RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

[NO-KG-AI]

I have a "clear" 10, but each tier is clear and more fluid to me, and sometimes I can be swayed within the tier, but usually not so much outside of that:

Mike
Russell

Kareem
Wilt

Magic
Bird

Shaq

Hakeem
Duncan

Doctor J

That's usually my 10, and I can accept Kobe in that two, his list of accomplishments is impressive, and though I think someone like KG was a better player, I don't like to get too heavily into "what if" arguments, so I'm comfortable slotting him around 12 or lower.

But like I said, I can flip flop within the tiers, but I'm pretty set on those blocks, so to speak.

I do agree that it gets more interesting after you get all of those out of the way.

Curious Doc, where did you have KG placed?

[Laimbeer]

I have a "clear" 10, but each tier is clear and more fluid to me, and sometimes I can be swayed within the tier, but usually not so much outside of that:

Mike
Russell

Kareem
Wilt

Magic
Bird

Shaq

Hakeem
Duncan

Doctor J

That's usually my 10, and I can accept Kobe in that two, his list of accomplishments is impressive, and though I think someone like KG was a better player, I don't like to get too heavily into "what if" arguments, so I'm comfortable slotting him around 12 or lower.

But like I said, I can flip flop within the tiers, but I'm pretty set on those blocks, so to speak.

I do agree that it gets more interesting after you get all of those out of the way.

Curious Doc, where did you have KG placed?

Curious why you have Bird clearly over Shaq? I rank Bird higher as well, but some subsequent discussion has me thinking they're closer to being on the same tier.

[Baller 24]

2006 List (Based more on peak-play IIRC)

1. Wilt Chamberlain (8 of 17 votes)
2. Michael Jordan (12 of 18 votes)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (15 of 19 votes)
4. Magic Johnson (10 of 19 votes)
5. Larry Bird (9 of 22 votes)
6. Bill Russell (15 of 26 votes)
7. Jerry West (11 of 19 votes)
8. Oscar Robertson (14 of 24 votes)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (13 of 24 votes)
10. Shaquille O\'Neal (16 of 26 votes)
11. Julius Erving (17 of 24 votes)
12. Tim Duncan (15 of 25 votes)
13. Moses Malone (16 of 23 votes)
14. Karl Malone (12 of 21 votes)
15. Bob Pettit (11-10 runoff over Baylor)
16. David Robinson (11 of 22 votes)
17. Elgin Baylor (8 of 20 votes)
18. John Havlicek (8 of 19 votes)
19. Rick Barry (12 of 17 votes)
20. Charles Barkley (14 of 22 votes)
21. Walt Frazier (12 of 26 votes)
22. Kobe Bryant (8 of 22 votes)
23. John Stockton (6 of 20 votes)
24. Scottie Pippen (10 of 19 votes)
25. Kevin Garnett (7 of 15 votes)
26. Isiah Thomas (10 of 14 votes)
27. Artis Gilmore (7 of 18 votes)
28. George Mikan (9 of 16 votes)
29. Clyde Drexler (9 of 19 votes)
30. Patrick Ewing (9 of 16 votes)
31. Gary Payton (8 of 14 votes)
32. George Gervin (9 of 14 votes)
33. Willis Reed (6 of 19 votes)
34. Bob Cousy (7 of 17 votes)
35. Jason Kidd (8 of 15 votes)
36. Sidney Moncrief (5 of 14 votes)
37. Elvin Hayes (10 of 17 votes)
38. Bill Walton (7 of 18 votes)
39. Allen Iverson (10 of 18 votes)
40. Kevin McHale (7 of 17 votes)
41. Bob McAdoo (7 of 16 votes)
42. Dave Cowens (10 of 17 votes)
43. Arydas Sabonis (10 of 18 votes)
44. Wes Unseld (9 of 19 votes)
45. Steve Nash (12 of 19 votes)
46. Nate Thurmond (12 of 18 votes)
47. Billy Cunningham (8 of 21 votes)
48. Dominique Wilkins (6 of 13 votes)
49. Dirk Nowitzki (7 of 18 votes)
50. Dwyane Wade (7 of 16 votes)
51. Reggie Miller (6 of 17 votes)
52. Tracy McGrady (8 of 17 votes)
53. Bob Lanier (7 of 16 votes)
54. Jerry Lucas (9 of 13 votes)
55. Alex English (6 of 14 votes)
56. Robert Parish (7 of 14 votes)
57. Joe Dumars (9 of 19 votes)
58. Dennis Johnson (8-7 runoff over Hill)
59. Grant Hill (11 of 18 votes)
60. Chris Webber (6 of 18 votes)
61. Tiny Archibald (6 of 15 votes)
62. Pete Maravich (7 of 19 votes)
63. Alonzo Mourning (6 of 17 votes)
64. Adrian Dantley (10 of 15 votes)
65. Bernard King (8 of 18 votes)
66. Dikembe Mutombo (8 of 18 votes)
67. James Worthy (9 of 15 votes)
68. George McGinnis (6 of 16 votes)
69. Paul Arizin (8 of 13 votes)
70. Hal Greer (6 of 16 votes)
71. Connie Hawkins (8 of 14 votes)
72. LeBron James (6 of 14 votes)
73. Sam Jones (8 of 12 votes)
74. Dave DeBusschere (8 of 13 votes)
75. David Thompson (6 of 14 votes)
76. Kevin Johnson (5 of 10 votes)
77. Dave Bing (4 of 10 votes)
78. Spencer Haywood (6 of 14 votes)
79. Mel Daniels (4 of 9 votes)
80. Chris Mullin (6 of 10 votes)
81. Dennis Rodman (4 of 10 votes)
82. Bobby Jones (7 of 13 votes)
83. Dan Issel (6 of 12 votes)
84. Lenny Wilkens (4 of 11 votes)
85. Drazen Petrovic (6 of 12 votes)
86. Dolph Schayes (6 of 8 votes)
87. Walt Bellamy (5 of 8 votes)
88. Earl Monroe (10 of 13 votes)
89. Mitch Richmond (6 of 10 votes)
90. Anfernee Hardaway (6 of 11 votes)
91. Shawn Kemp (7 of 13 votes)
92. Fat Lever (4 of 11 votes)
93. Bill Sharman (8 of 11 votes)
94. Paul Pierce (4 of 11 votes)
95. Ray Allen (7-6-4 runoff over Sikma and Carter)
96. Vince Carter (4 of 12 votes)
97. Ben Wallace (7 of 12 votes)
98. Marques Johnson (5 of 14 votes)
99. Jack Sikma (4 of 10 votes)
100. Mo Cheeks (5 of 12 votes)

2008 List (Based on career play)
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10.Julius Erving
11.Jerry West
12.Oscar Robertson
13.Moses Malone
14.John Havlicek
15.Karl Malone
16.Bob Pettit
17.David Robinson
18.Kobe Bryant
19.Walt Frazier
20.Kevin Garnett
21.Elgin Baylor
22.George Mikan
23.Charles Barkley
24.Rick Barry
25.Isiah Thomas

26.Scottie Pippen
27.John Stockton
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Bob Cousy
30.Clyde Drexler
31.Artis Gilmore
32.Gary Payton
33.George Gervin
34.Willis Reed
35.Elvin Hayes
36.LeBron James
37.Dave Cowens
38.Jason Kidd
39.Steve Nash
40.Sidney Moncrief
41.Dirk Nowitzki
42.Kevin McHale
43.Bob McAdoo
44.Wes Unseld
45.Joe Dumars
46.Billy Cunningham
47.Bill Walton
48.Jerry Lucas
49.Dominique Wilkins
50.Allen Iverson

51.Nate Thurmond
52.Dwyane Wade
53.Bob Lanier
54.Alex English
55.Tracy McGrady
56.James Worthy
57.Adrian Dantley
58.Paul Arizin
59.Bobby Jones
60.Grant Hill
61.Robert Parish
62.Sam Jones
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Alonzo Mourning
65.Hal Greer
66.Dikembe Mutombo
67.Dennis Rodman
68.Chris Webber
69.Tiny Archibald
70.Dave DeBusschere
71.Mel Daniels
72.Bernard King
73.Dolph Schayes
74.Earl Monroe
75.George McGinnis

76.Paul Pierce
77.Connie Hawkins
78.Jack Sikma
79.Dave Bing
80.Bill Sharman
81.Pete Maravich
82.Kevin Johnson
83.Larry Nance
84.Ray Allen
85.Chris Mullin
86.Reggie Miller
87.Dan Issel
88.Vince Carter
89.Neil Johnston
90.Penny Hardaway
91.Spencer Haywood
92.Cliff Hagan
93.Chauncy Billups
94.Walt Bellamy
95.David Thompson
96.Lenny Wilkins
97.Mark Aguirre
98.Ben Wallace
99.Bob Dandridge
100.Tim Hardaway

[Dr Positivity]

lol @ Petrovic making the 2006 list

[lorak]

What's so "lol" in that? Sabonis was 43 what's much more strange if only NBA career counted. And if international career also counted so Drazen should be above Sabonis as he was better player in Europe (for example he had more EPOY awards when they both were in their prime).

[Fade-away]

lol @ Petrovic making the 2006 list

why is that funny?

if you guys are really intrested in making the top 100 best Basketball players of all time, players outside of the NBA will also have to be included, i'm thinking about Oscar Schmidt, Nikos Galis or players who only played part of their basketball career in the NBA like Sabonis, Kukoc etc. (definitely Sabonis!)

So far i mostly agree with the picks, though not necessarily in that order but if you're not going to include those players then there's a clear bias

[Dr Positivity]

I'm going to be updating my personal 100 with each thread, in my sign up post on Pg 1. If anyone wants to copy me.

[Laimbeer]

I'm going to be updating my personal 100 with each thread, in my sign up post on Pg 1. If anyone wants to copy me.

Wilt on tier 3 with KG? What are you, the ghost of bastillion? That is harsh!

[ElGee]

I've posted this before but others have asked. Putting it here so it's easier for people to access:

In/Out numbers.

Player -- year -- missed games -- difference with player in lineup -- team MOV with player in lineup
Allen 2007 (27g) 3.8 to -1.7
Allen 2002 (13g) 1.8 to 0.1
Allen 2004 (26g) 1.7 to -0.1
Allen 2008 (9g) -4.2 to 9.8
Barkley 1994 (17g) 7.8 to 6.5
Barkley 1996 (11g) 4.9 to 1.0
Barkley 1997 (29g) 3.4 to 5.7
Barkley 1987 (14g) 2.9 to 0.3
Barkley 1991 (15g) 1.2 to 0.0
Barkley 1995 (14g) 0.1 to 3.9
Baylor 1962 (32g) 4.5 to 4
Baylor 1966 (16g) 0.4 to 3.2
Billups 2007 (12g) 3.3 to 4.6
Bird 1991 (22g) 8.0 to 8.0
Bird 1992 (22g) 3.5 to 4.5
Carter 2001 (7g) 9.5 to 3.1
Carter 2004 (9g) 8.7 to -2.1
Carter 2003 (39g) 3.9 to -4.0
Carter 2002 (22g) -1.0 to -0.7
Cowens 1975 (17g) 2.6 to 6.3
Cowens 1977 (30g) 0.9 to -1.6
Dantley 1985 (26g) 4.3 to 1.3
Dantley 1980 (12g) -0.6 to -6.1
Dantley 1988 (13g) -2.0 to 4.9
Dantley 1983 (59g) -2.1 to -6.0
Dantley 1979 (20g) 4 to 4.1
Dantley Det 1989 (40g) -3.6 to 4.1
Drexler 1990 (9g) 8.3 to 7.2
Drexler 1996 (30g) 1.4 to 0.5
Drexler 1994 (18g) 0.4 to 2.6
Drexler 1993 (33g) -1.0 to 2.7
Dumars 1994 (13g) 7.2 to -6.6
Dumars 1990 (7g) 6.6 to 6.6
Dumars 1995 (15g) 5.7 to -6.2
Dumars 1989 (13g) -0.7 to 7.1
Dumars 1989-1991 (22g) 0.6 to 5.3
Duncan 2005 (16g) 11.2 to 10.0
Duncan 2004-05 (29g) 8.2 to 9.0
Duncan 2004 (13g) 4.7 to 8.0
Duncan 2000 (8g) 0.2 to 6.0
Erving 1973 (12g) 7.1 to 0.6
Erving 1983 (8g)* 6.7 to 8.4
Erving 1978 (9g) -2 to 4.9
Ewing 1987 (19g) 7.1 to -4.6
Ewing 1994-96 (12g) 5.3 to 4.4
Frazier 1976 (23g) -1.1 to -1.5
G. Johnson 1969 (27g) 3.6 to 5.5
Garnett 06-07 (12g) 11.6 to -1.9
Garnett 2009 (25g) 5.3 to 9.1
Garnett 2010 (13g) 4.6 to 4.4
Garnett 2008 (11g) 1.7 to 10.5
Garnett 2011 (11g) 0.1 to 5.4
Gasol 2010 (17g) 4.1 to 5.6
Gasol 2005 (26g) -1.2 to 1.9
Gasol 2007 (23g) -1.8 to -5.6
Gasol LAL 2008 (55g) 6.4 to 11.6
Gasol Mem 2008 (43g) 2.7 to -4.8
Gilmore* 1980 (33g) 2.3 to -1.8
Ginobili 2006 (17g) 3.9 to 7.6
Ginobili 2009 (38g) 0.1 to 4.2
Ginobili 2005 (8g) -6.7 to 7.2
Hakeem 1992 (12g) 10.6 to -0.2
Hakeem 1995-96 (20g) 8.9 to 3.0
Hakeem 1986 (14g) 7.3 to 6.5
Hakeem 1995 (10g) 7.3 to 3.0
Hakeem 1991 (26g) 1.7 to 4.0
Hill 2005 (15g) 6.6 to -1.0
Hill 2000 (8g) 6.4 to 2.1
Hill 1995 (12g) -0.3 to -7.3
Isiah 1991 (34g) 1.3 to 3.8
Iverson 2002 (22g) 7.3 to 3.6
Iverson 2001 (11g) 3.7 to 4.8
Iverson 2006 (10g) 3.7 to -1.4
Iverson 2000 (12g) 2.1 to 1.6
Iverson 2004 (34g) -0.8 to -2.8
Jordan 1992-93 (7g) 11.3 to 8.8
Kareem 1975 (17g) 7.7 to 1.7
Kareem 1978 (20g) 5.8 to 4.2
Kidd 2005 (16g) 8.7 to 0.2
Kidd 2004 (15g) 3.6 to 3.2
Kidd 2000 (15g) 2.2 to 5.6
King 1985 (27g) 8.0 to -2.1
King 1983 (16g) -1.4 to 2.2
King 1984 (6g) 11 to 4.6
KJ 1996 (26g) 4.0 to 1.6
KJ 1993 (33g) 3.7 to 8.2
KJ 1997 (12g) 12.3 to 2.5
KJ 1994 (15g) 7.5 to 6.2
KJ 1990 (8g) 5.5 to 7.6
KJ 1995 (35g) -1.5 to 3.3
Kobe 2004 (17g) 7.2 to 5.4
Kobe 2000 (16g) 4.4 to 9.4
Kobe 2005 (16g) 2.8 to -2.4
Kobe 2006-07 (7g) 2.5 to 1.3
Kobe 2001 (14g) 1.8 to 3.7
Kobe 2010 (9g) -0.5 to 5.1
Lanier 1978 (18g) 5.3 to -0.1
Lanier 1977 (19g) 4.2 to -0.1
Lanier 1976 (12g) 2.4 to -2.3
Lanier 1979 (28g) 0.3 to -2.6
LeBron 2008+10 (13g) 12.5 to 4.1
Magic 1988 (10g) 10.9 to 7.2
Magic 1989 (5g) 10.4 to 7.8
Mar. Johnson 1982 (19g) 3 to 6.2
McGrady 2002 (6g) 17.2 to 2.8
McGrady 2007 (11g) 9.3 to 6.1
McGrady 2004 (15g) 7.8 to -5.6
McGrady 2006 (35g) 7.2 to 1.5
McGrady 2003 (7g) 1.6 to 0.3
McGrady 2008 (16g) 0.1 to 4.7
McHale 1988 (18g) 5.1 to 7.1
McHale 1991 (14g) 4.8 to 6.6
McHale 1986 (13g) 2.6 to 9.9
Miller 1996 (6g) 7.5 to 3.8
Miller RS+PS 1996 (10g) 6.2 to 3.7
Moncrief 1985 (9g) -0.5 to 6.8
Moncrief 1986 (9g) -0.8 to 9
Moses 1978 (25g) 4.8 to -2.7
Moses 1984 (11g) 2.9 to 2.6
Mourning 1996 (12g) 11.0 to 3.0
Mourning 1994 (22g) 9.0 to 2.2
Mourning 1997 (16g) 0.8 to 5.7
Mourning 1998 (24g) 1.7 to 5.4
Mullin 1988 (22g) 4.7 to -7.1
Mullin 1993 (36g) 1.1 to -0.5
Nash 2005-07 (16g) 13.2 to 7.5
Nash 2001 (12g) 6.6 to 5.2
Nash 2009 (8g) 6.3 to 2.5
Odom 2005 (18g) 6.1 to -1.6
Odom 2007 (26g) 5.4 to 1.6
Paul 2010 (37g) 1.8 to -1.6
Paul 2007 (18g) 0.0 to -1.6
Penny 1997 (23g) 10.3 to 2.5
Penny 2000 (22g) 6.4 to 6.9
Pierce 2007 (35g) 5.3 to -1.2
Pierce 2010 (11g) 5.2 to 4.4
Pippen 1994 (10g) 4.2 to 3.6
Pippen 1998 (38g) 3.1 to 8.6
Richmond 1998 (12g) 7.7 to -4.5
Richmond 1993 (37g) 6.9 to -0.1
Robertson 1968 (21g) 14.4 to 2.5
Robertson 1972 (18g) 8.2 to 13
Robertson 1970 (11g) 5.8 to 2.1
Robinson 1992 (14g) 8.0 to 4.7
Rodman 1993 (22g) 8.0 to 0.7
Rodman 1996 (18g) 3.0 to 12.9
Rodman 1997 (27g) 2.8 to 11.7
Rodman 1995 (33g) 1.2 to 6.5
S. Smith 1999 (14g) 5.9 to 4.6
Shaq 2000-01 (11g) 7.7 to 6.5
Shaq 2003 (15g) 7.6 to 3.7
Shaq 2000-02 (25g) 5.7 to 7.0
Shaq 2002 (15g) 5.1 to 8.1
Shaq 1996 (28g) 4.4 to 7.1
Shaq 1998 (28g) 3.5 to 8.7
Shaq 1997 (31g) 2.9 to 5.4
Shaq 2004 (15g) 1.4 to 4.2
Stockton 1998 (18g) 3.4 to 7.3
T. Hardaway 1995 (20g) 4.9 to -4.2
T. Hardaway 2000 (30g) 4.2 to 2.9
T. Hardaway 1993 (16g) 2.2 to -0.6
Thurmond 1967 (16g) 12.7 to 5.4
Wade 2005-06 (12g) 6.2 to 5.7
Wade 2004 (21g) 4.0 to 1.5
Wade 2008 (31g) 3.1 to -7.5
Wade 2007 (31g) 1.5 to -0.4
Wallace 2005 (8g) 7.6 to 4.6
Wallace 2003 (9g) 4.9 to 4.2
Walton 1978 (24g) 13.3 to 10.0
Walton 1977 (17g) 12.6 to 8.4
Walton 1975 (31g) 2.6 to -0.3
Webber 1997 (10g) 3.7 to 2.1
Webber 1998 (11g) 3.5 to 1.1
Webber 2002 (28g) 2.6 to 8.5
Webber 2001 (12g) 0.8 to 5.9
Webber 2003 (15g) -1.5 to 6.2
Webber 1995 (28g) -2.4 to -6.4
West 1971 (13g) 10.9 to 4.5
West 1968 (31g) 6.4 to 7.8
West 1967 (16g) 5.7 to 1.5
West 1969 (21g) 4.9 to 5.4
Wilkins 1993 (11g) 5.9 to -0.1
Wilkins 1992 (40g) 2.3 to -0.4
Wilt 1970 (70g) 0.3 to 2.3
Wilt Phi 1965 (42g) -0.8 to -0.5
Wilt SF 1965 (44g) 3.1 to -4.1

[Fade-away]

So Garnett at 13 then, can't understand that people rate him and his career higher then West, Oscar, Pettit, Moses Malone, he's borderline top 20 imo, great player but not that great.

[Dezmondballins3]

So Garnett at 13 then, can't understand that people rate him and his career higher then West, Oscar, Pettit, Moses Malone, he's borderline top 20 imo, great player but not that great.

yeah i thought he went way to high on here somewhere around 16th-19th would be right but not 13 wow.

[WhateverBro]

So Garnett at 13 then, can't understand that people rate him and his career higher then West, Oscar, Pettit, Moses Malone, he's borderline top 20 imo, great player but not that great.

I'd like to see your arguments for him being borderline top 20, lol?

I think 13ish is right for him. He's been underrated his whole career and ironically it took him playing worse on a better team for people to actually realize how freaklishy good he was during his time with the Timberwolves.

[Laimbeer]

So Garnett at 13 then, can't understand that people rate him and his career higher then West, Oscar, Pettit, Moses Malone, he's borderline top 20 imo, great player but not that great.

yeah i thought he went way to high on here somewhere around 16th-19th would be right but not 13 wow.

This is the biggest WTF moment yet. And Karl just a spot ahead of him is a stretch.

[NO-KG-AI]

Seems like the people that get the most angry about KG being placed high, are the ones that are most likely to disregard research and go into "well I think" or "the wolves weren't that bad, just because" type of arguments, and crap all over the impressive amount of research and number crunching guys like ElGee, drza, Doctor MJ, and MysticBB do.

[WhateverBro]

Seems like the people that get the most angry about KG being placed high, are the ones that are most likely to disregard research and go into "well I think" or "the wolves weren't that bad, just because" type of arguments, and crap all over the impressive amount of research and number crunching guys like ElGee, drza, Doctor MJ, and MysticBB do.

This is exactly what it is. People refuse to acknowledge the numbers presented by Drza for example and would rather continue believing myths on how Garnett is poor in the clutch, not a real defensive anchor and an avarage offensive player. These type of arguments have been destroyed by several posters in the TOP 100 list threads.

[Baller 24]

So Garnett at 13 then, can't understand that people rate him and his career higher then West, Oscar, Pettit, Moses Malone, he's borderline top 20 imo, great player but not that great.

yeah i thought he went way to high on here somewhere around 16th-19th would be right but not 13 wow.

This is the biggest WTF moment yet. And Karl just a spot ahead of him is a stretch.

What's this notion that we HAVE to follow the older lists? The criteria is kind of a blend of both the '06 & '08 lists. In 3 years, opinions have changed, players have grown, and from everything that's been given in terms of explanations, objective evidence, and statistical indications, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with having both this high.

We're less focused on team success and more focused on how an individual played the game of basketball. Team success has a lot more keys than just forecasting it around one significant player, rather it's more of a blend of role players, key plays, and clutch buckets many different individuals. It's either many aren't understanding the criteria that's listed, OR are solely not wanting to go in and understand with an open mind.

[Laimbeer]

^^

Or maybe they just disagree? I didn't go off on the people that voted for KG or Karl, just stating the opinion they are too high, and I'm not alone.

[Rupert Murdoch]

My bad.

[Laimbeer]

Curious what happened to GilmoreFan and Warspite? Or is that a MYOB?

[Gongxi]

I think Kareem's too low, Russell's too high, Kobe's too high, and Karl's too low.

I don't think it's really a newsflash that every single person in the project is going to disagree about some of the rankings. Is there much of a point is stressing it?