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NBA Historical Stats (Since 1984-1985)

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Karl Malone147654853.01352826210.51685310.274978713188.7421496852472085114336928
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James Harden is a superstar

Moderators: tsherkin, nate33, rrravenred, penbeast0, Doctor MJ

Post#1081 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Sun Jan 6, 2013 3:13 pm by Doctor MJ

G35 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
G35 wrote:What's confusing is why would you use such a vague term when you want to discuss only performance?.......


This should not be confusing G35. It's how people talk.



bastillon wrote:let me get this straight, as I was starting this thread almost a year ago I didn't care about Harden's popularity. the reason why I participate in these discussions on the PC Board in the first place is because it's not about popularity contest for anyone. so I have no idea why G35 would wonder who a superstar is. everyone in this thread, be it Harden's fan or his opponent, nobody ever had a doubt about that. it was about playing level all along. now you can have a different standard for that too; for some superstar is can be a top10 player; for the other he needs to be a top5 player, for me it's more about being a high impact player. but let's debate whether Harden's playing level lives up to these expectations, not turn this into a popularity contest.


That's just an excuse. For a board that is so anal retentive and can take things down to the nearest tenth and then USING a word that is BASED around popularity in anyone's definition and then saying you didn't want to discuss popularity was his mistake. Raven does summarize this up the best.......


Your perception is interesting here.

First and foremost: The dude explained what he meant in the OP. It's fine for you to deal with that explanation and reject it's link to the word "superstar", but after that there shouldn't be any confusion here, and I guess that's the thing that just keeps getting me. The thread is a year old and NOW we're talking about confusion? This shouldn't be this difficult. And I suppose that's why I'm so negative at times: I think that even if you were confused before, you aren't confused any more, yet you can't seem to move away from the minor point to focus on the major one. Doing so wouldn't even require you to admit you were wrong necessarily, just that you were tolerating the eccentricities of others. Yet you still don't do it.

Secondly, the allegation of people here being anal. That's a label I don't necessarily reject. I am not however autistic. I am not pragmatically challenged. I understand that there are different senses of a word and that it is foolhardy to push against something just because something might have an odd etymological history. I'm precise where precision is necessary and supple otherwise...or at least that's what I try to be.
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Post#1082 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Sun Jan 6, 2013 3:30 pm by NO-KG-AI

G35, you really are frustrating. I can tell you are an intelligent guy, and when you take a stance on someone, you could really back it up easily, but you seem to take the most mind boggling route to do it, and it leaves me scratching my head.
rrravenred wrote:Stick that in your superior advanced-calculus pipe, and smoke it, you stat-headed Garnett stan...
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Post#1083 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Sun Jan 6, 2013 4:27 pm by G35

Doctor MJ wrote:
Your perception is interesting here.

First and foremost: The dude explained what he meant in the OP. It's fine for you to deal with that explanation and reject it's link to the word "superstar", but after that there shouldn't be any confusion here, and I guess that's the thing that just keeps getting me. The thread is a year old and NOW we're talking about confusion? This shouldn't be this difficult. And I suppose that's why I'm so negative at times: I think that even if you were confused before, you aren't confused any more, yet you can't seem to move away from the minor point to focus on the major one. Doing so wouldn't even require you to admit you were wrong necessarily, just that you were tolerating the eccentricities of others. Yet you still don't do it.

Secondly, the allegation of people here being anal. That's a label I don't necessarily reject. I am not however autistic. I am not pragmatically challenged. I understand that there are different senses of a word and that it is foolhardy to push against something just because something might have an odd etymological history. I'm precise where precision is necessary and supple otherwise...or at least that's what I try to be.


This is the OP (and let me be clear I didn't get into this thread until more recently so all I saw was the topic title.)

bastillon wrote:I've been watching this guy ever since the start of this season. James Harden is a superstar. he doesn't have flashy raw numbers, but he doesn't have a flaw in his game. he's black Manu Ginobili who's gonna be in the league for a LONG time. dude will rock this league for years to come.

I don't see where he defined what a superstar was or that he only was going to refer to stats. He said that Harden is the "black Manu Ginobli". Is Ginobli a superstar? I don't think so. That is as much of a definition as I can ascertain from the OP. He said he was a superstar and he compared him to another 6th man. I think that leaves a lot to interpretation.

one thing in particular brought my attention - how rarely he makes any mistakes. he doesn't force illadvised shots. he doesn't turn the ball over despite being primarily a creator. he shoots tons of free throws. in these categories dude is sensational in a way unseen in NBA history. he commits 1.5 TOV while going for 4 apg and being a shot creator - unseen. he shoots 7.5 FTA and 10 FGA which gives you a Dwight Howard ratio of FTA/FGA. there have been many guys in NBA history who shot this many free throws... but they also shot FGA twice as often - unseen. combine all of that and you're left with 130+ ORtg. prime Steve Nash or prime Charles Barkley... came close to this kind of efficiency. I don't believe Harden will be able to maintain this level of play but either way with his style of play efficiency will be through the roof. right now he's playing at efficiency unseen in NBA history.


So I'm not confused. I think the OP used sensationalism in his title to attract attention to his topic. Because that's how people are with their thread titles. They exaggerate in the title to get attention. The use of the word "superstar" is in itself used to promote the subject:

In the 1980s and 1990s, entertainment publicity tactics have become "more subtle and sophisticated", such as using press releases, movie "junkets, and community activities. These promotional efforts are targeted and designed using market research, "to increase the predictability of success of their media ventures." In some cases, publicity agents may create "provocative advertisements" or make an outrageous public statement to "trigger public controversy and thereby generate "free" news coverage



I'm just going to disagree with the topic title that right now James Harden is not a superstar even in performance.

What's confusing to me is what are the minimum's that defines a player as "performance superstar"?

Top 5 in PER? Top 10?
Top 5 in TS%? Top 10?
Top 20 in ORtg/Drtg?
Top 5 in PPG?

How does Houston's high pace affect Hardens stats seeing as the Rockets are #1 in the league in pace by a significant margin?

It would be nice to know so then we can also define who else is an up and coming superstar.......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Post#1084 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Sun Jan 6, 2013 4:35 pm by G35

G35 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Your perception is interesting here.

First and foremost: The dude explained what he meant in the OP. It's fine for you to deal with that explanation and reject it's link to the word "superstar", but after that there shouldn't be any confusion here, and I guess that's the thing that just keeps getting me. The thread is a year old and NOW we're talking about confusion? This shouldn't be this difficult. And I suppose that's why I'm so negative at times: I think that even if you were confused before, you aren't confused any more, yet you can't seem to move away from the minor point to focus on the major one. Doing so wouldn't even require you to admit you were wrong necessarily, just that you were tolerating the eccentricities of others. Yet you still don't do it.

Secondly, the allegation of people here being anal. That's a label I don't necessarily reject. I am not however autistic. I am not pragmatically challenged. I understand that there are different senses of a word and that it is foolhardy to push against something just because something might have an odd etymological history. I'm precise where precision is necessary and supple otherwise...or at least that's what I try to be.


This is the OP (and let me be clear I didn't get into this thread until more recently so all I saw was the topic title.)

bastillon wrote:I've been watching this guy ever since the start of this season. James Harden is a superstar. he doesn't have flashy raw numbers, but he doesn't have a flaw in his game. he's black Manu Ginobili who's gonna be in the league for a LONG time. dude will rock this league for years to come.

I don't see where he defined what a superstar was or that he only was going to refer to stats. He said that Harden is the "black Manu Ginobli". Is Ginobli a superstar? I don't think so. That is as much of a definition as I can ascertain from the OP. He said he was a superstar and he compared him to another 6th man. I think that leaves a lot to interpretation.


one thing in particular brought my attention - how rarely he makes any mistakes. he doesn't force illadvised shots. he doesn't turn the ball over despite being primarily a creator. he shoots tons of free throws. in these categories dude is sensational in a way unseen in NBA history. he commits 1.5 TOV while going for 4 apg and being a shot creator - unseen. he shoots 7.5 FTA and 10 FGA which gives you a Dwight Howard ratio of FTA/FGA. there have been many guys in NBA history who shot this many free throws... but they also shot FGA twice as often - unseen. combine all of that and you're left with 130+ ORtg. prime Steve Nash or prime Charles Barkley... came close to this kind of efficiency. I don't believe Harden will be able to maintain this level of play but either way with his style of play efficiency will be through the roof. right now he's playing at efficiency unseen in NBA history.


So I'm not confused. I think the OP used sensationalism in his title to attract attention to his topic. Because that's how people are with their thread titles. They exaggerate in the title to get attention. The use of the word "superstar" is in itself used to promote the subject:

In the 1980s and 1990s, entertainment publicity tactics have become "more subtle and sophisticated", such as using press releases, movie "junkets, and community activities. These promotional efforts are targeted and designed using market research, "to increase the predictability of success of their media ventures." In some cases, publicity agents may create "provocative advertisements" or make an outrageous public statement to "trigger public controversy and thereby generate "free" news coverage



I'm just going to disagree with the topic title that right now James Harden is not a superstar even in performance.

What's confusing to me is what are the minimum's that defines a player as "performance superstar"?

Top 5 in PER? Top 10?
Top 5 in TS%? Top 10?
Top 20 in ORtg/Drtg?
Top 5 in PPG?

How does Houston's high pace affect Hardens stats seeing as the Rockets are #1 in the league in pace by a significant margin?

It would be nice to know so then we can also define who else is an up and coming superstar.......
I'm so tired of the typical......
G35



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Post#1085 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Sun Jan 6, 2013 4:51 pm by tsherkin

kaitanuva wrote:Wow a lot of you guys are saying Harden doesn't have a mid range game. Are you guys sure you are watching Rockets games?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... qCY#t=139s


You realize that a YouTube video doesn't ever prove ANYTHING, right? And you also realize that a single game likewise doesn't constitute a sample sufficient to prove anything?

Then let's look at that series of clips in particular:

1) takes a step-back 22-footer with a bit of a fade, moving laterally but gaining no ground towards the rim from where he started that set and the defense pressured. That's not a good shot. It went in, of course, but that's a) not really a "mid-range" shot, it's a perimeter shot b) it's a contested perimeter two-pointer, which is a bad shot.

They had an intentional foul at the end of the game which led to a pair of free throws.

Other than that, what else is in the clip, looking back from before where you time-linked? Pick-and-roll, fouled inside of the paint at the nadir of the circle. It was also a brutal travel.

Transition layup, and-one.

Bad iso set against Waiters where, under no real pressure, he loses the handle twice before putting up a desperation 3 against the shot clock, hitting is as the buzzer sounds.

Put up a left-wing 3.

That video is about the worst example possible for displaying Harden's mid-range game.
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Post#1086 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Sun Jan 6, 2013 5:29 pm by tsherkin

G35, why are you quibbling over this? What do you hope to accomplish?

bast made a post discussing Harden's play, made a ballsy prediction and now Harden is playing at a level that barely anyone in the league is matching. That's what we're discussing, in tandem with relative comparisons to specific players and so forth.

Getting hung up on a term that was initially used in the thread 11 months ago seems kind of pointless to me.

EDIT: Hell, YOU have been posting in this thread since the beginning of November, at least. Where was your indignation of bast's diction then? Why is it suddenly relevant now?
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Post#1087 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Mon Jan 7, 2013 10:10 pm by kaitanuva

tsherkin wrote:
kaitanuva wrote:Wow a lot of you guys are saying Harden doesn't have a mid range game. Are you guys sure you are watching Rockets games?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... qCY#t=139s


You realize that a YouTube video doesn't ever prove ANYTHING, right? And you also realize that a single game likewise doesn't constitute a sample sufficient to prove anything?

Then let's look at that series of clips in particular:

1) takes a step-back 22-footer with a bit of a fade, moving laterally but gaining no ground towards the rim from where he started that set and the defense pressured. That's not a good shot. It went in, of course, but that's a) not really a "mid-range" shot, it's a perimeter shot b) it's a contested perimeter two-pointer, which is a bad shot.

They had an intentional foul at the end of the game which led to a pair of free throws.

Other than that, what else is in the clip, looking back from before where you time-linked? Pick-and-roll, fouled inside of the paint at the nadir of the circle. It was also a brutal travel.

Transition layup, and-one.

Bad iso set against Waiters where, under no real pressure, he loses the handle twice before putting up a desperation 3 against the shot clock, hitting is as the buzzer sounds.

Put up a left-wing 3.

That video is about the worst example possible for displaying Harden's mid-range game.


Someone clearly has an agenda against Harden.

1. That's a definition of a "mid-range" shot. Not a layup or a 3 pointer = mid-range shot. It was in fact not a "contested" shot. Harden faked the defender out of his boots and cleared about 2 feet worth of space for a nice uncontested jumper. An uncontested jumper is a high percentage shot, even if it is a 22 footer. The only "contest" Gee has on Harden at that moment is fingertips a few inches from his face. Any good NBA shooter laughs at that kind of "contest".

2. A travel? Are you sure you're not just looking at that video with the obvious intention of trying to find instances of where he travels because of his supposed notoriety? Take off your bias fogged glasses and you'll clearly see that's not a travel. Gather, one, two, swing arms up, foul.

3. Oh yeah, let's pretend every NBA star always manages to put a high percentage shot 100% of the time. Someone's getting real nitpicky.

4. No that play is the perfect example of a player's mid range game. Paint is packed with zone defense, end of the game, so layups and bail-out fouls are out of the question. A step back 3 is just silly and a low percentage shot. Isolation. So does Harden deliver the dagger to the game in the midst of all this pressure with a mid range shot?

Yes, this one clip does not prove anything. It is just a good example of what I've been watching all season and what you clearly haven't been. Harden may not have the complete arsenal of "mid range game" that you so badly want him to display for you, but he has mastered the few moves he has (namely crossover J, step back J) that he doesn't really need to at the moment since it is winning us games (yes, I agree it would be great for him to show a fadeaway, floater, whatever the hell you have in mind for a mid range game, in the future, but give the ****ing dude a break, he's 23 years old).

Or you can even look at it from another perspective. Do you know why you haven't seen much of a mid range game from him? He doesn't freaking need it! The dude gets to the rim at will, shoots the 3 so well, and gets to the foul line 10x+ a game. Do you even remember why this dude is the epitome of efficiency? He takes the most efficient shots-the layup, the 3 point shot, the foul shot are ALL more efficient than a mid range shot.
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Post#1088 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Mon Jan 7, 2013 10:15 pm by Doctor MJ

kaitanuva wrote:Someone clearly has an agenda against Harden.


If you just look around a bit at tsherkin's posts in this thread, you'll see he's spending at least as much time arguing for Harden than against. You need to understand that you're in a position so extreme that you can't read the opinion of a moderate without assuming they are biased.
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Post#1089 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Tue Jan 8, 2013 2:27 pm by tsherkin

Doc MN said most of what I would have, and much more deftly at that.

I will add that if you define anything that isnt a 3 or a layup as a mid-range shot, you need to fix your definition.
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Post#1090 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Tue Jan 8, 2013 9:50 pm by RubiosBeard

Just broke Moses Malones franchise record for consecutive 25+ point games. Dude can't be kept out of the paint.
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Post#1091 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:32 pm by Krodis

RubiosBeard wrote:Just broke Moses Malones franchise record for consecutive 25+ point games. Dude can't be kept out of the paint.

Tied, I believe, but impressive anyway.

Predictable huge game today against the depleted Lakers.
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Post#1092 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:36 pm by UGA Hayes

James Harden has to be one of the best players ever at those two steps you get after picking up the dribble. The way he does it, its practically a signature move.
Image
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Post#1093 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:45 pm by Krodis

Back up to 4th in the league in scoring after tonight, and has the Rockets pretty safely as a playoff team at this point, only a few games out of the 4 seed.

27-5-4 on 60% TS% is superstar-esque.
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Post#1094 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Tue Jan 8, 2013 10:52 pm by NinjaSheppard

Krodis wrote:Back up to 4th in the league in scoring after tonight, and has the Rockets pretty safely as a playoff team at this point, only a few games out of the 4 seed.

27-5-4 on 60% TS% is superstar-esque.




26-5 on 60 TS has been done by three players

LeBron James, Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

James Harden is trying to make it four players and 10 combined seasons.

Superstar-esque might be understating it
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Post#1095 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:02 am by CKRT

I feel like 26-5 is pretty arbitrary though. I understand the thought process behind it, just feels silly.
lilojmayo wrote:Juice is not a chucker, like say James Harden
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Post#1096 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:11 am by Dr Positivity

He'd be a nice longshot MVP bet at this point. Rockets are 21-14, 2011 Bulls were 23-12 after 35 games and if it was anywhere close, Lebron and Durant playing with all-stars would hurt them in comparison to Harden who's 2nd leading scorer is Parsons
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Post#1097 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:28 am by Krodis

Harden's consistency has been impressive lately. During the 13 game stretch of 25 or more, he's averaged around 30 a game despite not scoring more than 33 in any single game.
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Post#1098 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:33 am by Doctor MJ

CKRT wrote:I feel like 26-5 is pretty arbitrary though. I understand the thought process behind it, just feels silly.


i think this is a good point so I instead did the same search with 25-5. It's STILL only LeBron, Jordan, Bird, and Harden.

Then I did it for 24-5. One new guy did it once: Wilt.

Then I did it for 23-5. Two new guys come in who did it once: Magic & Kareem.

I'm getting more awestruck by the game.
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Post#1099 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:41 am by rrravenred

True enough. But 18 players have done 25 points on .600 TS% or better including such luminaries as Glen Rice, Kiki Vanderweghe and Chris Mullin. You narrow that further by adding AST% > 20 and you begin to get into more select company with Barkley, Lebron, MJ and Bird.

Having said that, I don't know how much you can claim Harden as a peer with those players on the basis of the numbers alone.

The best that can (at this stage) be said of Harden's season is that he's laid the foundation for a pretty impressive career if he can maintain this pace.
ElGee wrote:You, my friend, have shoved those words into my mouth, which is OK because I'm hungry.


Got fallacy?
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Post#1100 Re: James Harden is a superstar
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:41 am by NO-KG-AI

He doin his thang.

That's all the analysis I have left for Harden.
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