Bigger steal: Haywood/Butler or Gasol?

[garrick]

If Marc Gasol was a bust then yes the LA deal would be extremely lopsided which it seemed at the time, luckily for Memphis Marc turned out alright. Mavs really got the better end of this deal.

[GrizzledGrizzFan]

As direct result and in some parts indirectly resulting from the Gasol to the Lakers deal, the Grizzlies have acquired:

Marc Gasol
Darrell Arthur
An additional pick from the JCritt deal to the Wizards
An additional pick in the upcoming draft
Cap space from the Kwame brown expiring deal which allowed for the acquisition of OJ Mayo
Cap space when added to Darko, who was flipped for Quinton Richardson, who (along with the space from Walker who came over in the Mayo deal) was flipped for Z'Bo

That's 3/5's of the current starting line up as a direct result of Pau to the Lakers.
Marc wasn't a total surprise to the fans in Memphis either - yeah, he's exceeded our expectations (as has Zach!), but we've followed him and been aware of him since he played HS ball here.

To this day my ONLY gripe with the Pau trade was that it went down 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.

Pau is in LA what he was here in Memphis - the BEST second option in the league today. Exactly what he was in Memphis, only here he was expected to be the first option.

Now - back to your international neener neenering...

[jefe]

Josh Howard when healthy is a very good player! The fact that he has a team option in his contract is also extremely valuable in this economic situation. On draft day his contract will be an unbelievable asset if the wizards are prepared to take on some contracts (picks, young players) from a team seeking more cap space...

And Marc Gasol? At the time of the trade all of you who posted here had no clue who he was! Gasol was basically a mediocre player until 2008. He was average and known only because of his big brother. He made unbelievable progress in one season but at the start of 08 no one even imagined he could turn out to be this good. He was a throw in in the trade. If LA tried harder MEM would be OK with another 2nd rounder...

So, basically, the trade was made for Brown. MEM was just lucky enough to get a player back that turned out to actually be good, because at the time of the trade they had no real idea who he was...

You really shouldn't project your lack of knowledge regarding Marc Gasol, at the time, on to everyone else. Here's Grizz GM Chris Wallace's take on Marc Gasol two (2) months after the Pau Gasol trade.

He's really made a tremendous improvement, one of the most startling you'll see. He's a key reason why we made this deal. He was a second-round pick last year. There's no question he'd go in the first round this year.

And Marc Gasol sure was average at the time. I'll leave this one to April 2008 Chris Wallace as well:

He's worked diligently on his game and he's having a terrific year. He's definitely a top candidate for MVP honors in the ACB league. He's been player of the week like seven or eight times already.

And I guess Memphis had no idea who he was at the time, what with him having played high school ball in Memphis. April 2008 Chris Wallace yet again:

The player you saw last year before the draft is not the guy you see today. There was concern about the weight. He was heavy (last year). He's transformed his body since the time he's lived in Memphis.

All of these quotes came from here:
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/apr/11/marc-gasols-potential-has-griz-eager/

[Banks2Pierce]

Here's Grizz GM Chris Wallace's take on Marc Gasol two (2) months after the Pau Gasol trade.

You do see the problem here with this argument, right?

And they were both pretty lopsided, but I have to go with the Gasol swap as being the bigger steal.

Haywood/Butler was pretty bad too when you consider Cuban would've done the deal without Haywood involved.

[TheBigThree]

Haywood/Butler was pretty bad too when you consider Cuban would've done the deal without Haywood involved.

Wait, what? What makes you say that?

Haywood was, and is, the center piece of that deal. Caron and Howard are basically washes, former all-stars who needed changes of scenery.

For Washington, this deal can't be properly evaluated until next year at the very earliest.

[Banks2Pierce]

Haywood/Butler was pretty bad too when you consider Cuban would've done the deal without Haywood involved.

Wait, what? What makes you say that?

Haywood was, and is, the center piece of that deal. Caron and Howard are basically washes, former all-stars who needed changes of scenery.

For Washington, this deal can't be properly evaluated until next year at the very earliest.

That's what I thought too until I heard it come directly from Cuban's mouth last weekend.

[Harry Palmer]

Josh Howard when healthy is a very good player! The fact that he has a team option in his contract is also extremely valuable in this economic situation. On draft day his contract will be an unbelievable asset if the wizards are prepared to take on some contracts (picks, young players) from a team seeking more cap space...

And Marc Gasol? At the time of the trade all of you who posted here had no clue who he was! Gasol was basically a mediocre player until 2008. He was average and known only because of his big brother. He made unbelievable progress in one season but at the start of 08 no one even imagined he could turn out to be this good. He was a throw in in the trade. If LA tried harder MEM would be OK with another 2nd rounder...

So, basically, the trade was made for Brown. MEM was just lucky enough to get a player back that turned out to actually be good, because at the time of the trade they had no real idea who he was...

Stop making yourself look foolish.. Your from Slovenia, you dont know basketball. Go suck back to sleep and suck on your thumb...

Isn't Slovenia part of the former Yugoslavia? As far as I remember, they were a basketball powerhouse.

Slovenia's ****ing gorgeous. They have this National Park around this system of lakes and man-made waterworks that look just unreal. Am so going to go there someday.

Anyone know the name? I forget. I could probably find it, but I'm lazy.

[Father Time]

Just looked up some images of Slovenia. Looks amazing.

[Mamba Venom]

Gasols game is a mix of Heywood and Caron

----------------

But on a serious note Caron and Howard cancel each other out. I dont like Howard as a person and I really like Caron as a person but on the basketball court they are pretty much equals. Heywood for nothing is a huge steal for the Mavs.

----------------

Which trio is better
Heywood, Dirk, Butler

or

Bynum, Gasol, Artest

???

[Harry Palmer]

Just looked up some images of Slovenia. Looks amazing.

Yeah, it's gorgeous. The park I meant is actually in Croatia right near Slovenia, it turns out, but Slovenia is incredible. Am going to both.

(the park is called Plitvice National Park, and it looks like something out of a sci-fi movie...just too gorgeous)

[dlts20]

It depends on what you mean by steal. IDK about the Grizz fans but Im pretty sure they are happy with the team they have now minus the fact that they took Tharbeet over a PG.

Im a Wiz fan and any other Wiz fan will tell you that they could care less about Caron & Wood. Caron was very good but was a terrible fit in Flip's system. He woudlve never been anything more than average. Wiz fans didnt care about Caron, Stevenson, or Jamison. The only one they may have cared some about is Wood but none of them are crying about that because we all know McGee's upside is so much higher that its not even funny. As a Wiz fan I didnt want Wood back in the offseason anyways because of that. I want McGee to get minutes. You saw him get 20 & 9 tonight. He has mad potential while Wood is a beast, he is limited in alot of ways.

If we had Eddie Jordan then things may be different but Caron didnt fit in Flip's system and AJ had turned into such a black hole that everyone hated him. We love Blatche & McGee way more than AJ & Wood and Howard looked 10x better in Flip's offense than Caron. It may be a steal from the standpoint that the Mavs basically gave up nothing they wanted and got back 2 studs but its not a steal in the sense that they robbed the Wiz. Both teams got what they wanted and I think it was nearly the same for the Grizz trade

[Boss_]

Look I like marc gasol as much as the next guy...hopefully he can stay motivated to stay in shape...but pau gasol trade was pretty damn epic.

[wowski]

Gasol, because they ended up winning a championship. If the Mavs win a ring this year then we can compare.

THIS

[mysticbb]

You really shouldn't project your lack of knowledge regarding Marc Gasol, at the time, on to everyone else. Here's Grizz GM Chris Wallace's take on Marc Gasol two (2) months after the Pau Gasol trade.

He's really made a tremendous improvement, one of the most startling you'll see. He's a key reason why we made this deal. He was a second-round pick last year. There's no question he'd go in the first round this year.

Sorry, but his words about Crittenton were also pretty positive, and look how that worked out. How was his evaluation of Hasheem Thabeet? He failed with these two and you are using his statements to justify a loopsided trade as a proof that he knew that Marc Gasol would be a sure thing?

Marc Gasol had too much weight at this time, he wasn't expected to lose weight and being able to keep up with the pace of the NBA. His contribution is Europe was great and I most certainly thought he can make an impact in the NBA. But I would have never traded his better brother to get him.

You also failed to see that the rights to Marc Gasol were pretty much worthless to the Lakers. They had no capspace to sign him to a reasonable contract anyway and Marc Gasol wouldn't have come over for the rookie minimum. In the end Marc Gasol was probably available for a mid 1st round pick, something the Grizzlies would have had. There was no need to trade Pau Gasol for him. In fact it might have been the way better idea to keep Pau Gasol, try to trade for Marc Gasol and try to get capspace via shipping out Mike Miller. I take a Gasol/Gasol over M. Gasol/Randolph any day of the week. There is no player in the league who is producing bigger empty numbers than Randolph. His APM is always around 0. He has the impact of an average player, that is all. Well, David Lee is on his level in this season.

After the Gasol trade went down, Chris Wallace was pretty quick to say that Mike Miller will not be traded, because he would mean so much for the team and the community. Well, at the next draft day that very important player was gone.

Matter of fact is that since that trade the Grizzlies had no increase in attendance, in fact they had a higher attendance during their years with Pau Gasol. They aren't in a better financial situation, their revenue even went down. And what is the outlook? They probably win around 43 games this season, they will not make the playoffs again, they either overpay Rudy Gay or let him walk. OJ Mayo isn't really improving, in fact his APM numbers are down from last year. Darrell Arthur doesn't get any playing time. So, what will we see next season? My best bet is lottery again, if nothing seriously good will happen over the summer (e.g. Mayo makes an massive improvement, Grizzlies win the lottery, etc.). The Grizzlies are mediocre, the trade didn't change anything expect the mindset of the Grizzlies fans and the numbers of championships for the Lakers.


To the op question:

Bigger steal was Gasol, because the the Mavericks actually paid for getting Haywood by taking on Stevenson's contract. It would be more equal, if the Lakers would have paid for Gasol with taking on a bad contract too. That is the difference between those two trades in the end. Talentwise? Not quite sure, but the Lakers traded away around 30 minutes per game in Brown and Crittenton and got 34 minutes per game in Pau Gasol back. The Mavericks traded away around 70 minutes per game in Howard, Gooden, Singleton and Ross and got around 78 minutes per game back in Butler, Haywood and Stevenson. Well, Howard and Butler only seperate themself from each other via minutes, Haywood is far better than Gooden, but overall it isn't such a huge upgrade like Gasol for Brown.

The future impact depends on wether Howard and the Wizards can agree on a smaller contract. The financial benifit was lux tax relief in this season and the team option for Howard instead of the guaranteed contract of Butler, both are at the same age. Haywood would have probably gone after this season anyway. Gooden was used to get Al Thornton, a player still on a rookie contract next season. In the end the trade for the Wizards was also more logical, because they have young promising talent on the team which can get more playing time now in McGee and Blatche. The Grizzlies didn't have something like this, also a huge difference which should be taken into account when judging a trade. The Grizzlies trade doesn't look that bad today anymore, because Marc Gasol is a really great addition, but nonetheless he doesn't justify trading away a better player in Pau Gasol.

[GrizzledGrizzFan]

Look I like marc gasol as much as the next guy...hopefully he can stay motivated to stay in shape...but pau gasol trade was pretty damn epic.

Again, don't get hung up on just Marc.

Let me put it this way, had the Grizz not traded Pau, then not only would Marc not be here, but there's no Zach and no OJ Mayo. Period. Zach + Mayo + Marc > Pau. No doubt that without Pau the Lakers would have a tougher road to the finals, but do not discount that the Grizz were going NOWHERE with Pau and his contract.

[BB Chrome]

I think that time has taken away some of the shock of the P Gasol trade and it has leveled out in time. Today, the trade looks much better on the Memphis end than it first did originally. Marc Gasol is an excellent big man prospect......which is a rare value and a necessity in the Western Conference.

Haywood/Butler was a great move by the Mavs as they traded the Wizards a player who broke down quick and gave them 3 or 4 games before the injury. It's like selling someone a car that looks nice but has a bad engine. The Wizards got a Lemon.....ouch!

[myconsumerclub]

Haywood and Butler are both starters. Gasol is the only starter that the Lakers got back and Dallas is 13 and 1 since the trade. One of the victories was against LA when Caron was out to a reaction to meds and DAMP also missed that game. The laker fans are in panic mode as a result and seem to be in major denial that Dallas may have made the right move to pass them and in fact the mavs will pass LA in the standings if the 2 teams continue to play as they have these last 10 games.

[kombayn]

Gasol is easily the bigger steal. How many championships did the Butler/Haywood trade get them? Hmm...

[Deus]

Marc Gasol is a young center, Josh Howard is a forward and turns 30 next month. I'd rather have Gasol. So the Mavs got the better deal.

[GrizzledGrizzFan]

Sorry, but his words about Crittenton were also pretty positive, and look how that worked out. How was his evaluation of Hasheem Thabeet? He failed with these two and you are using his statements to justify a loopsided trade as a proof that he knew that Marc Gasol would be a sure thing?

JCritt looked better than he was when he came in. HOWEVER, Thabeet was not Wallace's choice - he was 4th or lower on his depth chart. Rubio was Wallace's initial pick with Tyreke Evans taking that slot when it became obvious that Rubio wasn't coming to Memphis. Thabeet was the pick of Tony Barone Sr. who, unfortunately, caught Heisley's ear.

Marc Gasol had too much weight at this time, he wasn't expected to lose weight and being able to keep up with the pace of the NBA. His contribution is Europe was great and I most certainly thought he can make an impact in the NBA. But I would have never traded his better brother to get him.

Gasol was his league's MVP and already dropping weight prior to coming to Memphis. He wasn't the lynch pin to the trade either - it was cap space/flexibility.

You also failed to see that the rights to Marc Gasol were pretty much worthless to the Lakers. They had no capspace to sign him to a reasonable contract anyway and Marc Gasol wouldn't have come over for the rookie minimum. In the end Marc Gasol was probably available for a mid 1st round pick, something the Grizzlies would have had. There was no need to trade Pau Gasol for him. In fact it might have been the way better idea to keep Pau Gasol, try to trade for Marc Gasol and try to get capspace via shipping out Mike Miller. I take a Gasol/Gasol over M. Gasol/Randolph any day of the week. There is no player in the league who is producing bigger empty numbers than Randolph. His APM is always around 0. He has the impact of an average player, that is all. Well, David Lee is on his level in this season.

Miller was shipped out as part of the OJ Mayo deal.

After the Gasol trade went down, Chris Wallace was pretty quick to say that Mike Miller will not be traded, because he would mean so much for the team and the community. Well, at the next draft day that very important player was gone.

Again, Mike went to Minn so OJ could come to Memphis.

Matter of fact is that since that trade the Grizzlies had no increase in attendance, in fact they had a higher attendance during their years with Pau Gasol. They aren't in a better financial situation, their revenue even went down. And what is the outlook?

Attendance was going down with Gasol. The Grizz were also ahead of the curve in the "cash considerations" deals than other franchises and were able to mitigate some of the attendance down turn.

Bottom line is that there is truth in some of what you have posted, but it's twisted to the point that it becomes largely irrelevant.