Josh Smith/Andrei Kirilenko?

[tsherkin]

Peak AK was way smarter and a better overall defender, I'd take him in this comparison.

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[Ginobili]

Prime Kirilenko is one of the best all-around players of all time.

I might be biased, but I love his game, he never forces things, smooth and impacts on the floor like no one, he`s like a non-stoping machine who is always moving and doing things, either score, pass, defend or whatever. The only trouble I have with him are his injury-prone tendencies and his inconsistent shooting. He is a decent shooter but inconsistent, can be crap on some nights.

Prime Kirilenko is a borderline 16-10-5-3-5 guy.

[Ruhiel]

It's not a popular opinion and goes against stereotypes but...

Kirilenko is more physically gifted than Josh Smith. It doesn't come down to 'brains'.

Kirilenko is taller than Smith and longer and played like it.
Stand still blocks. Josh Smith needs a running start for blocks.
See and pass over defenders with his height. More length to pass over or around guys with bounce passes.
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Dvi1rS5S4[/youtube]
Smith isnt as long and has a harder time dribbling and fending off defenders.
Kirilenko with his length could drive push you off and pass for a 3 all in one motion.

Bigger meaning if he turns the corner he's harder to stop and has that lankiness that lets him finish around the rim with a nice fingerroll.
Smith is smaller and has to full on try to dunk it because he doesnt have the length or finesse to angle in a layup.

Its not brains, you can find plays of them doing similar things within the course of a game but Andrei Kirilenko is more physically gifted. Thus better off the dribble and had easier time doing things such as scoring passing around and over defenses etc. Smith is like a smaller Kirilenko

[Texas Chuck]

no one is denying AK was a great athlete ^^^ but his basketball IQ is still way way better than Smith's. You cant put it all down to physical skills.

[kasino]

Doc
peak not prime AK had a good season but Harping was the 1st option
and then not any other season is he that high on the peaking order on his teams

googled/remembered and he isn't Hedo(who is your prototype point forward)
he isn't much better if any then Prince


so you have one season with AK not truly being the teams 1st option and never having the playmaking ability to consider he was a true point forward a good starter

[CrazyB0y]

how comes that kasino always has a different point of view than every other guy on this forum? and why is that he always clashs with all the knowledgeable posters on this board (some of them have him on ignore already)?

regarding the question: biggest diff. is that Ak47 is the better all around player and its not close

[kasino]

how comes that kasino always has a different point of view than every other guy on this forum? and why is that he always clashs with all the knowledgeable posters on this board (some of them have him on ignore already)?

regarding the question: biggest diff. is that Ak47 is the better all around player and its not close

don't know if I always have a different point of view and some guys I don't think are all that knowledgable but exceptional writers with a lot of history on this site

but if I must peak AK besides being a great defender inconsistent great rebounder for his position never truly being a point forward or a scorer that lead his team in scoring for only 1 season(although Harping was the 1st option) and only had 1 season as a 2nd option would be a teams leading scorer/playmaker/best rebounder for multiple seasons...I'm sorry for not being a lemon I'll try harder

[Dr Pepper]

With AK47 you wished he would do a little more (more aggressive decision making), with Josh Smith you wished he did a lot less (poor shot decisions, overall poor IQ). I was always interested in what Sloan said to AK47 when he retired.

Anyway AK47 is the superior player but Smith has durability and time on his side.

[CrazyB0y]

how comes that kasino always has a different point of view than every other guy on this forum? and why is that he always clashs with all the knowledgeable posters on this board (some of them have him on ignore already)?

regarding the question: biggest diff. is that Ak47 is the better all around player and its not close

don't know if I always have a different point of view and some guys I don't think are all that knowledgable but exceptional writers with a lot of history on this site

but if I must peak AK besides being a great defender inconsistent great rebounder for his position never truly being a point forward or a scorer that lead his team in scoring for only 1 season(although Harping was the 1st option) and only had 1 season as a 2nd option would be a teams leading scorer/playmaker/best rebounder for multiple seasons...I'm sorry for not being a lemon I'll try harder

it's just that you opinion is ALWAYS the opposite of the consensus.

below this thread there is the question about who was higher on the all-time list: Dirk or D-Rob.
and who was the only one voting for D-Rob ? you
this was despite the fact that a buttload of Spurs fans were already present in that thread and even they acknowledged that Dirk has to be higher.
so even his biggest fans go with the main opinion. yet, you disagreed.

is that just a schtick? I saw you clinging to your opinion even after guys like ElGee, EvanZ or mysticbb debunked everything you said.

[Doctor MJ]

It's not a popular opinion and goes against stereotypes but...

Kirilenko is more physically gifted than Josh Smith. It doesn't come down to 'brains'.

I realize that saying the white guy is smarter is a stereotype, but there are times when a particular white guy is clearly smarter than a particular black guy.

I don't understand how you can watch Smith, a poor free throw shooter, take contested long twos with regularity and not see he has judgment issues?

For crying out loud, the man was 3rd int he entire league in shot attempts from 16-23 feet last year. That's ridiculous.

[Doctor MJ]

Doc
peak not prime AK had a good season but Harping was the 1st option
and then not any other season is he that high on the peaking order on his teams

googled/remembered and he isn't Hedo(who is your prototype point forward)
he isn't much better if any then Prince


so you have one season with AK not truly being the teams 1st option and never having the playmaking ability to consider he was a true point forward a good starter

When a player scores more than anyone else on his team despite shooting less that makes it MORE impressive, not less.

No, he wasn't the team's best scorer in future seasons - what did I say before? That he was capable of being the best offensive (and defensive) player on a decent team, and that he could scale well as the team got better. Do you understand the words coming out of my fingers? If not, stop arguing, and start asking questions.

The rest of your post, I don't know what to do with. I'm sorry you'd prefer to have Hedo I guess.

[kasino]

never said it wasn't impressive but that he wasn't the 1st option in scoring, it's impressive but there is no decent team with a 16ppg scorer

one season is enough to credit someone entire career?
a season that came from a team that couldn't make the PS his best season or 2nd best season
do you understand what your writing, or do you just like writing

and Hedo is more of point forward, AK is not
depending on team makeup either is a good choice
not bashing him just he is a good starter on playoff teams that he was on was its 4th best player

[therealbig3]

never said it wasn't impressive but that he wasn't the 1st option in scoring, it's impressive but there is no decent team with a 16ppg scorer

one season is enough to credit someone entire career?
a season that came from a team that couldn't make the PS his best season or 2nd best season
do you understand what your writing, or do you just like writing

and Hedo is more of point forward, AK is not
depending on team makeup either is a good choice

Regarding the bolded: Dude, you're just ignoring evidence here.

The Jazz were a 42-40 team, and missed the playoffs by 1 game. That qualifies as "decent". No, they didn't make the playoffs, but by that logic, the 04 Celtics and the 04 Knicks were better than the 04 Jazz too? The West was just incredibly stacked at the time, and the Jazz were unlucky. They'd easily have been a playoff team in the East.

Why exactly don't you consider AK a point forward, what's the deal here? Just because he doesn't rack up a ton of assists? Did he handle the ball a lot? Yes. Was he an excellent and willing passer? Yes. Did the offense run through him? Yes. Was he a forward? Yes.

What's the issue here?

And everyone is saying that Kirilenko was clearly better at his peak, which, yeah, is usually defined as the best single season of that player's career. Smith's longevity could very well destroy Kirilenko's, nobody's denying that (although Kirilenko was very underrated the last few years).

[kasino]

how comes that kasino always has a different point of view than every other guy on this forum? and why is that he always clashs with all the knowledgeable posters on this board (some of them have him on ignore already)?

regarding the question: biggest diff. is that Ak47 is the better all around player and its not close

don't know if I always have a different point of view and some guys I don't think are all that knowledgable but exceptional writers with a lot of history on this site

but if I must peak AK besides being a great defender inconsistent great rebounder for his position never truly being a point forward or a scorer that lead his team in scoring for only 1 season(although Harping was the 1st option) and only had 1 season as a 2nd option would be a teams leading scorer/playmaker/best rebounder for multiple seasons...I'm sorry for not being a lemon I'll try harder

it's just that you opinion is ALWAYS the opposite of the consensus.

below this thread there is the question about who was higher on the all-time list: Dirk or D-Rob.
and who was the only one voting for D-Rob ? you
this was despite the fact that a buttload of Spurs fans were already present in that thread and even they acknowledged that Dirk has to be higher.
so even his biggest fans go with the main opinion. yet, you disagreed.

is that just a schtick? I saw you clinging to your opinion even after guys like ElGee, EvanZ or mysticbb debunked everything you said.

IDK if I'm always the opposite of the consensus
the mysticbb one I do remember and Moses is better then DIRK and he debunked nothing, funny thing is someone can say you only post the same things but man if you look at these post they either ignore some of your work or just post what they said all over again in a very your wrong I'm right kinda way
don't know the ElGee thread and who is EvanZ
but usually against PG defense doesn't matter or offensive rebounding don't matter
very big fan of Dwight on the all-time list
that current Wade is a great player but in an all-time sense doesn't belong in the top ten in his era or top 20 all-time
etc.
don't know if that goes against the consensus but when I'm in these threads seem like alot of posters agree


I do get this post every once in while tho from a poster like you


CrazyBoy could you post or bump those threads where ElGee/EvanZ/mysticbb debunks me

[kasino]

never said it wasn't impressive but that he wasn't the 1st option in scoring, it's impressive but there is no decent team with a 16ppg scorer

one season is enough to credit someone entire career?
a season that came from a team that couldn't make the PS his best season or 2nd best season
do you understand what your writing, or do you just like writing

and Hedo is more of point forward, AK is not
depending on team makeup either is a good choice

Regarding the bolded: Dude, you're just ignoring evidence here.

The Jazz were a 42-40 team, and missed the playoffs by 1 game. That qualifies as "decent". No, they didn't make the playoffs, but by that logic, the 04 Celtics and the 04 Knicks were better than the 04 Jazz too? The West was just incredibly stacked at the time, and the Jazz were unlucky. They'd easily have been a playoff team in the East.

Why exactly don't you consider AK a point forward, what's the deal here? Just because he doesn't rack up a ton of assists? Did he handle the ball a lot? Yes. Was he an excellent and willing passer? Yes. Did the offense run through him? Yes. Was he a forward? Yes.

What's the issue here?

And everyone is saying that Kirilenko was clearly better at his peak, which, yeah, is usually defined as the best single season of that player's career. Smith's longevity could very well destroy Kirilenko's, nobody's denying that (although Kirilenko was very underrated the last few years).

no it qualifies as a team missing the PS
and by my logic they made the PS with a better chance to win the title(nearly a zero percent chance but more then the Jazz)
could say tough cookies for the Jazz but we praise other players that play in the East when they would be lower ranking teams in the West..I stay consistent do what you can in your league(if that means you have to win more games in the west then so be it) and his entire prime was spent out of the PS

does he rack up alot of assist? no
does he handle the ball more then his guards? no
willing passer yes
did the offense run through him? no Harping then Boozer then Deron by that time their fourth best player

everyone been saying ridiculous things like prime not peak but prime is 16/10/5/3 guy while he never did such
again I'm not bashing the guy didn't say he was a bum or try to demote him to role player as other did to Prince(yet no problem with that). All I said was this was a good starter
good defender on a team not doing anything did some scoring 1st season 9th seed, next season 26 wins or so. That he was an inconsistently great rebounder for his position(going from great to not great)
and a fine playmaker for his position, wouldn't considered him a point forward that like me saying Melo is a point forward and he's a much better playmaker then AK and wouldn't be considered better by no one

[Doctor MJ]

one season is enough to credit someone entire career?
a season that came from a team that couldn't make the PS his best season or 2nd best season
do you understand what your writing, or do you just like writing

If the brevity of his peak was your concern, you should have said to at the beginning. Now it just seems like you're putting it out there as one more excuse without having done the extra googling you should have.

Kirilenko was even better the next year until he experienced the first of several injuries that really brought him down. There's no real cause to be concerned that his career was to brief to treated as legit. He was a phenomenal athlete who didn't move as well after the injuries.

Re: Team couldn't make PS. What did I SAY dude?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Probably because you're not actually trying to understand my point, you're just trying to knock holes in the opinion of someone who doesn't agree with you. Sheesh. If you don't believe Kirilenko's game could scale to a better team, give specific arguments as to why. Simply throwing out there that his best season led to only a decent season, when I explicitly said it was "decent" up front requires no basketball knowledge at all, and persuades no one of anything.

[thizznation]

jazz had a decent season in 03'-04'

[Ruhiel]

It's not a popular opinion and goes against stereotypes but...

Kirilenko is more physically gifted than Josh Smith. It doesn't come down to 'brains'.

I realize that saying the white guy is smarter is a stereotype, but there are times when a particular white guy is clearly smarter than a particular black guy.

And I'm saying AK47 is a better ball handler and just bigger all arouund - helps with passing lane steals, blocks and getting his jumper off easier. The game is easier for a bigger guy like AK. I'm saying Smith isn't as gifted as AK47.

I don't understand how you can watch Smith, a poor free throw shooter, take contested long twos with regularity and not see he has judgment issues? For crying out loud, the man was 3rd int he entire league in shot attempts from 16-23 feet last year. That's ridiculous.

How would you suggest he score?
The Hawks play 5 out and want Smith picking and fading so guards can drive and the paint is wide open. But when the paint is packed you have to kick it out to Smith.

In other words they play Nellie Ball and Smith is their Al Harrington. They want Smith out there. in fact google 'Camp Drew Hawks ajc" and you'll find a public domain pic of the hawks coaches playing 4 out 1 in. They treat Smith as a perimeter player.

Sure people can say he's dumb because he should drive more but he's not as good as AK47 at handling the ball.

People say he makes stupid decisions but what is he supposed to do? Kirilenko had freakish agility for his size and length that Smith doesn't. Smith is/was measured as average NBA length for a 3. 6'8 and 7'0 wingspan -similar to Carmelo, Lebron, Pierce. Kirilenko I'm sure is closer to 6'10 and 7'4.

It's not an issue of stupid vs smart. Kirilenko is clearly more freakish and has been able to handle the ball his whole career, something Smith will never develop.

With his wingspan and height to still have had that agility, AK was more of a physical anomaly than Smith and everything for Smith is harder compared to AK47. Only thing that closes the gap is his vert.

Smith plays PF usually but as a SF he has to work on cuts and PnR action etc. To get a lane to drive around SFs. he is a phenom in transition and defensively, but in halfcourt you have to run big man plays: PnRs with him, post ups. Whereas Kirilenko in his prime could do all that AND drive on PFs and SFs alike.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhe8WgUJGoA[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yajcf-RCaZ8[/youtube]
Whereas Ak47 can drive and twist in the air for a layup. Smith doesn't have that ballhandling or agility.
Its not stupidity its lack of same physical gifts/skill. And fwiw he works hard on his game (working with Olajuwon before Kobe, Dwight, Lebron etc. and this season Idan Ravin) but his ball handling has peaked.

Smith was a similar SF/PF but AK47's "brilliance" came from natural handles AND both are phenoms in transition but AK47 was obviously more physically gifted as far as agility for his superior height and length.

You can't really look at an AK47 tape and say "Josh Smith can do that" without adding the caveat that "he just has to try harder". Hence AK47 was naturally more gifted (ie more freakish), than Smith. ie him jumping 10 inches and dunking it on alley oops, or blocking shots on his tippy toes, or his freakish length on steals.

The play at 0:50 in particular is an offensive play, that Josh Smith has never been able to do in 7-8 seasons. Also the ballhandling and length and agility for the falling wrap around pass at 1:49. And the twisting shot at 5:00 mark, still able to keep balance and shoot over everyone.

Smith can jump high but he isnt as freakish as Kirilenko.

[penbeast0]

how comes that kasino always has a different point of view than every other guy on this forum? and why is that he always clashs with all the knowledgeable posters on this board (some of them have him on ignore already)?

regarding the question: biggest diff. is that Ak47 is the better all around player and its not close

Nothing wrong with that if he has reasons for it; sheep are easy to find, contrarians at least make you think and defend your opinions.

[Texas Chuck]

Ruhiel,

Im not sure why you keep posting so much on that topic. No one is trying to dispute how long,skilled, and athletic AK is. We are simply saying he also understands basketball at a much higher level than does Smith.