Dwight Howard's supporting cast: the worst of all contenders

[synesthesia]

No other team in the league may have Orland beat at 4-9 but you better be really dang good at 2 and 3 if you want to win a championship.

exactly, exactly, you are very wise, one of the few people here who understands how championships are won; even a lot of NBA GMs make this fallacy, sacrificing having elite #2 and #3 for 'depth'; it is nowhere near as important to win the 4-9 battle as it is to win the 2 and 3 battle; not to say Otis smith didnt pay high, he gave Rashard Lewis #1 option money

you get it

not many in this thread due, hence why everyone is so confused by my post

orlando is very weak at the #2 and #3 compared to other contenders, and no amount of Matt barnes and Pietrus being good 7th men is going to compensate for that;

one only has to look at the last decades of championship winners; stacked at the top, role players not very important at all

this is why GMs make the biggest mistakes by offering a bunch of MLE contracts; you wanna build your team with 2-3 superstars and the rest scrubs, truth be told

[_BBIB_]

Last year Rashard took way more shots and he had a lot less offensive talent & also played more MPG. His role changed slightly. He's shooting only 1% less than last year too..not a big difference. He doesn't need to shoot as much this year since we have good scorers 1-10..why can't people understand this?

Has nothing to do with MPG considering per 36

Last year
18/6/3

This year
15/5/2

It has nothing to do with minutes and everything to do with the guy was just a better player last year. He was better from field and the FT line as well. He did everything better. It's more than just playing 2.9 less minutes per game.

And I'd love to see the argument for how Vince Carter this season has outperformed Turkoglu last

[Obie09]

Only in the minds of a few of you is Dwight/Vince/Rashard not a great top 3. so is the cavs top 3 better?
lakers?

dwight/vince/rashard/
gasol/kobe/artest
lebron/williams/jamison

??

[Obie09]

Last year Rashard took way more shots and he had a lot less offensive talent & also played more MPG. His role changed slightly. He's shooting only 1% less than last year too..not a big difference. He doesn't need to shoot as much this year since we have good scorers 1-10..why can't people understand this?

Has nothing to do with MPG considering per 36

Last year
18/6/3

This year
15/5/2

It has nothing to do with minutes and everything to do with the guy was just a better player last year. He was better from field and the FT line as well. He did everything better. It's more than just playing 2.9 less minutes per game.

And I'd love to see the argument for how Vince Carter this season has outperformed Turkoglu last

This is how you tell the difference that stats may or may not show but I don't feel like looking...watch at least 70 games from last year and watch 70 games from this year...then you will notice the difference between Turk & Vince. And with Rashard, it's not only minutes but like i said DIFFERENT ROLE. hes the #4 option almost all the time now. He doesn't need to score as much, just play his role.

[mike_miller]

And I'd love to see the argument for how Vince Carter this season has outperformed Turkoglu last

he turns the ball over less and in much less (Please Use More Appropriate Word) ways...and he actually plays defense.

[Obie09]

And I'd love to see the argument for how Vince Carter this season has outperformed Turkoglu last

he turns the ball over less and in much less (Please Use More Appropriate Word) ways...and he actually plays defense.

Correct..Hedo was a HORRIBLE defender and was a huge liability, anyone who watched the Magic last season will agree with this as he was blown by 10 times a game.

[_BBIB_]

Only in the minds of a few of you is Dwight/Vince/Rashard not a great top 3. so is the cavs top 3 better?
lakers?

dwight/vince/rashard/
gasol/kobe/artest
lebron/williams/jamison

??

Actually if either the Cavs or Magic win the title this year they will be the exception to the oddity of teams needing that 2nd/3rd guy producing more than what those teams are getting from their guys.

Surely you weren't trying to put that Lakers cast up against the Magic were you? Gasol >>> Vince/Lewis. Even a healthy Bynum >>> either one of those guys

[Obie09]

Only in the minds of a few of you is Dwight/Vince/Rashard not a great top 3. so is the cavs top 3 better?
lakers?

dwight/vince/rashard/
gasol/kobe/artest
lebron/williams/jamison

??

Surely you weren't trying to put that Lakers cast up against the Magic were you? Gasol >>> Vince/Lewis. Even a healthy Bynum >>> either one of those guys

BUT WAIT ARTESTS STATS ARE WAY DOWN. He must suck now. Thats it. Artest isn't a #2 or #3 option or even 4. Look at his stats.

[tedwilliams1999]

Only in the minds of a few of you is Dwight/Vince/Rashard not a great top 3. so is the cavs top 3 better?
lakers?

dwight/vince/rashard/
gasol/kobe/artest
lebron/williams/jamison

??

Actually if either the Cavs or Magic win the title this year they will be the exception to the oddity of teams needing that 2nd/3rd guy producing more than what those teams are getting from their guys.

Surely you weren't trying to put that Lakers cast up against the Magic were you? Gasol >>> Vince/Lewis. Even a healthy Bynum >>> either one of those guys

You need to understand that although Gasol is a better player than Vince, this is only because elite post players are hard to come by, and thus they have more value in today's game. The Magic already have Howard, and so even if they replaced Vince with Gasol, their record would likely be similar to what it is now (if not worse).

Having a solid top 3 is one way to win a championship. Having one superstar and 8 solid players who complement the superstar perfectly is another way to win. The Cavs and Magic are proving that right now (just look at their records against the top teams in the league). If Cleveland or Orlando doesn't win it all this year, it WON'T be because they don't have a second star to go along with Lebron/Howard.

So how exactly does Orlando average over 100 points a game with a crappy supporting cast? D12 scores about 20 ppg, averages maybe an assist or two. Where are the other 76 points coming from? Oh yeah!!! It's coming from that crappy supporting cast he has.

I'm sure the counter argument to that will be something like this: Howard attracts quadruple teams, leaving the rest of the team open to shoot uncontested jumpers. This is definitely true to a certain extent, but the majority of the time the Magic run a pick and roll offense with Nelson + Howard or Vince + Howard. Without Nelson and Vince running the team, the Magic would not be where they are now.

[Last Guardian]

Carter has more talent in his sprained ankle than Turkoglu has entirely. Stop looking at your geeky numbers and look at actual ability and talent.

Pretty much goes for you too OP. Its amazing that you see only what you want to see. The Magic supporting cast may not be known as good defenders, but they actually play defense. Good defense, I might add.

I'm sorry, but no matter how amazing Dwight is defensively, you can't turn a team full of bad defenders into a lockdown team. The Magic roles players who you call "terrible" defensively, actually know exactly what to do on defense and where to be. Sure it would be nice if Rashard were bigger and more physical, or that Vince was 25 again, or that Nelson was a few inches taller. But that doesn't mean they are not playing great team defense and doing just about everything right.

No one is doubting that Dwight is an insane defender, and highly effective on the offensive end just by getting so much attention. And he certainly is the reason everything works so well. But to downplay the supporting cast is insanity.

You can point to Rashards and Vinces numbers all you like. Their numbers don't reflect actual ability. Vince can still take over a game and has proven that. There is no reason to believe Rashard is any worse then he was last season. Its not like he lost any athleticism from last, he didn't have much to begin with. The simple fact is that he doesn't get the ball as much, and neither does VC. The team is very well balanced.

[synesthesia]

Having one superstar and 8 solid players who complement the superstar perfectly is another way to win.

If this is true, why is it is so rare.

Hakeem's 93-94 Rockets comes to mind in any kind of recent history. The Pistons didnt even have 1 mega superstar (unless you consider Billups to be), so they were even more strange.

But in every other year, it's the same formula

this is like 28 of the past 30 championships

Kobe/Gasol
Big 3 Boston
Big 3 Spurs
Wade/Shaq
Kobe/Shaq
Jordan/Pippen
Isiah/Dumars
Magic/Kareem
Bird/McHale
Malone/Dr.J

[Blue_and_Whte]

synesthesia ....Your a clown dude. Please stop posting immediately.

[The Skyhook]

I think I would rather have the Magic's bench than the Lakers bench.

[Mr Excitement]

OP, you're still at it? Please take your medicine, which is lebron's lollipop.

Thank you.

[SOUL]

I think I would rather have the Magic's bench than the Lakers bench.

Kenny Smith wouldn't.

[ElGee]

As for the team in general, the Magic played out of their minds last year. This includes Pietrus, Hedo, Lewis and even Courtney Lee and Raefer. The 3-point barrage (which cooled off in the Finals) was straight out of a March Madness run. Trying to credit Dwight Howard -- a great player -- with "carrying" his team to the Finals, when a number of his teammates played amazing games throughout the playoffs, is simply disingenuous. It doesn't matter if Howard played with 8 D-league players, if those players shot 50% from 3 and made key contributions for just that one month, they still played that role in the wins, regardless of the name on the back of the jersey.

Ah, the biggest myth of all, that the Magic had a hot hand from three point land in last year's playoffs; in fact, the opposite was true

regular season, they hit 10 a game, at a 38% clip

post season, they hit 8 a game, at a 36% clip

so they actually much worse in the playoffs from three point land, which doesnt fit into the march madness 'they got crazy hot from three point land' narrative

The Lakers didn't beat Orlando because this "March Madness" barrage cooled off. They won because they were simply the better team.

And please, your revisionist history is less than accurate.

In the Boston and Cleveland series they shot .406 from 3 as a team. In the 8 wins, they shot .462 (regular season .407 in wins and .381 overall)

If you don't think that's a hot shooting run, thats fine. They then went 38-115 or .330 in the FInals.

[Basileus777]

The problem with this argument is that defense isn't about individuals. Team defense is about coaching, scheme, and effort. Orlando doesn't have many players who are on paper that are good defenders, but as a team they play well. Howard anchors that defense, but when it comes to defense you can't just judge a supporting cast on paper. How many good defenders did the 07 Spurs have? Duncan, Bowen, and that's pretty much it. And yet that was a great defensive team and Duncan had an excellent supporting cast that year.

[wang000hk]

Realgm is where VC is being underrated...

[_BBIB_]

Having a solid top 3 is one way to win a championship. Having one superstar and 8 solid players who complement the superstar perfectly is another way to win. The Cavs and Magic are proving that right now (just look at their records against the top teams in the league). If Cleveland or Orlando doesn't win it all this year, it WON'T be because they don't have a second star to go along with Lebron/Howard.

So how exactly does Orlando average over 100 points a game with a crappy supporting cast? D12 scores about 20 ppg, averages maybe an assist or two. Where are the other 76 points coming from? Oh yeah!!! It's coming from that crappy supporting cast he has.

I'm sure the counter argument to that will be something like this: Howard attracts quadruple teams, leaving the rest of the team open to shoot uncontested jumpers. This is definitely true to a certain extent, but the majority of the time the Magic run a pick and roll offense with Nelson + Howard or Vince + Howard. Without Nelson and Vince running the team, the Magic would not be where they are now.

Having a top solid 3 wins a championship if those guys are all-star to fringe all-star players. Again the Magic don't have that. And only about twice in 30 years has a team won a championship without it's 2nd best player being worthy of making an all-star game.

You Magic fans can continue to ignore that all you want it doesn't change the reality. And just because they score 100+ PPG doesn't mean anything come post-season time.

Doesn't mean they are doomed to not win a championship but to say the least it would be against all odds.

Realgm is where VC is being underrated...

Problem is you all are acting like we're talking about VC circa 2000-05. He's not that player anymore.

[eyriq]

It is interesting why past all-stars Nelson, Lewis and Carter are all sitting on such depressed statistics this year. You can be opportunistic and make all the arguments the OP is making. You can also be an apologist and point out that each of the those above 3 players have had extreme lows at some point this season and that their statistics are as much a testament to their inconsistencies as to the overall product they bring to the game. Turning over 3/5 of the starting lineup could account for a lot of the inconsistency.

Dwight Howard is the man, no doubt. I think he is easily the 2cd best player in the league as well. However disavowing the rest of the Magic core while also indirectly calling out Otis Smith for putting together a horrible team is not an agenda I'm interested in, nor something that the statistics conclusively support.