of size, length, and quicks, and as he continues to improve is allowing the raps to avoid having to double down on the likes of Duncan and Dwight.

Man, I watch every Raptors game too... What you say is homerish. He's just not strong enough. He should've been averaging 2+ blocks per game by your logic. Actually, his help defense is so bad that it makes his man D look great. He's what he is, a talented scorer with good quickness, threat from anywhere of the court, below average rebounder at best, above average man defender, terrible help defender.

Don't get too excited about the Spurs game. Bargs surely played well, but players can have off games. It happens to every one of them. Especially to the ones on the wrong side of 30.

[everdiso]

well, it's funny, because he HAS been averaging near 2 blocks a game for a while now, and has his average up to a very solid 1.5ish now.

and it's not just one game against the Spurs, but also what he's done recently against all the top frontcourts in the league - Lakers, Spurs, Magic, Dallas, Cleveland, etc.

[sca]

well, it's funny, because he HAS been averaging near 2 blocks a game for a while now, and has his average up to a very solid 1.5ish now.

and it's not just one game against the Spurs, but also what he's done recently against all the top frontcourts in the league - Lakers, Spurs, Magic, Dallas, Cleveland, etc.

Bynum actually destroyed him.
The Spurs game, I'll give you that.
Dwight did no extra damage on the Raps, but didn't really need to. They won the season series 3-1 this year.
The Mavericks game was a blowout. It's not like they have an inside scorer anyway.
In the second Cavs game, Shaq has scored 16 points on 7-10 shooting in just 24 minutes. What else do you want?

And while we're talking about games, why don't you look at the game Bogut has made him his *****?

Yeah, he's been improving defensively, but he still has long ways to go.

[Flash3]

I don't see Chicago and Indiana amassing to much, they don't have game/series changing players (LBJ, Kobe, Bosh, Howard, Wade etc), the only teams in the East that concern me right now and for the next few years would be Orlando and Cleveland. And, if you're wanting to contend, you need to somehow match-up with those 2 teams to be able to contend with them for a chance at a title.

You don't hope for the best. WTH? -- You need to go and react to match-up to your competition, it's why Cleveland added Shaq; to battle Howard.

Well that's what I mean by hope for the best. Once you get up to that level, you need some luck in the over the top moves that come to you or luck in other teams screwing up. For example if Denver wins it all this year a big part of it will be Lawson and Afflalo falling into their laps. Lawson in particular took him falling out of the lottery which was stupid AND Minny trading their pick. Also perhaps much will be made of the Lakers taking Artest over Ariza if Artest bombs the playoffs

Yeah, you do have a point as I mentioned earlier, which I am not saying is wrong by any means.

But, IMHO IF LeBron gets Amare, in order for Bosh or Wade to sniff a conference finals appearance, let alone an NBA Finals berth, they are going to need some SERIOUS help, like another top player by their sides. That's why I stand by that IF Wade and Bosh are serious about winning, they'll find a way to team up together to combat your LBJ/Amare or Kobe/Gasol or Howard/VC.

[Flash3]

USeless arguing with that kid, he's so ingrained in Bargnani being the better player now and in the future, that he had to fabricate non-sense (Vlade being washed up and that's why Sacto didn't win titles, and Webber wasn't a leader and is selfish), in an attempt to prop up his own player.

there is nothing nonsense in saying that Divac was a diminished player at the end of his career, nor in saying that Webber was selfish and a poor leader.

Ehh, not all over again, I already explained earlier my issue with your comments which you kept twisting to avoid the real point one was trying to make.

You made 2 mindless posts when you said Divac was washed up and w/ever else accompanied it, and went on to say that Webber wasn't a leader and some other non-sense, as to reasons why the Sacramento Kings didn't win a title or get into the NBA Finals. -- Which are 2 mind-numbingly (Please Use More Appropriate Word) concepts, because it's pure fabrication in an attempt to prop up Bargnani. -- You had a fellow Toronto fan (IIRC) informing you to tone down the homerism.

Bargnani is a great young player and should only get better as he goes on. But, why it was important to degrade and denote Divac and Webber as the fabrications you compiled on them, is beyond me. -- Let Bargnani's accomplishments stand as their own, don't be little another player to make your own player seem better, because it's silly.

[crossroads]

With players like Webber, Peja, Bibby, Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo the Kings didn't need very much scoring from Vlade. In fact, in the starting lineup he was the 5th option, and even this current version of Bargnani would likely only be the 4th option on that team, so it's doubtful he would be putting up anything close to 16-17 points per game if he were on those Kings teams. And since Divac wasn't required to be a scorer, his passing made him a much more valuable asset (especially when surrounded by shooters like Peja and Bibby) then Bargs would have been on that team. And that's not trying to take anything away from Bargs as a player, it's simply that on that team his strengths would have been diminished and he simply doesn't have the passing skills and vision of Divac.

yes, those Kings were a stacked offensive team, and these Raps are a stacked offensive team.

Bargs is the 2nd option on one of the best offensive teams in the league, Divac was a 4th or 5th option on one of the best offensive teams in the league.

Once again though you're basically judging a players worth on how many points he scores. I don't think there are too many people who would argue that Bargnani at this point in his career is a better scorer then Divac near the end of his career. That's not the point. On the Kings team he'd be behind Webber, Peja, and Bibby on the list of scoring options, so then likely wouldn't get nearly enough shots to average what he averages now.

Plus Bargnani's best attribute is his ability to shoot, but that Kings team was already stacked with shooters, meaning his on court value would be lower then it is on Toronto where he's our best three point shooter in the starting lineup. Because of this, Divac's ability as a passer was huge for the Kings, and allowed them to get the ball into their best players hands in advantageous positions. That's just not an aspect of the game that Bargnani has yet to develop.

There's also the fairly significant difference between Divac and Bargnani defensively. No Divac wasn't exactly a defensive juggernaut, but he was crafty and smart, and one of the best in the league at drawing charges. He probably wasn't any better than Bargs as a man defender, but his help defense was worlds better then Bargnani's currently is. The fact is that Bargs would not make the Kings a better team than Divac did as Divac's strengths were vital to those Kings teams success, and their skills that Bargnani simply has yet to develop.

[Guido]

As a very good former player, I understand wanting to "be the man", but what alot of you posters don't understand is all the responsibility that comes with it.

[everdiso]

well, it's funny, because he HAS been averaging near 2 blocks a game for a while now, and has his average up to a very solid 1.5ish now.

and it's not just one game against the Spurs, but also what he's done recently against all the top frontcourts in the league - Lakers, Spurs, Magic, Dallas, Cleveland, etc.

Bynum actually destroyed him.
The Spurs game, I'll give you that.
Dwight did no extra damage on the Raps, but didn't really need to. They won the season series 3-1 this year.
The Mavericks game was a blowout. It's not like they have an inside scorer anyway.
In the second Cavs game, Shaq has scored 16 points on 7-10 shooting in just 24 minutes. What else do you want?

And while we're talking about games, why don't you look at the game Bogut has made him his *****?

Yeah, he's been improving defensively, but he still has long ways to go.

Actually, he made Bynum his biatch, and Bynum scored all his points on alley-oops when Bargs was off the court.

and yes, I agree with all the rest of the ones you said - all impressive performances by Bargs against the top frontcourst in the league.

as for Shaq - you seemed to have glossed over the 5 fouls in 24minutes that he got which kept him off the court the whole game, because he couldn't handle Bargs.

And yes, Bogut had a big game against a limping Bargs who had to leave the game early with a back injury, and missed his next game with the same injury.


btw, I looked it up - 1.8bpg for Bargs in his last 25.

[everdiso]

USeless arguing with that kid, he's so ingrained in Bargnani being the better player now and in the future, that he had to fabricate non-sense (Vlade being washed up and that's why Sacto didn't win titles, and Webber wasn't a leader and is selfish), in an attempt to prop up his own player.

there is nothing nonsense in saying that Divac was a diminished player at the end of his career, nor in saying that Webber was selfish and a poor leader.

Ehh, not all over again, I already explained earlier my issue with your comments which you kept twisting to avoid the real point one was trying to make.

You made 2 mindless posts when you said Divac was washed up and w/ever else accompanied it, and went on to say that Webber wasn't a leader and some other non-sense, as to reasons why the Sacramento Kings didn't win a title or get into the NBA Finals. -- Which are 2 mind-numbingly (Please Use More Appropriate Word) concepts, because it's pure fabrication in an attempt to prop up Bargnani. -- You had a fellow Toronto fan (IIRC) informing you to tone down the homerism.

Bargnani is a great young player and should only get better as he goes on. But, why it was important to degrade and denote Divac and Webber as the fabrications you compiled on them, is beyond me. -- Let Bargnani's accomplishments stand as their own, don't be little another player to make your own player seem better, because it's silly.

no, you missed the point, and went off on a meaningless tangent.

the point being that if Webber had a prime Divac beside him in the frontcourt, his team just might have won a championship.

There was no "degrading" of Divac - he was at the end of his career, and a shadow of the player he was in his prime, when the Kings were contenders. that's just fact. And the fact that you're going on and on about this minor side issue just shows you you've got little else to say on the actual points being discussed.

SO you can keep crying about this non-issue if you'd like, but the point remains - if Webber had a prime Divac beside him, he just might have won a title.

Thankfully, Bosh is gonna have a prime Bargs beside him.

[BlackIce]

^^

[everdiso]

With players like Webber, Peja, Bibby, Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo the Kings didn't need very much scoring from Vlade. In fact, in the starting lineup he was the 5th option, and even this current version of Bargnani would likely only be the 4th option on that team, so it's doubtful he would be putting up anything close to 16-17 points per game if he were on those Kings teams. And since Divac wasn't required to be a scorer, his passing made him a much more valuable asset (especially when surrounded by shooters like Peja and Bibby) then Bargs would have been on that team. And that's not trying to take anything away from Bargs as a player, it's simply that on that team his strengths would have been diminished and he simply doesn't have the passing skills and vision of Divac.

yes, those Kings were a stacked offensive team, and these Raps are a stacked offensive team.

Bargs is the 2nd option on one of the best offensive teams in the league, Divac was a 4th or 5th option on one of the best offensive teams in the league.

Once again though you're basically judging a players worth on how many points he scores. I don't think there are too many people who would argue that Bargnani at this point in his career is a better scorer then Divac near the end of his career. That's not the point. On the Kings team he'd be behind Webber, Peja, and Bibby on the list of scoring options, so then likely wouldn't get nearly enough shots to average what he averages now.

Plus Bargnani's best attribute is his ability to shoot, but that Kings team was already stacked with shooters, meaning his on court value would be lower then it is on Toronto where he's our best three point shooter in the starting lineup. Because of this, Divac's ability as a passer was huge for the Kings, and allowed them to get the ball into their best players hands in advantageous positions. That's just not an aspect of the game that Bargnani has yet to develop.

There's also the fairly significant difference between Divac and Bargnani defensively. No Divac wasn't exactly a defensive juggernaut, but he was crafty and smart, and one of the best in the league at drawing charges. He probably wasn't any better than Bargs as a man defender, but his help defense was worlds better then Bargnani's currently is. The fact is that Bargs would not make the Kings a better team than Divac did as Divac's strengths were vital to those Kings teams success, and their skills that Bargnani simply has yet to develop.

Look, those Kings teams were an offensive juggernaut, and not great defensively - that's why the comparison was made in the first place.

Nobody is saying Divac was a bad player - just that he was no longer the player he was in his prime.

and you're right - Divac was no defensive juggernaut, and no better than Bargs on the defensive end.

as I've already said, Divac's role on that team more resembled Hedo's role on this Raps team.

and Bargs is more important to this Raps team being one of the best offensive teams in the league than Hedo is.

and, btw, you SAYING that Bargs would be behind those other Kings as a scoring option doesn't actually make it true.



BUt we can keep on going back and forth - like I've already said, the more the Raps continue to win, the more the critics are going to struggle to explain why the likes of Bosh and Bargs aren't excellent players.

Right now the Raps are one of the youngest teams in the league, and one of the hottest teams in the league, and have been playing fantastic ball since about a month and a half into the season. And they've been doing this because Bosh and Bargs have been the most dominant frontcourt in the league over the last couple of months, at ages 25 and 24. That's just the truth - and if they keep it up, I'm not sure what else will be left for the critics to say, really.

[crossroads]

Look, those Kings teams were an offensive juggernaut, and not great defensively - that's why the comparison was made in the first place.

Actually, in 2000-2001 the Kings were the 7th rated defensive team, in 2001-2002 they were the 6th rated defensive team, and in 2002-2003 they were the 2nd rated defensive team.

Nobody is saying Divac was a bad player - just that he was no longer the player he was in his prime.

and you're right - Divac was no defensive juggernaut, and no better than Bargs on the defensive end.

Maybe we're going to have to agree to disagree here, but Divac was much better defensively then Bargs.

as I've already said, Divac's role on that team more resembled Hedo's role on this Raps team.

and Bargs is more important to this Raps team being one of the best offensive teams in the league than Hedo is.

and, btw, you SAYING that Bargs would be behind those other Kings as a scoring option doesn't actually make it true.

So question then...a starting lineup of Bibby, Christie, Peja, Webber and Bargs...where would you rank him in the pecking order? I don't see any way he can be ahead of Webber or Peja (both all-stars) and I have a hard time seeing him being ahead of Bibby either (one of the better scoring PGs in the league at the time.

BUt we can keep on going back and forth - like I've already said, the more the Raps continue to win, the more the critics are going to struggle to explain why the likes of Bosh and Bargs aren't excellent players.

Right now the Raps are one of the youngest teams in the league, and one of the hottest teams in the league, and have been playing fantastic ball since about a month and a half into the season. And they've been doing this because Bosh and Bargs have been the most dominant frontcourt in the league over the last couple of months, at ages 25 and 24. That's just the truth - and if they keep it up, I'm not sure what else will be left for the critics to say, really.

Look, I think the Raptors are better then their current record and that their current level of play is more indicative of their talent level then the first 20 games on the season. But they are still one of the worst defensive teams in the league, and they still can't beat even mediocre teams on the road with any consistency. With that being said, it's reasonable for people to doubt that Bosh and Bargs can form a championship caliber front court because history shows us that it is very hard to win a title with a team that plays poor defense, and good defensive play from your big men is necessary to be a good defensive team. As a centre Bargnani has yet to show that he can consistently play the type of defense needed to push this Raptors teams into contender status.

[everdiso]

And this will be my last post here, but just to show exactly what these two have been doing.....


Last 24 games:

Raptors Record: 18-6 (.750w%)

C/PF C.Bosh (25): 24.8ppg (56.3%), 11.7rpg, 2.8apg, 1.0blk
C/PF A.Bargnani (24): 19.2ppg (48.9%), 6.3rpg, 1.1apg, 1.8blk

now you can cry all you want about numbers only showing so much, but you'll be hard pressed to find many duos that can match those numbers, and as long as the Raps continue winning like they have been for a long while now, it's gonna be harder and harder to deny that they're pretty dang good.